Unremembered Empire....initial review

[Kol Saresk]

I don't want to turn this into a whole thing, but actually Betrayer does two things. It confirms the executioner status. And then it raises the question of whether it was Emperor-ordained, or self-ordained. It neither proves nor disproves one of those two points. The Night of the Wolf served no purpose other than to direct the executioner aspect from possibly having something to do with the Lost Legions to something a bit more practical, such as apparently being the Emperor's voice in telling Angron to stop implanting the Nails, which we know is an old-fluff fact. Although how the sanction was carried out wasn't known until Betrayer. It shifts the focus of the executioner aspect, it does not negate it.

 

As for Word Bearers, their loyalty was so absolute that Lorgar thought that a great portion of the Legion was such a liability in not being able to follow his teachings that he sacrificed them at Calth. Not to mention Erebus stabbing other Word Bearers in the back and giving the bird to Lorgar.

 

For the Alpha Legion, well who knows where their loyalties lie? There's the whole schism with Alpharius and Omegon, and even the infamous Janus trusted his Primarchs so much that he actually hid portions of his security precautions from the rest of the Legion. Loyal, maybe. Trusting? Definitely not. Therefore, not "blind loyalty".

 

Then we get the four Istvaan III Legions. Well, they had Istvaan III.

 

The Iron Warriors? They have Warsmith Dantioch as well as the murders within their own ranks.

 

The Night Lords? Yeah, that needs no explaining. Even the Atramentar do not follow blindly.

 

The Loyalists? Well Dorn questions his own loyalty. Guilliman is having his loyalty questioned and even acknowledges that he has to tread lightly. The Lion is loyal only to the Emperor in a very CIA-like fashion. Khan is still on the fence. Vulkan is crazy. Corax is going psycho-Batman with the whole "I am Vengeance" routine. Ferrus? Well he was blind with rage in his last moments. Optimum part is "his last moments".

[karden00]

Does this book paint a satisfying picture of Macragge? So far we've only seen the tiniest of glimpses, what with the focus on and treatment of Calth and Armatura. 

I want more of the homeworld please :D

[Emperor's Furor]

It makes out they while they can deal with combat situations, they suck at security.

[Scribe]

Karden00: I think so, there is a good bit of description of the city, but I kind of gloss over those parts as its not central to me.

 

Kol: So you are saying, that loyalty of the space wolves is beyond question, and that is the 'go further' that they talk about? Interesting enough concept, but I highly highly doubt anyone would be foolish enough to claim ala Grey Knights, no wolf would ever fall.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on Betrayer re: Night of the Wolf, perhaps I'll take it to PM's. :D

 

UE Spoiler within.

 

 

 

Curze is very well written I find so far.

 

 

[ShadowMaster]

So...

 

 

 

 

So two Perpetuals kill Vulkan not once but several times over, with an assortment of xenos weapons?

 

Huh.

 

 

 

 

well he was completely mad so it does not count, Vulcan in his prime would not be brought down of course. 

 

 

[Kol Saresk]

For the Heresy era, I say the Wolves believe themselves(and currently are) so loyal to the point that it makes them dangerous. Where most of the Loyalists(even those at the Dropsite Massacre) were still hesitant about fighting other Astartes, the Wolves were not. If you were to present them with a situation, they would act with little to no hesitation. Take for example,

the challenge with the Lion. Except for an initial "I'd rather fight someone else", Faffnr has no real problem trying to fight the Lion. In fact, his first swing was so fast that Guilliman even takes notice and says that he may not have been able to catch it, the way the Lion did. Imagine what would have happened if the Wolves had been in that room with Guilliman versus the Alpha Legion.

[Scribe]

Right there Kol, you just bought into 'Wolves are better'.

 

That is my problem with what Abnett started.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

The way Curze is written...it really, really, really, really makes me want to start a petition to get Abnett to write Corax, too.

[Noctus Cornix]

Obedient Dogs would have been a better name for the Legion of Leman Russ.

[Kol Saresk]

No. I think it makes them more dangerous in certain aspects. They are no better than anyone else. I didn't say they were willing to kill more than any other Astartes. Just that were most of the Loyalists were still going "Is this really happening", the Wolves had already accepted it. They are no different from the World Eaters or Night Lords in that if they were to face Astartes, they really wouldn't think twice about it, even in the Great Crusade era. Those three Legions actually bear quite a bit of similarity to each other in a myriad of ways. Your assuming that because I see the Wolves are better in one aspect, that I'm saying they're better over all and are superior to the other Legions. No, I am not and no, they aren't. Stop assuming, it goes nowhere. They're still hypocrites as far as I am concerned and for as dangerous as their lack of hesitation due to the sheer blind, arrogant loyalty makes them, it also makes them weak. Hesitation can sometimes save your own skin just as much as no hesitation can. What good is it to run headlong if you run into a wall? At the same time, what good is it to stand still if a train is coming towards you? The Wolves run. They don't think. And as Guilliman pointed out, it makes them dangerous. Both to others and themselves, because they will run into that wall.

