Unremembered Empire....initial review

[godking]

Read it yesterday evening in one setting  great book one of the best in the horus heresy series.

 

Regarding Guilliman vs the ten astartes In an enclosed space unarmed against at least competent shooters and being suprised you are going to get shot and you are going to be hurt no matter how fast or strong you are.

 

Guilliman did the best he could seeing as he was unarmed unhelmeted and suprised.

 

The only small chance ten Astartes have against  Primrach is to suprise him.

 

Glad that Auguston died we dont need another Eidolon.

 

Curze kicked ass.

 

The Lion was very well portrayed.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Hey.

 

 

I heard Sanguinus was going to ask the Emps to get rid of all apothecaries since they seem to all be influenced or corrupted by chaos.

 

 

 

....but he's going to keep his Sanguinary priests, cuz you know....they're not called apothecaries....

 

By the beloved Angel of angels, don't start this again... you know we get our healing powers from Baal itself unlike the other legions and their "science"...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Kyme is universes of quality higher than some of the people that theoretically could be writing in his place. 

 

Really?  Like . . . Chris Wraight, author of the immensely well-received Wrath of Iron and Battle for the Fang?

[Emperor's Furor]

 

 

Where did u get that image from? I was at gamesday uk and we never got that slide in the presentation from forgeworld.

also keep BL and FW seperate...  FW is caught up in two years what has taken the BL 10 years to write.....

 

edit:  7 years plus since Horus Rising...

I assumed that it was Forgeworld since the guy with the mic bares a strong resemblence to the guy who did the seminar at UK gamesday this year.

[Brother Captain Achilles]

 

Kyme is universes of quality higher than some of the people that theoretically could be writing in his place. 

 

Really?  Like . . . Chris Wraight, author of the immensely well-received Wrath of Iron and Battle for the Fang?

 

I'll take Kyme over Goto any day of the week. When Vulkans hammer turns into a Multi-Laser we will truly have reasons to be worried.

[Wade Garrett]

When Matt Ward truly and finally destroys the public preception of your chapter only to have them forever branded as the first sons of the "Spiritual Leige" you lemme know.

 

Now, now. That's some of the same mean spirited vindictiveness towards an author that I was just chastised for in regards to Kyme.

 

If you tickle Matt Ward, will he not laugh?

 

If you prick him, will he not cry?

 

Is he not fed by the same food, harmed by the same weapons, sickened by the same diseases, cured by the same medicines, warmed by spring and cooled by autumn the same as Dan Abnett and ADB?

[Brother dean]

I assumed that it was Forgeworld since the guy with the mic bares a strong resemblence to the guy who did the seminar at UK gamesday this year.

You may be right, I assumed it was a Black Library timeline but it came from the Horus Hersey weekend.

 

http://bloodofkittens.com/wargaminghub/2013/05/20/horus-heresy-weekend-round-up-and-picture-fest/

 

And a clearer picture at that...

[Brother Captain Achilles]

 

When Matt Ward truly and finally destroys the public preception of your chapter only to have them forever branded as the first sons of the "Spiritual Leige" you lemme know.

Now, now. That's some of the same mean spirited vindictiveness towards an author that I was just chastised for in regards to Kyme.

 

If you tickle Matt Ward, will he not laugh?

 

If you prick him, will he not cry?

 

Cannot the same be said of Kyme? But is not Ward hated more and more thoroughly? are not the Majority of Kymes works of some noble note?

 

Yet lo, when faced with the detritus mind spawnings of Ward are you not moved to sickness?

 

There in the devil are the details wade. In repeated acts of failure, not in the single sour example of below quality work that Vulkan Lives seems to be.

[Wade Garrett]

Yet can all Kyme's vast ocean of work take the stain from Vulkan Lives, Brother Captain?

 

I say to thee, no! Rather, a single scarlet drop from it shall turn all his emerald output incarnadine!

[Brother Captain Achilles]

Yet can all Kyme's vast ocean of work take the stain from Vulkan Lives, Brother Captain?

 

I say to thee, no! Rather, a single scarlet drop from it shall turn all his emerald output incarnadine!

