Leadership pecking order in the Legions

[Conn Eremon]

Gigantic wrestling match between Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Dark Angels and that one guy from the Blood Angels?

[Kol Saresk]

No, wait, you can figure that out. It's more like Harley-Davidson where all the wires are black.

[Ordo Machinum]

 

 

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/mommamoon/mommamoon1112/mommamoon111200003/11782973-pile-of-tangled-ethernet-wires.jpg

 

 

No, wait, you can figure that out. It's more like Harley-Davidson where all the wires are black.

 

 

 

It's all so clear to me now... thank you.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't think there was a lot of talk of overlap between FW and BL, and the writers just assumed each company was like the 40K counter parts.

[Kol Saresk]

Yes and no. Now, according to Forgeworld, they are trying to reconcile the fluff with each other. As far as Betrayal, it seems like they did a decent job for the most part. The Death Guard were split into Seven Grand Companies which were then further divided into sub-formations. The Sons of Horus were nothing but Companies, with occasional detachments known as warbands able to be put together at the spur of the moment with either some elements of the origin company, or with various elements from several companies.

 

The Ultramarines in particular, follow the Pre-Primarch method of organization, with the exception that the top command tier is split between four Tetrarchs.

 

The Word Bearers..... Don't really know. In The Battle for the Abyss, the picture that is painted is that the standard Chapter is 1,000 strong split into ten companies of one hundred, with the only exception being the Chapter of the Void, which was described as being the smallest Chapter at 700 and being mostly composed of their psykers and was basically their R&D department. But then in The First Heretic, we see the Chapter of the Serrated Sun, which at the beginning, only numbered 3 Companies of 100 Astartes each. By the time the Pilgrimage is completed, only fifty are left. These fifty become the Gal Vorbak, who we then see start to wear red-black with silver trim, very similar to what will be the Betrayer Red of Post-Istvaan V. Now, there is mention of other companies joining the Chapter, so it can be inferred that at the very least, the Serrated Sun was raised back to original fighting strength of three companies. However, if Battle for the Abyss is to be believed, they were most likely increased to the 1,000 divided into 10 Companies mark. Coincidentally, this is also where we see a divergence between current Forgeworld and BL fluff. In The First Heretic, only the Gal Vorbak are described as wearing the red-black and silver. But from the sneak peak of the video, it seems anyone who was a member of the Chapter of the Serrated Sun wore the colors of the Gal Vorbak.

 

Funnily enough, both are possible. For while we see Astartes wearing the Lying Grey in the same Expedition Fleet as the Gal Vorbak, I don't specifically recall anything saying the Grey Word Bearers belonged to the Serrated Sun. So it could go either way.

 

But yeah, essentially for small details like Deathshroud and Catulan Reavers numbers, and the aforementioned color scheme thingymabobbyjig, Forgeworld is doing a good job of keeping consistent with BL's fluff from what I've seen, while still adding their own flavor into the mix.

[facmanpob]

Even company size is flexible. In the story The Lion, the DA group 6 companies (orders) together for a mission and someone states this would be 30,000 marines. At first reading I was imagining the term "Orders" was referring to chapters, not companies. Then other DA stories seemed to use "orders" for companies. In Unremembered Empire, there's a reference to a DA company being 5,000-strong, which would fit with the earlier Lion story of 6 companies equaling 30,000-strong.

I think the Dark Angels are suffering due to the fact that they have so far had 5 different writers - Scanlon, Lee, Thorpe, A D-B, Abnett - all putting their own different slant on things. In Call of the Lion they are organised into Chapters of roughly 1000 marines, with companies as a sub-unit. Chapters are also referred to in Descent of Angels, but appear to have been completely dropped by the later short stories.

 

Yes and no. Now, according to Forgeworld, they are trying to reconcile the fluff with each other.

