Fluff Discussion: The Tyrant's Strength

[Shifte]

Hey folks!

 

Lately, I've been contemplating the military strength of the Red Corsairs. To cut a long story short, I'm specifically curious about the forces available to Huron Blackheart at the opening of the Thirteenth Black Crusade. Obviously these sort of figures aren't going to be specific - but does anyone have any thoughts, insights or quotes which might elaborate upon the military might of the Corsairs? Even if it is a vague; "More than faction X, less than faction Y" sort of thing. This is more about scale and Galactic power, rather than hard numbers.

 

I'm specifically interested in;

 

- Their fleet size.

- The number of Space Marines who have signed up.

- The number Titans they might have.

[Vesper]

Huron's Red Corsairs are second only in strength to Abaddon's Black Legion. As far as I know, they are more or less the size of a Legion.

[Excessus]

So all the legions are fractured into warbands, but the young renegade pirate guy has legion numbers? Isn't that a bit backwards, GW? :P

[Lucien Eilam]

I'd say, in terms of pure numbers, more than any Loyalist Chapter but far less than Abaddon has at his command. Huron fled Badab with less than 200 Astral Claws but, by 980999.M41, the timeline says:

 

"Rumours report Huron Blackheart has grown his group of renegades as large as the Space Marine Legions of old."

 

Although whether that's counting just Space Marines or also includes various Traitor Guard, mutants, etc. isn't clear. And they are just rumours. I think it's probably safe to say "enough manpower, of whatever variety you want, for anything you could ever think of in a tabletop context".

 

They don't necessarily all identify as Red Corsairs, I'm sure there would be a bunch of allied warbands maintaining some degree of independence.

 

Their fleet is reportedly "vast", and includes everything from Imperial Navy ships to captured Marine Strike Cruisers to Heresy-era Battle-Barges. It will be much bigger and considerably more flexible than a Space Marine Chapter's, free from codex-imposed limits. They have a Ramilles star-fort, Hell's Iris, as a base.

 

I'm not convinced they'd have any Titans at all - they're fleet-based pirates and raiders, they probably don't have time to hang around deploying Titans, or much in the way of super-heavies at all. If they have any, I'd imagine them to be mothballed waiting for whatever campaign Huron is ultimately planning towards.

 

In terms of quality and supplies, I don't think they control a Forge World or anything like that. They'd be heavily reliant on what they can capture in raids, and outside their elites probably less well-equipped and maintained than the average Loyalist Chapter. At the bottom of the pecking order you probably have unproven Space Marines who turned renegade when faced with being harvested for their gene-seed, were stripped of any desirable equipment, and have to count every bolt shell they fire from their knackered, rusty old boltguns.

 

AD-B's Blood Reaver features a visit to Hell's Iris.

[caboosebe]

Fluff:

- had 3500 Astral Claws before declared  Excommunicate Traitoris.
- had 2 other chapters that allied with him during the fight with the Imperium

- new fallen chapters/space marines are more likely to go to the Red Corsairs then Old Legions because of proximity / they are looked down upon by Old Legions (most of the time)

- Creation of new Chaos Space Marines form gene-seed in a Warp Rift where time could be moving slower or faster then realspace.

 

So

I would say, losing many of his own, becoming pirate, getting new renegades, even giving Blood Tournaments and not claiming those soldiers for himself (meaning he doesn't need them) I would say his current standing on able Astartes is 2000 at least.

Ofcourse nobody really has hard data on it. 

[Sception]

Aren't there some key Word Bearer sub-factions that are currently thrown in with Huron as well, or didI just Iimagine that?

[Tenebris]

And he has Titans, hell he even has one as his personal guardian over his throne...

 

I think it is safe to assume that Huron has around 3000+ astartes at his command, a demilegio of Titans, the ships to carry all this and perhaps hundreds of thousands of human warriors, equivalent to Guardsman in kit and skill and again the ships to carry them. But his true power now lies in his value as a patron, as a sponsor. 

