Fluff Discussion: The Tyrant's Strength

[Iron_Within]

Well except for all those years later, after Abaddons hounds have chased you into the ground and dragged you out of that hole you hid yourself in in chains, you might get to see the Despoiler or more likely, telling him to screw of the first time was a ''you have failed me for the last time' moment and you're doom to die in that hole.  Why? Because an insane super-human monster with intense meglomania and enough hatred to want to burn the galaxy does not take being told to sod off very well. And that is why plenty of warbands go to his banner out of fear, because it's easier to go to his banner than to end up on his list.

[Vesper]

If Abbadon calls, guess what.... you don't have to answer. The dude is waaaaaaaay to busy to go hunt down some small warband just because they said, "no thanks bro, I'm fine just where I'm at, you can all go die on Cadia."

I don't think those guys live very long.

[Wade Garrett]

I'd imagine that it's not so much that he goes out of his way to hunt guys like that down, as he has a big book of "@#$/ that are

going to get theirs" and whenever he commits significant forces to a certain region he checks it against that book and jots "While you're in the neighborhood, fix THOSE guys" on the list of objectives he wants his subordinates to carry out.

[Kol Saresk]

AFAIK it is only stated that Huron's force rivals legions of old, I don't recall any statement saying: He has 100k marines at his disposal.

Also, destroying chapter monastery by open force is a huge feat. Remember it took two legions + two awesomely big ships to take down Armatura.

There is a difference between Abby and Huron, however. Huron amassed enough force to rival legions of old. Abaddon has to quote A D-B "famously gathered more influence and power here in the Eye than any of the Daemon Primarchs can even dream." Hell the primarchs gave the guy their blessings and forces. You can think of Huron as an successful Demon Primarch, but Abby is the boss.

Actually the two ships did most of the work as they literally sailed through the orbital defences. The strengths of the attacking Legions were only a portion of what each Legion could conquer as the same time Armatura was happening, so was Calth and a dozen other worlds. That's why Khârn made a point of saying that each one of the individual factions below outnumbered the attackers by itself and then when you combined the whole together, it was like facing a herd of elephants with a mouse.

 

What worked in the attackers' favor was that the forces on the ground were spread out into smaller portions across several locations. So the XII and XVII forces just attacked one location at a time until there were none left. Hounds taking down a bear, so to speak.

[Brother Heinrich]

Sorry to disagree, but as much of a megalomaniac as Abbadon is, I really doubt he's going to waste a whole bunch of resources hunting down some minor warband because they neglected to write back when he sent out party invitations. I'm not saying warbands are actively going to make it a point to send a singing telegram to Abbadon telling him to stuff it, they just won't answer the call. No doubt when you tell Abbadon "No" to his face, he gets mad, Talos found that out the hard way, but this is the WARMASTER we're talking about, he has way loftier goals and plans than hunting down a handful of renegade Astartes out BFE space. That includes delegating authority to some type of kill-team with enough strength to take out a warband, like I said, bigger fish to fry. 

 

This isn't to say that infighting is nonexistent, obviously, but that usually happens when the aims of two warbands or forces run counter to one another or when they have ancient hatred fostered between them (World Eaters/Emperors Children). There are thousands of crazy war leaders amongst renegade and traitor forces that would justify all manner of ludicrous hunts across time and space just to settle a grudge, but Abbadon is not one of those. True he's going to have a long memory and if you don't heed his call, its probably not in your best interests to show up to the next party.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, I think Wade has the right of it. Abaddon may not actively hunt down "traitors", but I'm more than willing to bet that if he can line up all his ducks in a row, he will shoot them down.

[Shifte]

Abaddon probably just tells underlings to "get me 100 Astartes to attack X" - then, that minion will do any necessary heavy handedness. If Abaddon had to personally intervene, the underling has likely lost his head :P

 

Personally, I like the idea that Huron is seen by some renegades as a rising star of Chaos. We know he made a pact with the Dark Gods, so maybe they have something in mind for him.

[Vesper]

 

Sorry to disagree, but as much of a megalomaniac as Abbadon is, I really

doubt he's going to waste a whole bunch of resources hunting down some

minor warband because they neglected to write back when he sent out

party invitations.

 

It would be pretty simple for him to wreck any warband, really. All he has to say is "I'd be pleased if someone bring me the corpse of Chaos Lord X", and all ambitious warlords around will hunt that guy down just to get in the favours of the warmaster.