 

No one is beyond approach. So please, for the sake of civility, stop trying to put some sort of fanboyish "The Wolves are better" propaganda in my mouth where I have said no such thing just because I am playing Devil's advocate, which is nothing new from me.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Right there Kol, you just bought into 'Wolves are better'.

 

That is my problem with what Abnett started.

You should be complaining about how OP Curze is in the novel...he makes Papa Smurf look like a stillborn child.

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

Right there Kol, you just bought into 'Wolves are better'.

 

That is my problem with what Abnett started.

You should be complaining about how OP Curze is in the novel...he makes Papa Smurf look like a stillborn child.

Guilliman has already been beat up by an old man in power armor. I'll allow it.

:p

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Right there Kol, you just bought into 'Wolves are better'.

That is my problem with what Abnett started.

You should be complaining about how OP Curze is in the novel...he makes Papa Smurf look like a stillborn child.

Guilliman has already been beat up by an old man in power armor. I'll allow it.

And the Lion, at the same time. Not that I'm complaining - I love the story so far, but I hate it when people whine about things like the Wolves.

[Scribe]

Right there Kol, you just bought into 'Wolves are better'.

That is my problem with what Abnett started.

You should be complaining about how OP Curze is in the novel...he makes Papa Smurf look like a stillborn child.

There is a massive discrepancy between the 2, fully agreed.

I mean for 'collaborative fiction' and the fact we know the HH team discusses things, the power levels are just too vastly different.

Angron military presses a Warhound Titan after crawling through 400 (200 down, 200 up) feet of earth and rock.

Rob almost dies to 10 marines.

Legit?

Kol: I'm not putting words in your mouth. Look at what you put in spoilers. Honestly what did you intend if not to raise up the Wolves?

EDIT: Actually lets not discuss it. I'll start a new thread we can burn down later.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Right there Kol, you just bought into 'Wolves are better'.

That is my problem with what Abnett started.

You should be complaining about how OP Curze is in the novel...he makes Papa Smurf look like a stillborn child.

There is a massive discrepancy between the 2, fully agreed.

I mean for 'collaborative fiction' and the fact we know the HH team discusses things, the power levels are just too vastly different.

Angron military presses a Warhound Titan after crawling through 400 (200 down, 200 up) feet of earth and rock.

Rob almost dies to 10 marines.

Legit?

Kol: I'm not putting words in your mouth. Look at what you put in spoilers. Honestly what did you intend if not to raise up the Wolves?

EDIT: Actually lets not discuss it. I'll start a new thread we can burn down later.

Like ADB's said a zillion times a billion times a google amount of times...it's all about context, and what's happening at the moment, that defines what a Primarch can do.

[Scribe]

And?

 

Rob's almost gone down how many times? In cases where another Primarch would be laughing?

 

All I am saying is that the portrayal of Rob is not solid by Abnett. In Betrayer he was a different beast all together.

 

No way 10 marines touch Curze, Angron, Russ, Lorgar, Magnus, Lion. Not a chance given all we have seen.

[KJB]

Bought it this morning and finished it this afternoon, finally, I see why everyone raves about Abnett... Loved it!

[Apothecary Vaddon]

And?

 

Rob's almost gone down how many times? In cases where another Primarch would be laughing?

 

All I am saying is that the portrayal of Rob is not solid by Abnett. In Betrayer he was a different beast all together.

 

No way 10 marines touch Curze, Angron, Russ, Lorgar, Magnus, Lion. Not a chance given all we have seen.

According to your interpretation of what all Primarchs should have in terms of power levels. I'm perfectly fine with it.

Pretty excited to see what Vulkan does. I mean, it's pretty obvious that he's healed up. Perpetual-perpetual business and whatnot...and I love the depth Grammaticus has been given. 

[Wade Garrett]

I have to agree with Scribe. Lorgar went up against twenty Librarians after exhauating himself to bring about Angron's ascension and being smacked around by Guilliman, and he was winning until the Contemptor dreadnaught joined in.

 

Unless there is a boatload of context I'm missing ten Space Wolves should be a warm up for Robby G.

[Kol Saresk]

Scribe, I am doing no more for the Wolves than I'd do for any Legion, than what I have done for any Legion. I have defended and ttacked all 18 Legions and I stand by those defenses and attacks as each one did nothing more than point out all the facts that were either being conveniently forgotten, legitimately forgotten or colored by personal bias.

 

The Wolves are considered by themselves as executioners. Fact.(Betrayer, Prospero Burns, Unremembered Empire)

 

The Wolves are considered by others as executioners. Fact.(Betrayer, The Outcast Dead, Unremembered Empire)

 

The Wolves were Emperor-Ordained. Unknown. (Betrayer)

 

The Wolves were Self-Ordained. Unknown. (Betrayer)

 

The Wolves have been shown to hold no hesitation in attacking other Astartes. Fact. (A Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns, Betrayer, Unremembered Empire, Fear to Tread)

 

The Wolves have been shown to be involved with sanction-type actions, regardless of who issued the orders. Fact. (Betrayer, A Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns)

 

They are the only Legion to show such a trait. False opinion(aka, wrong) (Betrayer, Galaxy in Flames, The First Heretic)

 

There are examples of Loyalists hesitating or being bewildered by the idea of attacking other Astartes. Fact. (Galaxy in Flames, Know No Fear, Fulgrim)

 

All I am doing is stating facts. If you believe this is downgrading to the Wolves, that is fine. If someone believes this makes the Wolves superior, that is fine. Those are opinions. When it stops being fine, is when someone goes "Book A says Fact B" when Book A actually says Fact C but is being used to say Opinion D or Personal Interpretation E.