 

Trough his influence he can reward many would be ambitious space marines and human commanders which actively seek his patronage. This individuals than become allies of some sort and with this Huron not only increased his power base but he also gained a valuable ally and probably another skilled lieutenant. Count also xeno mercenaries, pirates of all types and millions of dregs which are needed to operate so many ships and support so many astartes, it is understandable that Huron is indeed a major player that can take on his own the likes of the entire Black Templars chapter, for I presume that in astartes numbers alone he is very close to the scions of Dorn. 

 

On a side note I doubt that he comes even close to the power and numbers at Abaddon's fingertips yet for the purpose of comparation Huron has the power and the numbers to rival one of the four lieutenants of Abaddon. 

[Shifte]

Just to give a bit of context:

 

A Black Crusade (40k chaos rpg) game I ran was set within the Maelstrom. I've been considering starting it back up again, and I liked the idea of having the Red Corsairs marshal their forces for a "Red Crusade" - effectively tagging into the 13th Black Crusade from another front, and attempting to use the turmoil and distraction caused by Abaddon's efforts for their own ends. I based this off of the current fluff which suggests Huron is 'waiting for something' and 'readying his forces'. I also like the idea of heavily involving the Maelstrom-based Word Bearers and perhaps having Kor Phaeron ally with the Tyrant. My thoughts are that Huron's goals could be to take over the systems which are traditionally inhabited by the Maelstrom Warders, whilst Kor Phaeron might be seeking to drastically increase the size of the Maelstrom anomaly itself.

 

In my own mind, I had put Huron down as being able to call upon 20-30k Astartes. I suspected about a third of these would be Red Corsairs, with the rest being allies and mercenaries who could join him temporarily. Does anyone think these numbers are way off?

[the jeske]

So all the legions are fractured into warbands, but the young renegade pirate guy has legion numbers? Isn't that a bit backwards, GW?

yes his forces number 100k dudes. Which is mind blowing , considering he does it A near the WB [normaly no one force him to build up to this says] B takes him less then abadon to build and he starts with a much smaller force [like 200+dudes] C Chaos is suppose to be broken up in to smaller forces , but here we have a dude with a legion+ size force [some legions were smaller then 100k].

This is also loltastic considering all the BL fluff , because if he realy has so many marines and the means to carry them , why would he need an ultra small[well compering to 100k marines. I know the fluff says that 10 marines can subdue a planet] force of NL ?

All in all , he is like the main man of the main man . Better then abadon . I mean think about , legion size forced and he isn't even marked and it takes him ultra small time to pull off. this primarch level stuff. G-man did worse then him.

[Brother Heinrich]

I could easily see his forces rivaling the might of the old legions, if he has the means to produce new Astartes, you can be he's making full advantage of that. True they may not be up to the quality of their loyalist counterparts and the veterans of the long war, but they're space marines nonetheless. I think people get to focused on the "1,000 Space Marines in a Chapter," Huron is far from any restrictions now, he doesn't have to play games like the Templars and Wolves and fudge numbers for his Administratum tithes. Huron is a chaos lord, and like all chaos lords they have an eternal thirst for power. Hell in Blood Reaver he sacks the fortress monastery of the Marines Errant and steals their entire stock of geneseed. That raid alone furnished him with probably over 1,000 progenoids with which to make even more Astartes. Huron is playing to win, thats why he gets respect from the old Legionnaires, he is a force to be reckoned with and he only grows more powerful with each passing year.

 

On the other side, it seems as if the traitor legions themselves are rather behind the power curve. Many warbands have not actively recruited for centuries and in Soul Hunter Talos remarks that Abbadon has had to buffer his dwindling forces with demonic allies, which would indicate that even Abbadon doesn't have the means to readily produce new Astartes, most likely due to geneseed corruption. The only traitor legions who seem to still actively recruit are the Iron Warriors, who use the same methods as Huron, and possibly the Alpha Legion, though where they're concerned it's anybodies guess. The four God-Devoted legions are basically so depleted by their own psychotic methods of warfare that they're all but a memory nowadays, The Word Bearers are possibly still creating Astartes but I haven't read any of the novels so feel free to enlighten me, and the Night Lords are dwindling as well, though we only get a narrow perspective from the books based on 10th company, it's possible that they still recruit, though most likely they simply take in other renegades who share their mindset.