 

 

 

Personally, I like the idea that Huron is seen by some renegades as a

 

rising star of Chaos. We know he made a pact with the Dark Gods, so

maybe they have something in mind for him.

They might want him to become the new Abaddon, as Abaddon isn't their puppet.

[Brother Heinrich]

 

 

Sorry to disagree, but as much of a megalomaniac as Abbadon is, I really

doubt he's going to waste a whole bunch of resources hunting down some

minor warband because they neglected to write back when he sent out

party invitations.

 

It would be pretty simple for him to wreck any warband, really. All he has to say is "I'd be pleased if someone bring me the corpse of Chaos Lord X", and all ambitious warlords around will hunt that guy down just to get in the favours of the warmaster.

 

Yeah obviously if the dude ticks off Abby, but what I'm saying is that I hardly doubt "Not Answering" is going to earn the Warmasters' wrath. Most warbands do what they want and join a cause if it profits them. Not to mention the unpredictability of both communication and warp travel means that expecting everyone to arrive at all of his parties is an exercise in futility. Sure if you're in a neighboring system or the EoT itself you can't really plausibly refuse, but if Abbadon punished ALL chaos warbands for not answering every single one of his summons, then why isn't he destroying Huron and all the traitors in the Maelstrom?

[Wade Garrett]

Why isn't he destroying Huron and all the traitors in the Maelstrom?

I think we just uncovered the real reason Abaddon keeps throwing armies and fleets at the Cadian Gate.

 

Huron and Kor Phaeron want to ignore his friend requests? THEY CAN IGNORE THEM IN HELL!

[Brother Heinrich]

 

Why isn't he destroying Huron and all the traitors in the Maelstrom?

I think we just uncovered the real reason Abaddon keeps throwing armies and fleets at the Cadian Gate.

 

Huron and Kor Phaeron want to ignore his friend requests? THEY CAN IGNORE THEM IN HELL!

Made my night Wade lol.

[Kol Saresk]

Heinrich, I don't think it's a matter of saying no. I think its more like oathbreakers. If someone swears the Black and swears to answer when he calls, and then chooses not to answer, or even accept. Which is different than if he just sent out a general invitation.

[Tenebris]

I think that breaking an oath to the Black Legion, while it would not invite immediate sanction as we think of it, would certainly warrant to be held in account sooner or later. Even refusing to aid your warband would be a sanction grave enough, or refusing to restock your warband from the vast armories of the Black Legion. Sure you can raid, but if you refuse to answer the call of your patron, you loose the patron, and for a piratical force this can be dire. 

[Vesper]

 

 

 

Sorry to disagree, but as much of a megalomaniac as Abbadon is, I really

doubt he's going to waste a whole bunch of resources hunting down some

minor warband because they neglected to write back when he sent out

party invitations.

 

It would be pretty simple for him to wreck any warband, really. All he has to say is "I'd be pleased if someone bring me the corpse of Chaos Lord X", and all ambitious warlords around will hunt that guy down just to get in the favours of the warmaster.

 

Yeah obviously if the dude ticks off Abby, but what I'm saying is that I hardly doubt "Not Answering" is going to earn the Warmasters' wrath. Most warbands do what they want and join a cause if it profits them. Not to mention the unpredictability of both communication and warp travel means that expecting everyone to arrive at all of his parties is an exercise in futility. Sure if you're in a neighboring system or the EoT itself you can't really plausibly refuse, but if Abbadon punished ALL chaos warbands for not answering every single one of his summons, then why isn't he destroying Huron and all the traitors in the Maelstrom?

 

Because Huron is already more or less under Abaddon's orders, probably. You know, the Crimson Path and all.

Communication wise, I think Abaddon is comfortable. The BL supplement shows that he's kinda obsessed with the future, he has a permanent conclave of sorcerers, doing divination and stuff like that. I think it's a safe bet to assume that if Abaddon really wants to know something, he has the means to know it.

[Brother Heinrich]

Heinrich, I don't think it's a matter of saying no. I think its more like oathbreakers. If someone swears the Black and swears to answer when he calls, and then chooses not to answer, or even accept. Which is different than if he just sent out a general invitation.

 

Yeah I get that, guys like Ruven and other Black Legion guys just giving Abby the middle finger and taking off is definitely going to earn the Warmasters' wrath. What I'm saying is that every chaos Warband across the entire length and breadth of space and time does not answer solely to Abbadon alone, hell he probably doesn't even know how many renegade warbands their actually are. 

