Unremembered Empire....initial review

[Kol Saresk]

@Exscessus

I have two issues with Alpha's ine UE: firstly we as readers know that they will not succed so why bother? Secondly it makes RG look weak in comparison to others. I think that UE would lose nothing if it was no atempt to kill Roboute and no Alpha Legion in it. But if author felt they were necessary he could gave them achievable objective.

Why make the Wolves executioners when we know they're never going to kill a Legion?

[Excessus]

Why write about the heresy at all? We all knows how it ends...

[Red Angel]

 

@Exscessus

I have two issues with Alpha's ine UE: firstly we as readers know that they will not succed so why bother? Secondly it makes RG look weak in comparison to others. I think that UE would lose nothing if it was no atempt to kill Roboute and no Alpha Legion in it. But if author felt they were necessary he could gave them achievable objective.

Why make the Wolves executioners when we know they're never going to kill a Legion?

Why indeed? Wolves however somehow validated themselves during Razing of Prospero. Idea that 10 Astartes would be capable of killing primarch is in my opinion laughable, considering what kind of punishment they can take.

 

@Excessus

Looking at quality of Vulkan Lives, Fear to Tread, Promethean Sun or few more books one is beggining to wonder.

[Excessus]

Yeah, they can take punishment...unless AL brought munitions that is specifically designed to hurt them...

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, they can take punishment...unless AL brought munitions that is specifically designed to hurt them...

An it helps when the Primarch is unarmed, in ceremonial armor and with their guard down.

 

But still, Primarchs!

[Red Angel]

Yeah, they can take punishment...unless AL brought munitions that is specifically designed to hurt them...

I read the UE some time ago, so I don't remember much but it is said that Alphas used some special bolter rounds? Or is it just assuming? For me that scene just doesen't mesh well with primarch hype. It would be better if AL objective would be something else, or without their involvement altoegether. I get that the are good at infiltration but it is not necessary to infiltrate everything.

 

@Kol_Saresk

Essentialy yes. Primarchs are leagues away of Astartes, they are beings capable of besting Greater Demons. I preffer them as Lords of War not weaklings (relativly speaking). This scene was in my opinion unnecessary attempt at making things more realistic.

[Excessus]

It's assuming. Heck if I was to be pitted against a freaking primarch, I'd bring some damn firepower for it...

 

They don't infiltrate everything. They tried to assassinate one primarch, that doesn't mean they have done the same with all the others. Sure they infiltrated a few times before, it's their thing (it's not like they seem to be effective in any other thing when they are portrayed in BL books anyway) but the legion-infiltration tactics has a effectivness timer on it. The cat is out of the bag and the more they use it the less effective it will be, soon enough it can't be done anymore. It succeeds because of the shock and awe factor of it. So why wouldn't they use it as much as possible when the option was there...and besides, gambling on 10 marines to take out a primarch? If it paid off it would be huuuuge, if not, it's just 10 more bodies on the floor...

[Kol Saresk]

It's assuming. Heck if I was to be pitted against a freaking primarch, I'd bring some damn firepower for it...

 

They don't infiltrate everything. They tried to assassinate one primarch, that doesn't mean they have done the same with all the others. Sure they infiltrated a few times before, it's their thing (it's not like they seem to be effective in any other thing when they are portrayed in BL books anyway) but the legion-infiltration tactics has a effectivness timer on it. The cat is out of the bag and the more they use it the less effective it will be, soon enough it can't be done anymore. It succeeds because of the shock and awe factor of it. So why wouldn't they use it as much as possible when the option was there...and besides, gambling on 10 marines to take out a primarch? If it paid off it would be huuuuge, if not, it's just 10 more bodies on the floor...

And really, it isn't any different from the Wolves being sent in watch-packs of fives and tens. And yet somehow that scenario is magically plausible just because "executioners".

 

The Primarchs might be leagues above Astartes, and yet even Dorn still fell to them the Legiones.

[Red Angel]

It's assuming. Heck if I was to be pitted against a freaking primarch, I'd bring some damn firepower for it...

 

They don't infiltrate everything. They tried to assassinate one primarch, that doesn't mean they have done the same with all the others. Sure they infiltrated a few times before, it's their thing (it's not like they seem to be effective in any other thing when they are portrayed in BL books anyway) but the legion-infiltration tactics has a effectivness timer on it. The cat is out of the bag and the more they use it the less effective it will be, soon enough it can't be done anymore. It succeeds because of the shock and awe factor of it. So why wouldn't they use it as much as possible when the option was there...and besides, gambling on 10 marines to take out a primarch? If it paid off it would be huuuuge, if not, it's just 10 more bodies on the floor...