Laurie Goulding (BL editor) has basically said the same on The First Expedition forum. The initial novels were done in somewhat of a vacuum, but more recently they've been trying to reconcile everything so that it makes sense, to the extent that the collector's editions of the earlier novels have fluff changes in them to bring them in line with the later novels. As an example, Laurie asked the TFE people for any fluff inconsistencies in Descent of Angels, and the ones that were picked up (such as Invincible Reason being described as a battlecruiser) were amended in the Collector's Edition.

[Kol Saresk]

Well the other thing with the DA ithat they've also been in five different time periods. However, once we hit Fallen Angels, the issue should really be resolved since the Lion is no longer new to commanding a Legion, but has been in command for at least a century. Any and all changes should have been fixed by now.

[Messanger of Death]

The pecking order of the Imperial Fists doesn't seem to follow the logic that the Captains of the oldest Companies are more senior. For example we have;

 

Archamus, Master of Dorn's Huscarl Retinue

Sigismund, Captain, 1st Company

Camba-Diaz, Captain, Second Company

Efried, Captain, Third Company

Amandus Tyr, Captain, Sixth Company

Pertinax, Captain, 14th Company

Felix Cassander, Captain, 42nd Company

Alexis Pollux, Captain, 405th Company, Master of Retribution Fleet

 

When Dorn sent Sigismund and Camba-Diaz to Mars, it was Camba-Diaz that was in command (Collected Visions) as he provided a steady influence on Sigismund (Mechanicum). Also, Pollux was the Master of the Retribution Fleet. Yet he was Captain of the 405th Company, while Tyr was Captain of 6th Company. Suggesting that it is the skills of a leader that determine seniority within the VIIth Legion.

 

Also need to consider those personnel not included in the structure of the Companies such as Archamus. We know that the Honour Guards of the 41st Millennium are made of some of a Chapters most skilled and experienced warriors/tacticians. If the same holds true for the Horus Heresy then it would be safe to say that Archamus would be a senior individual within the Legion.

 

Just some food for thought.

 

Addit - there are other ranks within the Imperial Fists Legion such as Marshal, Siegemaster and Legion Seneschals. What place these hold within the Legion has not yet been established. Horus Heresy: Betrayal suggests that a Marshal is the equivalent of a Lieutenant Commander, who is in command of a Battalion.

[Greyall]

Aye, in the case of the Blood Angels, the Sanguinary Guard Leader (Azkaellon) seems to have rank seniority - or at least equality - over the 1st Company Captain.

[The Pyre]

 

When Vulkan took over the Legion he re-organised it into seven "realms", named after the seven sanctuary cities. Each of them were under the command of a Lord Protector under which a number of line companies of around 120 were formed. Apart from the specialist, they followed a simplified ranking system from captain to lieutentant to master sergeant, to sergeant, to legionary. With seniority being length of service, out of combat though they were very informal. Each of the realms had a core of it's own firedrakes

 

 

This seems to be correct for the Salamanders the Realms are refered to in the new Codex space marines as "Warrior lodges" and Each of the Lodges strangly enough was represented in the Pyre guard by a Terran vetran as his personal guard. who would seem are chosen because they are the most voliatile. Numentor is his equery also. As far as i can see from the books only mentions of chapters are refered to the Specialist groups such as the Entire companies of flamer wielding troops in Promethiun Sun or the Captain of the 26th company who are entirely forward recon company. but then again more maybe explained in Book 2 from FW its not in my hands yet.

[Emperor's Furor]

There's a chance, that if the wording in the latest Scars episode is correct that the battalion sized level of command for White Scars are called a "Horde".

[Conn Eremon]

Of course it is, because what the White Scars really needed was more super obvious Mongolian themes.

 

Now I'm expecting the Khagan's elite Horde to be called the Golden Horde.

[Kol Saresk]

No, see there they'll finally get subtle and just to screw with people, they'll call them the Michigan 1st Cavalry with Captain Custus in charge.

[Conn Eremon]

"Oh, well that's actually surprisingly origi--"

 

"For the Golden Horde!"

 

"GOD :cuss ING DAMN IT."