 

I think that breaking an oath to the Black Legion, while it would not invite immediate sanction as we think of it, would certainly warrant to be held in account sooner or later. Even refusing to aid your warband would be a sanction grave enough, or refusing to restock your warband from the vast armories of the Black Legion. Sure you can raid, but if you refuse to answer the call of your patron, you loose the patron, and for a piratical force this can be dire. 

 

Most definitely, obviously the same goes for Huron. Even mister high-and-mighty Talos had to come skulking back to the Maelstrom when the Covenant of Blood needed repairs.

 

Because Huron is already more or less under Abaddon's orders, probably. You know, the Crimson Path and all.

Communication wise, I think Abaddon is comfortable. The BL supplement shows that he's kinda obsessed with the future, he has a permanent conclave of sorcerers, doing divination and stuff like that. I think it's a safe bet to assume that if Abaddon really wants to know something, he has the means to know it.

 

Saying that Huron is under Abbadon's control is a sweeping assumption backed up by nothing. You're assigning the powers of the Chaos Gods to a mortal Space Marine, Abbadon does not control everyone who worships or makes deals with Chaos. Ahriman does his own thing, as do Kor Phaeron and Erebus, and Typhus as well. Warbands and lords align with Abbadon when it's convenient and aligns with their goals. 

 

Look at the 13th Black Crusade; Abbadon commands millions of soldiers and traitor titans as well as thousands of warbands drawn from all manner of renegades and the former legions. What happens when they break out of the EoT? Three sheets to the fething wind. Typhus rampages off into the Agripinaa sector and makes a Daemon world for himself, the Night Lords move against Ulthwé for revenge, and chaos generally does what chaos does, goes crazy.

 

Abbadon is easily the most powerful chaos lord, no doubt there, but he does not control the actions of every chaos force in the galaxy. To assume so is to run against the entire grain of what chaos stands for, we are not lackeys of the Emperor, we do not bow to one leader and follow him like mindless drones, we fight for our own reasons, some for the long war, some for plunder, some to please the gods, and some because killing is simply too fun to stop. We make alliances and break alliances all based upon personal gain, not because some lofty dude with a topknot on the other side of the galaxy says so.

 

Now I like all of you, and I can understand your love and support for your patron lord, so I won't lose my cool over the issue, but I will not change my stance on this. Chaos is about freedom, about doing what you want, when you want, how you want until someone is strong enough to stop you. It's a big wide galaxy and last time I checked, Abbadon still needs to get his ass off Cadia before he starts worrying about what Bob's renegades are doing out in the Eastern Fringe.

[Excessus]

permanent conclave of sorcerers, doing divination and stuff like that.

Too bad the chaos sorcerers suck so badly at it they can't even choose spells from that school... :P

[RolandTHTG]

permanent conclave of sorcerers, doing divination and stuff like that.

Too bad the chaos sorcerers suck so badly at it they can't even choose spells from that school...

Sigh, I hate having to like that...

[RapatoR]

But his force was said to be 100k strong and rival the size of BL and BL is post heresy sized  . It also can't be non marines , because the spec forts alone and the non marine crews of his fleet number more .

 

 

 

 

When their masters aren't calling for their attention, the warbands divide along their loyalties.

Aboslutly no military organisation , ever worked in that way. the moment word gets out that one of the underlings does what he wants and not what he is told to do , and then doesn't get punished for it , the organisation dies.

Actually most of the millitary organisations worked that way. Even the Roman legions didn`t always heed their orders.

[Vesper]

permanent conclave of sorcerers, doing divination and stuff like that.

Too bad the chaos sorcerers suck so badly at it they can't even choose spells from that school...

Actually, you can't play a Chaos sorcerer that masters divination because they're all in Abaddon's backyard :p.

Saying that Huron is under Abbadon's control is a sweeping assumption backed up by nothing.

As I said, I was refering to the Crimson Path thingy, that says countless warbands would emerge from the Maeltröm to attack the Imperium from another angle while Abaddon breaks the gate and sail to Terra.

So I was assuming Huron would play a role in this. I could see Abaddon taking notice of Huron's power and having to deal with him for the Maelström stuff. No solid matter here, but it's still backed up by the Crimson Path stuff.

[the jeske]

 

Actually most of the millitary organisations worked that way. Even the Roman legions didn`t always heed their orders.

And what happens then ? you have a war till one side is dead . If a military unit , a brench of any organisation suddenly says"am going solo now" , then the only way for it to survive is either find a very powerful protector[no one is more powerful then abadon right now] or they have to kill the parent entity or they have to be small enough to hide for the rest of their existance. Countries do it [or at least try] , organistations do it , even families work that way .