Assumption is part of the problem. It should not be needed, it should be plainly written in book that Alphas had some nasty guns/rounds/whatever with them.

As for infiltration I agree, not everything but I don't think that was necessary. And of course 10 marines for primarch is good deal but  odds are against it so hard that it don't make sense, for me at least. It just sending marines to death. I would preffer no AL involvement but some sneaky action could be better. Enemy should not know they were involved, only feel the results.

 

@Kol_Saresk

For me sending the Wolves is no more plausible. They to don't stand a chance. However I think their purpose was different - if they stop responding Terra may know something is not right.

About Dorn I imagine there was more than 10 astartes, and who know how (and if) it would be retconed.

[Kol Saresk]

You haven't by chance listen to Hunter's Moon have you?

[Red Angel]

You haven't by chance listen to Hunter's Moon have you?

No. But i read about it.

 

From what I heard one of the Wolves think that he executed real Alpharius

 

[WGXH]

As far as Curze vs The Lion in Savage Weapons, it's a Primarch who singlehandedly pacified his planet against the guy who needed a giant army at his back to accomplish the same thing, and who is later beaten into a ten thousand year coma by an old man semi-Astartes.

 

The outcome was fairly predictable.

 

Hm. Same primarch who then proceeded to literally beat Curze into a coma, and then made him proceed to the patented "Sir-Robin-Ran-Away" tactic? And said old man *was* on Horus-Ascended levels of Chaos juices. Just some food for thought. Any primarch can be easily diminished if you look at it from certain angles. I suppose when you think about it, Alpharius hasn't actually won a physical fight! He too must be an armless failure. Now you mention it, Jaghatai Khan is a glorified drunk-driver! Gosh.

 

 

 

As far as I personally am concerned, everybody saying that Curze deserved to win because he was 'in his element' is being pretty blind to it.

 

It'd be like Guilliman beating up Horus, Angron and Magnus in a handicap match because he was 'in his element'- having made like Patton and calling them magnificent bastards, and reading their books.

 

or Rogal Dorn fighting Curze again, and beating him into the mud because he's stood behind a fence.

 

So on, so forth. the "in their element" meaning they are greater than multiple of their brothers doesn't wash with me.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

As far as Curze vs The Lion in Savage Weapons, it's a Primarch who singlehandedly pacified his planet against the guy who needed a giant army at his back to accomplish the same thing, and who is later beaten into a ten thousand year coma by an old man semi-Astartes.

 

The outcome was fairly predictable.

Hm. Same primarch who then proceeded to literally beat Curze into a coma, and then made him proceed to the patented "Sir-Robin-Ran-Away" tactic?

They didn't have the Primarch. That much, he knew for certain. His surviving brothers spoke of it - of the Dark Angels' final overwhelming assault - and of Lord Curze at last realising the odds sweeping his sons into early graves.

 

He'd turned from the Lion in that moment, turned from the battle... and fled.

 

Yep. I was blind, but now I see. That second fight in Prince of Crows was obviously the Lion being such a melee combat monster that Curze ran in fear.

 

Brother Wade, we must flog ourselves as penance for this heinous crime of reading it black and white and then falsely presenting it.

 

Wait, I thought Wade hated Curze fighting decent in UE?

[Augustus]

I didn't think it was good but it's far from unbelievable.

 

Curze was smart to run away. I doubt fear incarnate feels fear as we do. Inside a belly of the Datk Angels Flag Ship vastly outnumbered. Tactically fleeing is the best bet. ;)

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

 

 

 

As far as Curze vs The Lion in Savage Weapons, it's a Primarch who singlehandedly pacified his planet against the guy who needed a giant army at his back to accomplish the same thing, and who is later beaten into a ten thousand year coma by an old man semi-Astartes.

 

The outcome was fairly predictable.

Hm. Same primarch who then proceeded to literally beat Curze into a coma, and then made him proceed to the patented "Sir-Robin-Ran-Away" tactic?

They didn't have the Primarch. That much, he knew for certain. His surviving brothers spoke of it - of the Dark Angels' final overwhelming assault - and of Lord Curze at last realising the odds sweeping his sons into early graves.