 

Then as I expected son of Lorgar, your mind is well and truly lost, all that is left is to finish this the way your and my Legion always have in the end.

 

 

 

 

 

With a Space Jam.

[Conn Eremon]

To be fair, Kyme's not in any better a boat than Ward or Goto when it comes to repetitive failures in the eyes of the average fan. Vulkan Lives appears to be a primary example of such, not unlike Ward's daemonic heart throb, Draigo. One could even say that the two have caused equal amounts of damage to a faction over the course of their work.

 

Though as far as I'm concerned, McNeil has done far more damage to the Ultramarines fanbase than Ward has. I'd take arrogance over idiocy any day of the week. That said, McNeil has the potential of being a really good author, if he'd just stop pulling that kind of :cuss .

 

So in other words, Wade might want to apologize for his overly excessive use of sarcasm, that is somehow dripping sarcasm that drips sarcasm, but not for attacking Kyme over a book that is indicative of his work, rather than the exception.

 

Loved that argument, though.

[Wade Garrett]

On the one hand, Cormac might have a point about me saying sorry.

 

On the other, at this point I think any apology to fellow B & Cers (not Kyme! If ever I paid him a compliment I do repent it now!) I render would also come across as sarcastic. So what would be the point? ;)

[Emperor's Furor]

I liked Vulkan Lives for the most part, I didn't enjoy Scorched Earth though.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, but depending on your point of view, it depends on how you view the author. Some view A D-B as the scum of the earth. Heck, some are still having a fit over Abnett. And some view James Swallow as a repeated failure. And so, and so forth. So a lot of times, what we expect comes into play. We go "Night Lords, this has to meet a certain standard." And when it doesn't, we go "The book was horribly written, and this and that." Phalanx was horribly written. Prospero Burns was well-written. And I don't like either of them, for various reasons. Void Stalker was well-written. Dark Adeptus was actually well-written. But what's the difference? Void Stalker met and exceeded expectations of the majority of the fanbase. Dark Adeptus did not.

 

So in truth, a lot of what we look at as failure, is simply because it failed our expectations. Now, that does not mean all. Kaldor Draigo is a perfect example of something that failed as a piece of literature, 40K background, and expectations. So is Phalanx.

 

Vulkan Lives is a failure in that it did not live up to the expectations of the fans. Not a single Night Lords fan(or enthusiast) I have heard comment on the subject like the portrayal of Curze. And not because of the "Well no one likes to see their favorite Primarch being cast down" or somesuch nonsense. Night Lord fans are used to having low standards for Curze. It's a love-hate relationship. However, this was not even Curze. It's not just a "different author portrayal." Curze as written by Spurrier, Abnett and A D-B are different author portrayals. Kyme's was just............. yeah.

 

But this isn't a Vulkan Lives topic, so I'd suggest looking for various comments littered throughout this topic and a review in the Vulkan Lives topic in the Black Library forum for my thoughts on the matter, both good and bad.

 

But the list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on. Look at the number complaint of Unremembered Empire. "Guilliman didn't live up to my view of how he should have. If I had written him, he would have taken those bolt rounds like it was nothing and torn apart those marines in a savage display of Primarch-fu." Nevermind it'd make you as bad as Gav Thorpe for making characters OP.

[depthcharge12]

Yeah, but depending on your point of view, it depends on how you view the author. Some view A D-B as the scum of the earth. Heck, some are still having a fit over Abnett. And some view James Swallow as a repeated failure. And so, and so forth. So a lot of times, what we expect comes into play. We go "Night Lords, this has to meet a certain standard." And when it doesn't, we go "The book was horribly written, and this and that." Phalanx was horribly written. Prospero Burns was well-written. And I don't like either of them, for various reasons. Void Stalker was well-written. Dark Adeptus was actually well-written. But what's the difference? Void Stalker met and exceeded expectations of the majority of the fanbase. Dark Adeptus did not.

So in truth, a lot of what we look at as failure, is simply because it failed our expectations. Now, that does not mean all. Kaldor Draigo is a perfect example of something that failed as a piece of literature, 40K background, and expectations. So is Phalanx.