 

So when you look at the grand scope, Huron is the up-and-comer. He's got the vision, he has the means, and most importantly, he has the success record to back him up. That kind of magnetism can't be ignored, whether or not Abaddon achieved the goals of his black crusades, many traitor Astartes view him as a continual failure, whereas in Huron, they see a rising star.

[Lucien Eilam]

 

In my own mind, I had put Huron down as being able to call upon 10-20k Astartes. I suspected about a third of these would be Red Corsairs, with the rest being allies and mercenaries who could join him temporarily. Does anyone think these numbers are way off?

 

That seems fine. Personally, I'd steer clear of specific numbers. They're never going to be all in one place at the same time, and maybe not even Huron himself knows his precise strength as warbands join up and splinter. He's not likely to share what he knows, and it suits his purposes for everyone to overestimate how strong he really is.

 

I think the key is that in any given encounter, they would seem to have far more resources than should be possible for any renegade warband.

 

 

he has the success record to back him up.

 

Hardly. His main claim to fame is losing the Badab War. He's made a name for himself as renegades go, but nothing he's done since then comes anywhere close to overshadowing Abaddon, or even matching a single Black Crusade. 

 

You seem a bit fixated on the Legions, which don't really exist any more. As many renegades head for the Maelstrom, more head for the Eye of Terror.

[Shuggnuggath]

I can see why Hurons force is growing so quickly. Any renegade marines are far better off joining him than being treated like second class oiks by one of the old legions.

 

After all there is strength in numbers and Huron was a Chapter Master respected for his leadership and tactical ability before he turned traitor. If i was a renegade I would rather be a red corsair tbh.

[Brother Heinrich]

Hardly. His main claim to fame is losing the Badab War. He's made a name for himself as renegades go, but nothing he's done since then comes anywhere close to overshadowing Abaddon, or even matching a single Black Crusade. 

 

You seem a bit fixated on the Legions, which don't really exist any more. As many renegades head for the Maelstrom, more head for the Eye of Terror.

 

I'm not saying that Huron is more successful than Abbadon, or that he's caused more harm to the Imperium, I'm saying that he's a rising star that other renegades flock to because the majority of traitor forces aren't in Abaddon's inner circle and don't know the grand aims of his crusades, thus they view him as an icon of futility. Since losing the Badab, war Huron has come back with a vengeance and purpose whilst continuing to grow and expand. 

 

I'm not 'fixated' on the Legions. They are the original stock for traitor forces and were largely the driving force behind the continuation of the long war. True they do not exist as cohesive formations like they once did, but they still exist in name and lineage. Saying that more renegades head for the EoT than the Maelstrom is purely speculation, all we have are quotes from various BL books and GW codices. The majority that I've seen point to the fact that Huron continues to increase in might and daring while Abaddon continues earning Pyrrhic victories with his Black Crusades. 

[Artein]

How I see it....

Red Corsairs fluff was written before expanding Legiones Astartes into roughly 100k Marines. I believe Huron has about 10k soldiers, just like the Legions of old from before the retcon.

[Wade Garrett]

Huron? Meh. For all these huge armies he's supposed to be commanding, his big accomplishments in the fluff are killing off a single Ultramarine successor chapter and giving Honsou a bunch of guys to sail to martyrdom on Calth with.

 

And for all Talos's simpering about the Black Legions "failing strength" in Soul Hunter who does he say he wants to hook up with when he gets serious about tearing down the Imperium in Void Stalker?

 

(Hint: It's not Huron)

[Jiron]

Codex states that he has about a number of pre-heresy legion.

[Brother Heinrich]

Huron? Meh. For all these huge armies he's supposed to be commanding, his big accomplishments in the fluff are killing off a single Ultramarine successor chapter and giving Honsou a bunch of guys to sail to martyrdom on Calth with.

 

And for all Talos's simpering about the Black Legions "failing strength" in Soul Hunter who does he say he wants to hook up with when he gets serious about tearing down the Imperium in Void Stalker?

 

(Hint: It's not Huron)

Oh yeah I'm aware of that, but Night Lords are also hypocrites and cowards ;) Like I said, the dude definitely doesn't have Abbadon's track record, but his charisma and vision are undeniable. 