[Brother Aiwass]

Well, to say Huron have a legion sized warband is too much for my taste.

 

Size Legiones according to HH FW books, and other books:

 

Word Bearers: 140,000 ('recorded' strength prior to Isstvan V - stated to be an incorrect estimate, as they were actually second in size only to the Ultramarines)

Sons of Horus: 130,000 - 170,000

World Eaters: 150,000

Night Lords: 90,000 - 120,000

Iron Hands: 113,000

Emperor's Children: 110,000
 

Thousand Sons: 10.000 (A Thousand Sons)

 

Death Guard: 95,000

Salamanders: 89,000

 

Ultramarines: 250.000 (recorded strenght prior to Calth, Know No Fear)

 

Blood Angels: 120.000 (Fear to Tread)

 

Dark Angels: 150.000 (The Lion, six Orders are at 30.000 marines, around 30 Orders in the DA)

 

Raven Guard: 90.000 (Deliverance Lost)

 

So Huron forces are between 90.000 and 170.000 (ignoring the UM and the TS, which would stretch the range between 10.000 to 250.000 which is unlikely). And I have hard time believing it, at least accepting that the Red Corsairs' strenght range is compossed entirely by marines.

 

I would say between 9.000 and 15.000 marines at the most, and this being generous.

 

And for the 'Military Units doing what they like' subtopic, I would say that the Roman Legiones are not the best example: When they did that, they'd been punished utterly hard. However, feudal lords in fact did whatever they like most of the time, from raiding other allied lords, attacking neutral or enemy lord, refusing (by not sending troops) crusade the muslims, refusing (by not sending troops or sending too few) to help his sire if that worked in its interests and so on.

[RapatoR]

 

 

Actually most of the millitary organisations worked that way. Even the Roman legions didn`t always heed their orders.

And what happens then ? you have a war till one side is dead . If a military unit , a brench of any organisation suddenly says"am going solo now" , then the only way for it to survive is either find a very powerful protector[no one is more powerful then abadon right now] or they have to kill the parent entity or they have to be small enough to hide for the rest of their existance. Countries do it [or at least try] , organistations do it , even families work that way .

Actually I see Germany, England, France and Russia doing fine, despite fact that all of them did lost a war back in history. Jugoslavia went solo during WW2 and Cold war and did just fine, as well as Finland and Austria did. Heck, multiple third world countries in Cold war relied on balancing between USA and CCCP. And lets not even talk about various levels of independence and cooperation that partisan groups had from main armies. And all this is possible on one planet where communication and travel is easy.

 

Not a huge part of universe where reality itself is twisted (travel between two close planets might take 100 years or a day depending on a mood of warp) and communication depends on correct interpretation of your dreams. So this view is simplistic.

 

 

 

 

And for the 'Military Units doing what they like' subtopic, I would say that the Roman Legiones are not the best example: When they did that, they'd been punished utterly hard. However, feudal lords in fact did whatever they like most of the time, from raiding other allied lords, attacking neutral or enemy lord, refusing (by not sending troops) crusade the muslims, refusing (by not sending troops or sending too few) to help his sire if that worked in its interests and so on.

Well examples of feudal lords or barbaric tribes during ancient Rome speak for themselves, they scream of statement "no millitary force ever worked that way" incorrect. But I wanted to stress out that even those forces which are considered to be disciplined don't always work that way. Maybe it could work, if we were ants, not humans.

 

As for heeding orders and punishment in ancient Rome, I will give example of Boudicas rebellion

         While Boudica's army continued their assault in Verulamium (St. Albans), Suetonius regrouped his forces. According to Tacitus, he amassed a force including his own Legio XIV Gemina some vexillationes (detachments) of the XX Valeria Victrix, and any available auxiliaries. The prefect of Legio II Augusta, Poenius Postumus, stationed near Exeter, ignored the call, and a fourth legion, IX Hispana, (commanded by Catus Decianus) had been routed trying to relieve Camulodunum, but nonetheless the governor was able to call on almost ten thousand men.

 

Postumus, on hearing of the Roman victory, fell on his sword. Catus Decianus who had fled to Gaul, was replaced by Gaius Julius Alpinus Calssicianus. Suetonius conducted punitive operations, but criticism by Classicianus led to an investigation headed by Nero's freedman Polyclitus. Fearing Suetonius' actions would provoke further rebellion, Nero replaced the governor with the more conciliatory Publius Petronius Turpilianus.