Vulkan Lives is a failure in that it did not live up to the expectations of the fans. Not a single Night Lords fan(or enthusiast) I have heard comment on the subject like the portrayal of Curze. And not because of the "Well no one likes to see their favorite Primarch being cast down" or somesuch nonsense. Night Lord fans are used to having low standards for Curze. It's a love-hate relationship. However, this was not even Curze. It's not just a "different author portrayal." Curze as written by Spurrier, Abnett and A D-B are different author portrayals. Kyme's was just............. yeah.

But this isn't a Vulkan Lives topic, so I'd suggest looking for various comments littered throughout this topic and a review in the Vulkan Lives topic in the Black Library forum for my thoughts on the matter, both good and bad.

But the list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on. Look at the number complaint of Unremembered Empire. "Guilliman didn't live up to my view of how he should have. If I had written him, he would have taken those bolt rounds like it was nothing and torn apart those marines in a savage display of Primarch-fu." Nevermind it'd make you as bad as Gav Thorpe for making characters OP.

How dare you give your opinion on this forum Kol.

You should know better

[Brother Captain Achilles]

Yeah, but depending on your point of view, it depends on how you view the author. Some view A D-B as the scum of the earth. Heck, some are still having a fit over Abnett. And some view James Swallow as a repeated failure. And so, and so forth. So a lot of times, what we expect comes into play. We go "Night Lords, this has to meet a certain standard." And when it doesn't, we go "The book was horribly written, and this and that." Phalanx was horribly written. Prospero Burns was well-written. And I don't like either of them, for various reasons. Void Stalker was well-written. Dark Adeptus was actually well-written. But what's the difference? Void Stalker met and exceeded expectations of the majority of the fanbase. Dark Adeptus did not.

 

So in truth, a lot of what we look at as failure, is simply because it failed our expectations. Now, that does not mean all. Kaldor Draigo is a perfect example of something that failed as a piece of literature, 40K background, and expectations. So is Phalanx.

 

Vulkan Lives is a failure in that it did not live up to the expectations of the fans. Not a single Night Lords fan(or enthusiast) I have heard comment on the subject like the portrayal of Curze. And not because of the "Well no one likes to see their favorite Primarch being cast down" or somesuch nonsense. Night Lord fans are used to having low standards for Curze. It's a love-hate relationship. However, this was not even Curze. It's not just a "different author portrayal." Curze as written by Spurrier, Abnett and A D-B are different author portrayals. Kyme's was just............. yeah.

 

But this isn't a Vulkan Lives topic, so I'd suggest looking for various comments littered throughout this topic and a review in the Vulkan Lives topic in the Black Library forum for my thoughts on the matter, both good and bad.

 

But the list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on. Look at the number complaint of Unremembered Empire. "Guilliman didn't live up to my view of how he should have. If I had written him, he would have taken those bolt rounds like it was nothing and torn apart those marines in a savage display of Primarch-fu." Nevermind it'd make you as bad as Gav Thorpe for making characters OP.

 

 

Kol in this regard you and I have proven to be of a mind... You vile Heretical sonuva' gun

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, but depending on your point of view, it depends on how you view the author. Some view A D-B as the scum of the earth. Heck, some are still having a fit over Abnett. And some view James Swallow as a repeated failure. And so, and so forth. So a lot of times, what we expect comes into play. We go "Night Lords, this has to meet a certain standard." And when it doesn't, we go "The book was horribly written, and this and that." Phalanx was horribly written. Prospero Burns was well-written. And I don't like either of them, for various reasons. Void Stalker was well-written. Dark Adeptus was actually well-written. But what's the difference? Void Stalker met and exceeded expectations of the majority of the fanbase. Dark Adeptus did not.

So in truth, a lot of what we look at as failure, is simply because it failed our expectations. Now, that does not mean all. Kaldor Draigo is a perfect example of something that failed as a piece of literature, 40K background, and expectations. So is Phalanx.

Vulkan Lives is a failure in that it did not live up to the expectations of the fans. Not a single Night Lords fan(or enthusiast) I have heard comment on the subject like the portrayal of Curze. And not because of the "Well no one likes to see their favorite Primarch being cast down" or somesuch nonsense. Night Lord fans are used to having low standards for Curze. It's a love-hate relationship. However, this was not even Curze. It's not just a "different author portrayal." Curze as written by Spurrier, Abnett and A D-B are different author portrayals. Kyme's was just............. yeah.