 

Wade:

 

You're missing a boatlod of context. Guilliman was literally a fish in a barrel during the attack. The things that saved him were that he was a Primarch and his would-be murderers were basically average Astartes. From what we can tell of a small demonstration of Faffnr's speed, he at least is not the average Astartes, no more so than Khârn, Sevatar, Amit, Sigismund or Corswain is.

[Legatus]

It appears that A D-B is attempting to make up for Abnett in several instances. Abnett put up the Space Wolves as the "Emperor's Executioners", then A D-B slightly qualifies that by stating that it was not necessarily an official mandate. Abnett claims the Space Wolves were chosen by the Emperor because they are the most ruthless and brutal of the Legions, then A D-B retroactively explains that by having members of the Night Lords and World Eaters Legions explain why "we cannot be trusted". Abnett has Guilliman beaten up by a Space Marine, then A D-B has him stand up to Lorgar and Angron. (And now Abnett is putting Guilliman down a few pegs again).

 

He has done that before as well. Spurrier claims that the Emperor had ordered the Night Lords to commit those atrocities and then conspired against them during the Great Crusade, then A D-B explains that Curze was paranoid and Sahal had simply bought into that. Thorpe alleges that Jonson may have waited to see who would win during the Battle for Terra, then A D-B shows how Jonson was utterly devoted to the Emperor.

 

I swear, A D-B is like the shining saviour of the 40K lore right now. (Well, ok, he had the Space Wolves fight the Inquisition after Armageddon, when the lore had said that they hadn't...)

 

 

And for all of you who wish for Abnett to write about this Legion or that: Be careful what you wish for. So far in three out of three cases he has significantly changed the lore of the Legion he was writing for. I loved the Ghosts series (and had even suggested it to some non-40K playing friends), but somehow everytime Abnett writes about Space Marines it turns horribly wrong.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

It appears that A D-B is attempting to make up for Abnett in several instances. Abnett put up the Space Wolves as the "Emperor's Executioners", then A D-B slightly qualifies that by stating that it was not necessarily an official mandate. Abnett claims the Space Wolves were chosen by the Emperor because they are the most ruthless and brutal of the Legions, then A D-B retroactively explains that by having members of the Night Lords and World Eaters Legions explain why "we cannot be trusted". Abnett has Guilliman beaten up by a Space Marine, then A D-B has him stand up to Lorgar and Angron. (And now Abnett is putting Guilliman down a few pegs again).

 

He has done that before as well. Spurrier claims that the Emperor had ordered the Night Lords to commit those atrocities and then conspired against them during the Great Crusade, then A D-B explains that Curze was paranoid and Sahal had simply bought into that. Thorpe alleges that Jonson may have waited to see who would win during the Battle for Terra, then A D-B shows how Jonson was utterly devoted to the Emperor.

 

I swear, A D-B is like the shining saviour of the 40K lore right now. (Well, ok, he had the Space Wolves fight the Inquisition after Armageddon, when the lore had said that they hadn't...)

 

 

And for all of you who wish for Abnett to write about this Legion or that: Be careful what you wish for. So far in three out of three cases he has significantly changed the lore of the Legion he was writing for. I loved the Ghosts series (and had even suggested it to some non-40K playing friends), but somehow everytime Abnett writes about Space Marines it turns horribly wrong.

If the new 40k tramples over the hopes of the old timers, I'm fine with that. Run the hopes over, ground them into dust, and bring the setting into the light of the future. Warp 10, please.

[Wade Garrett]

To be fair, "Lord of the Night" had other Night Lords turn up at the end and tell Sahaal nope, our dad was just bat crap insane. But we fans of the "Chaos Legions are just mmisunderstood tragic heroes" tend to overlook that bit.

 

Edit:

Funny, I thought "Don't run off your established customer base" was Business 101.

[Kol Saresk]

To be fair, "Lord of the Night" had other Night Lords turn up at the end and tell Sahaal nope, our dad was just bat crap insane. But we fans of the "Chaos Legions are just mmisunderstood tragic heroes" tend to overlook that bit.

Yeah, Curze has always been portrayed as more than a little insane. That is literally nothing new. Even Talos still believed the Night Lords had been sanctioned while Xarl is the voice saying "You really are naive" and Uzas and Cyrion are "Who cares? It's fun".

[Apothecary Vaddon]

To be fair, "Lord of the Night" had other Night Lords turn up at the end and tell Sahaal nope, our dad was just bat crap insane. But we fans of the "Chaos Legions are just mmisunderstood tragic heroes" tend to overlook that bit.

 

Edit:

Funny, I thought "Don't run off your established customer base" was Business 101.

I can see that happening: IP Head of GW: "Alright everyone, we're rolling back to the good ol' days! Bring back the genesperm, baby!"