As you can see, in the aftermath, the general, whose army was routed was "punished" in the same way as victorious general. Dude  who ignored call punished himself, but had Suetonius lost, maybe Catus and Postumus wouldn't be punished at all. That is the thing: sometimes only generals got punished, sometimes whole armies, sometimes only parts of armies, sometimes no one got punished. It all depended on circumstances, specificity and interpretation of emperor's order, how much the emperor cared, if his orders are carried out and billion of other things.

[Trevak Dal]

I wonder if after Blood Reaver, the administratum still came to collect the geneseed tithe...

[Trevak Dal]

Saying that Huron's forces are roughly the equivelent to a pre-heresy legion is a complete non-answer. The reason being is the Legions at all points of the unification and the crusades varied massively in size. Yes, the Ultramarines has hundreds of thousands of Marines but the Emperors Children, Thousand Sons, Salamanders, Sapce Wolves and White Scars had smaller Legions. Ultimately pre-heresy Legion is an 'anything' number and it's quite clear that his forces strength is deliberatly vague to be in keeping with the Red Corsairs piratical nature; the myth is bigger than the man.

 

Regarding that from the current codex, let's remember that "the Current Codex" was largely copy-pasted from "The Former Codex" and when "The Former Codex" was written, legions were ~10k Dudes +/- a couple thousand guys here and there.

 

Also, ADB's "All of it's true/none of it's true" line.  And the Imperium is very paranoid and pessimistic as hell, so they could get going "Oh Woe as me" over it.

 

Or "Because the Alpha Legion Did it" clause, which can sum up every answer in 40k.  Dissappered Primarchs?  Alpha Legion did it.  Tau evolution/Ethereals?  Alpha Legion did it.

 

Tyranids attacking Maccrag and wiping out the the entire first company of Ultramarines?  Alpha Legion did it-but that was only a happy secondary effect.  No, there was one Race they feared above all others:  The Squats who had to be stopped once and for all.

 

Every single chapter, every single warband, every single legion-every single race has Alpha Legion operatives in them, constantly working, trying to beat their opposite number, scheme within scheme, plot within plot, never ending.

 

The Thousand Sons only think they are Tzeentch's chosen Legion because they would Poke-volve into Spawn before Ahriman's tactical intervention (He is infact-you guessed it-an Alpha Legionaire)

 

 

In all seriousness though, I suspect that over-all the organization of the various warbands within the Chaos Space Marines is probably more like street or biker gangs (I've been watching the Trailer-Born Soap Opera Sons of Anarchy, I gots theories and such), or perhaps in better tastes college Fraternities.

 

They are 'affiliated' with a parent chapter/legion/DaddyGuy, and follow the Head Chapter's President/Grand Champion when he "Calls in the other Chapters." to join a Warband you start off as a "Prospect".  Then they range in organization anywhere from Orks in Power Armor to Inspired Tactics.

[Sception]

Maybe that's why we don't have divination sorcerers. Abaddon's already collected them all into his little coven, and feels they're better used feeding him intel than risked on the battlefield buffing troops.

 

As for keeping track of who snubs him, I'm pretty sure Abby's got some accounting servitors to do that job so he doesn't have to bother himself. Besides, the Black Legion canonically sends out war bands to support other warlords in exchange for promises of support in the next crusade, Even if Abaddon doesn't notice if you fail to show up, you can bet the 'Soul Chaffers' or whichever specific warband sent a few regiments of marines to support you will notice, and since you made their warlord look bad in front of Abaddon by undercutting the support they thought they were bringing to the crusade, you can bet that the first thing he's going to do when the crusade's over is come after you. And maybe you beat him, but then you're officially at war with the Black Legion, and have defeated one of their Warlords, and that's the kind of insult you can bet Abby's going to take notice of and handle with extreme prejudice.

 

Of course, that's how it worked for previous crusades. The thirteenth is supposed to be 'da big 'un', so the Black Legion may be in 'win or die' mode. If you don't show and they lose, then there may not be anyone left to come after you, and even if they win, none of the survivors may remember you. On the other hand, if the chaos gods are invested, as they seem to be, then any chaos marine war bands that resist the call are likely to see their leaders start exploding into spawn until someone with a more 'can do' attitude takes charge. You may not worship them personally, but that doesn't mean their whims don't dictate the physical laws of the ream in which you reside.