But this isn't a Vulkan Lives topic, so I'd suggest looking for various comments littered throughout this topic and a review in the Vulkan Lives topic in the Black Library forum for my thoughts on the matter, both good and bad.

But the list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on. Look at the number complaint of Unremembered Empire. "Guilliman didn't live up to my view of how he should have. If I had written him, he would have taken those bolt rounds like it was nothing and torn apart those marines in a savage display of Primarch-fu." Nevermind it'd make you as bad as Gav Thorpe for making characters OP.

How dare you give your opinion on this forum Kol.

You should know better:no:

Considering how much I get flamed and reported as a troll just for voicing my opinion, you think I would

[Conn Eremon]

It doesn't necessarily invalidate a person's opinion simply because it was a matter of expectations, though. It is a form of failure, in that the author failed to meet the expectations of the reader. Just as it would be a failure on the author to write something of lesser worth or quality.

 

At the same time, the onus can be on the reader themselves. The author may have failed to match our expectations, but then we ourselves might have failed in that we expect more than we should. Like an expectation that a Primarch come out of something better than portrayed could be a failure on the part of the author in conveying a scene incorporating the accepted views of Primarch strengths, or that of the reader for refusing to except anything other than total victory or defeat. 

 

If that expectation is reasonably and without bias built upon the former works of that author or his colleagues, a failure to meet those expectations is a valid complaint. 

 

For instance, it would be a reasonable expectation that the Unremembered Empire convey the complicated but well-greased organizational machine that is the Ultramarines. If instead I see them running around like chickens with their heads cut off in the midst of their own capital city, I'd be in my rights to complain about the author failing to meet my expectations.

 

However, when you have the same Ultramarine behavior but introduce an element like Perpetuals carrying daemons and godkillers, and the Night Haunter himself, that expectation is no longer quite as reasonable, because you have the further expectations of these figures causing chaos on too great a scale for the Ultramarines to just go "Nnnnoooope! *blam*"

 

Blah blah blah, I'm running out of time for my lunch break. Mayhaps I made my point well enough with just that.

[Kol Saresk]

I wasn't saying that it did invalidate the opinion. An opinion is an opinion simply because it is not right or wrong. Once it does become right or wrong, it is no longer an opinion. It is either a fact, or wrong.

 

But you actually did do a better job of explaining what I was trying to say than I did.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I've tried to keep my opinions of the recent offerings to myself, but this book is massively underwhelming and incredibly mediocre. I was worried leading up to this release that it was going to make fundamental changes to the way the Ultramarines participated in the Heresy, and painting them in the eyes of fans as bad guys, or cowards, or traitors.

 

Turns out, all that was unfounded.

 

This book is bad for entirely different reasons. I don't know if I really even want to both listing it all out, it might be too exhausting. But it's basically another clown car full of plot devices and packed with too many characters in the same place at one time. And much of it is because they stopped writing novels about Space Marines and normal humans observing the actions of the Heresy and the Primarchs, to making the Primarchs themselves the protagonists. The problem with Primarchs is that they're so powerful that you can only counter them in the story (in terms of matching them up with a suitable antagonist) using other primarchs. And that means we have primarchs ricocheting around the galaxy like some demented game of pinball just so they can show up in the right places just in time to serve as a plot device for whatever scene needs to happen. What's worse is that even the relatively solid Primarchs are being turning into cartoon characters. I liked Curze. He's absolutely awful in this book and its predecessor, both in depiction and characterization. The fight between him, Lionel, and Guilliman is horrendously cliché and worse, boring.

 

This whole series started going off the rails when they left the framework of the "original" Heresy. Look at the deviating "storyline" novels. Legion. Deliverance Lost. The Outcast Dead. Descent of Angels. Fear to Tread. Betrayer. Vulkan Lives. None of them have contributed anything positive to the storyline. In fact, each one seems to make it worse with needless convolutions and more and more characters who seem to have the ability to be everywhere at once. There are plenty of short stories from the anthologies that have done similar misdeeds. Again, just a ton of plot devices pushing the action around, while not getting it any closer to a logical conclusion. Stuff in these novels are no longer happening because it makes sense in the greater context of the story, or because it would make sense for the character to do, at all. Events are just happening without any regard for how that event fits in the greater narrative, simply so that it can happen in whatever the current story is.