[Kol Saresk]

Ultimately, the Red Corsairs are nothing more than a collection of various warbands and pirate crews. But then again, once a warband reaches a certain size, that's all it becomes. Just look at the Black Legion. The whole thing is Abaddon's warband. But then look at all the various warbands that exist within it or have since splintered off from it.

[Scribe]

Where are these numbers for Huron coming from. This is crushing what little hope I had for 40K Chaos...

[the jeske]

Ultimately, the Red Corsairs are nothing more than a collection of various warbands and pirate crews. But then again, once a warband reaches a certain size, that's all it becomes. Just look at the Black Legion. The whole thing is Abaddon's warband. But then look at all the various warbands that exist within it or have since splintered off from it.

there are two warbands that have "splintered" off BL in the new fluff. one are those who failed abadon and who still have to do what he says , but don't get ammo/fuel and chaos gods don't help them heal and one warband which splintered off durning the legion war era , before BL actualy started to exist. Everything else does what abadon tells them to do. Saying they are different , would be as if you said that because customs is most of the time made out of 5 divisions[+1] , it is actualy 5[+1] different organisations.

[Kol Saresk]

No actually it'd be like comparing the Pre-Primarch Legions to each other. Even though they were organized pretty much the exact same way, each Legion was still different from the other, even back then when only four carried names.

 

The Black Legion and Red Corsairs are virtual twins of each other. When their masters aren't calling for their attention, the warbands divide along their loyalties.

 

The difference is that the Black Legion are soldiers of the Lost and the Damned while the Red Corsairs are pirates.

[Iron_Within]

Saying that Huron's forces are roughly the equivelent to a pre-heresy legion is a complete non-answer. The reason being is the Legions at all points of the unification and the crusades varied massively in size. Yes, the Ultramarines has hundreds of thousands of Marines but the Emperors Children, Thousand Sons, Salamanders, Sapce Wolves and White Scars had smaller Legions. Ultimately pre-heresy Legion is an 'anything' number and it's quite clear that his forces strength is deliberatly vague to be in keeping with the Red Corsairs piratical nature; the myth is bigger than the man.

[the jeske]

But his force was said to be 100k strong and rival the size of BL and BL is post heresy sized  . It also can't be non marines , because the spec forts alone and the non marine crews of his fleet number more .

 

 

 

 

When their masters aren't calling for their attention, the warbands divide along their loyalties.

Aboslutly no military organisation , ever worked in that way. the moment word gets out that one of the underlings does what he wants and not what he is told to do , and then doesn't get punished for it , the organisation dies.

[RapatoR]

AFAIK it is only stated that Huron's force rivals legions of old, I don't recall any statement saying: He has 100k marines at his disposal.

Also, destroying chapter monastery by open force is a huge feat. Remember it took two legions + two awesomely big ships to take down Armatura.

There is a difference between Abby and Huron, however. Huron amassed enough force to rival legions of old. Abaddon has to quote A D-B "famously gathered more influence and power here in the Eye than any of the Daemon Primarchs can even dream." Hell the primarchs gave the guy their blessings and forces. You can think of Huron as an successful Demon Primarch, but Abby is the boss.

[Brother Heinrich]

 

 

When their masters aren't calling for their attention, the warbands divide along their loyalties.

Aboslutly no military organisation , ever worked in that way. the moment word gets out that one of the underlings does what he wants and not what he is told to do , and then doesn't get punished for it , the organisation dies.

 

The difference between our military organizations and those of the 41st millennium is that they aren't all confined to one world. It's a little hard to mete out punishment to wayward subordinates when they have the ability to hop across the galaxy. Forces follow Abbadon and Huron because they are leaders with vision, not because they hold some 'command' rank. Even loyalist Astartes don't follow the rules and orders they are given. Traitors have absolutely no compunction about telling everyone to screw off. If Abbadon calls, guess what.... you don't have to answer. The dude is waaaaaaaay to busy to go hunt down some small warband just because they said, "no thanks bro, I'm fine just where I'm at, you can all go die on Cadia."