 

I feel like I'm that kid from Final Destination, except that I can see the horrible accident as it unfolds but can't do anything to get off the plane. I keep listening to these audiobooks simply out of some perverse need to find out what happens next even as they murder this story with reckless, and bloody abandon and I know it's coming. :(  
 

 

Didn't honestly expect an anti BL author-rant here. Aren't we better than this "dual wielding unfounded accusations" thing? I mean, the BL board of authors discusses fluff a good amount of time before it appears in story-form. And even if they didn't, you don't just go "I choose immortality for mine!""No, I wanted that, bloodrage sucks."

The idea that some of this offal is making it through any kind of discussion in committee is even more distressing, lol.

[Kol Saresk]

Sometimes sweet irony gives me such an occasion to laugh.

[Scribe]

Betrayer deviated? Hardly. What canon breaking revelation was made? What change to the greater story? I wont disagree with the rest of those.

 

Deliverance busted up the Raven Guard fluff.

 

The Outcast Dead, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan I wanted to like it, but it COMPLETELY went off the rails, only to be 'fixed' by an audio book in the most 'umm yeah it was a wizard' kind of way.

 

Fear to Tread, another fluff bust up, in a massive way.

 

Vulkan Lives....meh, its throwing a bone for all I know. Then, ive never been a fan of that Legion/Chapter so I would be happy to be educated.

 

Betrayer though? Its telling a story to bridge a gap.

 

We know Angron must fall, we know that by the time he reached terra, he was a Daemon, and that his legion was nuts. No harm in documenting a bit of the how and why, to me.

 

I know you had a post on this though Veteran Sergeant, so I know you want/like your World Eaters as 2D as they can be, and thats a fine perspective, but for nearly everyone else I have ever chatted with that book was mana from heaven.

 

The why and how, of going from point A, to point B, in a way that didnt break any pre-existing story. I am cool with that.

 

EDIT: Someone needs to make a 'Horus Heresy - Summary' thread...to document where exactly we are in the arc, (the traditional arc) and where the major players are. I think once Scars finishes we will be in another bit of a slump of main/top tier content no?

[Veteran Sergeant]

Actually, I wasn't even talking about my disagreement with the way the World Eaters were inconsistently portrayed. I'm more talking about the World Eater/Word Bearer campaign across Ultramar that introduces more plot holes and more Primarch pinball. Ultimately, nothing that happened in that story was relevant. Angron could have turned at any time, and there was already plenty of reasons established for the Ultramarines to not make it to Terra. The whole story was a vehicle for Angron turning into a daemon prince, and would have been better done in a short story, audio drama, or a novella since it could have skipped over all the awkward meandering that was trying to pass as character development and the needless extra battle scenes. 

[Conn Eremon]

Some of us are even happy when they do break pre-existing fluff. I mean, hot damn, you can say that 40k is more made up of retcons than anything else. If you could use only one word to define Warhmmer 40k, grimdark would have topped anyone's list during the Rogue Trader days. From then on, it's been lonely at the top for retcon.

 

Some people hate and fear that word. It overturns this world they love and replaces it with one they don't.

 

Some of us see it and go "Oh, must've come up tails this time." And move on.

[Scribe]

Eh fair enough. I disagree of course to the main thrust that it was unnecessary, but (and please correct me if I am wrong) I didnt really see any massive plot holes?

 

Primarch Pinball, I can accept, because I agree with the concept that Primarchs can only face down Primarchs, and little else has a hope, and there was a lot of it in this book, and in Betrayer as Rob catches up with Lorgar/Angron.

 

The battles though, what was there? 2? One at the start, and one at the end...no? I dont know, I just got home from the gym and my minds a little fried but I dont really see Betrayer as bolter porn, far from it.

 

Different strokes and all I guess.