 

He'd turned from the Lion in that moment, turned from the battle... and fled.

 

Yep. I was blind, but now I see. That second fight in Prince of Crows was obviously the Lion being such a melee combat monster that Curze ran in fear.

 

Brother Wade, we must flog ourselves as penance for this heinous crime of reading it black and white and then falsely presenting it.

 

Wait, I thought Wade hated Curze fighting decent in UE?

Curze gaining the upper hand on one of his brothers and strangling him partly to death isn't quite the same thing as Curze duking it out with Guilliman and Johnson, then getting sucked into the Warp and punching his way out of it.

:p

[Kol Saresk]

I didn't think it was good but it's far from unbelievable.

Curze was smart to run away. I doubt fear incarnate feels fear as we do. Inside a belly of the Datk Angels Flag Ship vastly outnumbered. Tactically fleeing is the best bet.

Actually, I chalk it up to Curze's innate character. Look at how he developed. His whole life he has been running away from one simple fact: He is a monster. He tries to hide it under a false pretense of saying it was "for the greater good" and that "it was the only way". But he always knew the truth. When he had pacified Nostramo, he practically jumped at the chance to leave behind the evidence of his nature. When he destroyed Nostramo, he realized that he had put the monster into the spotlight, so he ran to the farthest reaches of the galaxy, away from plain sight. And then when he was offered to join the Traitors, he took it because what better place for a monster to hide than among its own kind? But then, Sevatar forced him to face the truth. And when he was in the bowels of the Invincible Reason, the truth stood in front of him yet again, pointing out that he would destroy his own sons if it meant being true to his nature. So he ran, one last time.

From there, my guess would be that with the truth now fixed firmly in front of his face as he spent sixteen weeks evading the Lion and killing any others who came after him, he broke. And when he broke, he no longer sought to escape the monster, but instead embraced it. For the first time in his life, he truly became the Night Haunter, not just in name, but in body, mind and soul.

@Wade: Fair enough.

[daveNYC]

Thing that bothers me about things like trying to kill Guilliman is that if AL can get ten astartes in a position to shoot Guilliman in the face, then they should probably have no problem getting five guys and a freaking huge bomb right next to the geller field generator on his flagship.

 

Guess which plan would probably have a better chance of working.  AL should be about attacking someone where they are weak.  Not just when they're weak, where they're weak, and fighting is the one area where primarchs are definitely not weak.

[Cactus]

Thing that bothers me about things like trying to kill Guilliman is that if AL can get ten astartes in a position to shoot Guilliman in the face, then they should probably have no problem getting five guys and a freaking huge bomb right next to the geller field generator on his flagship.

Maybe they did, but there's no point detonating it until until Guilliman's on board and in the Warp. Perhaps we'll find out in book LXXVI

Alternatively, maybe they were expected to fail. Alpharius (or Omegon) might think it's worth sacrificing ten astartes to maintain the cover that Omegon (or Alpharius) has sided with Horus.

In any case, that sequence in the novel didn't bother me at all. In fact I enjoyed it, as I did the majority of the book.

[Kol Saresk]

Thing that bothers me about things like trying to kill Guilliman is that if AL can get ten astartes in a position to shoot Guilliman in the face, then they should probably have no problem getting five guys and a freaking huge bomb right next to the geller field generator on his flagship.

 

Guess which plan would probably have a better chance of working.  AL should be about attacking someone where they are weak.  Not just when they're weak, where they're weak, and fighting is the one area where primarchs are definitely not weak.

Not really. Remember how they did it. They used the identity of an Ultramarine who pretty much has special dispensation to go anywhere in Macragge. Guilliman then ordered security to let them bypass every single checkpoint and defensive measure that would have blown their cover. This was a one trick pony, pure and simple. And it will never work again, regardless of how they try to do it.

 

If anything, I'd say that it was inspired by the events in Hunter's Moon, which going by the narrative would almost have to place it between Prospero and the discovery of Istvaan III.

[daveNYC]

AL do have an out. Whatever they're currently up to can always be explained as being part of some quintuple-double-cross that they've got going.

[Kol Saresk]

 

AL do have an out. Whatever they're currently up to can always be explained as being part of some quintuple-double-cross that they've got going.

Okay, not sire what you mean but let me put it this way. In the wave of Pollux redefining Macragge's security measures and the Ultramarines now being aware of the Alpha Legion kill-teams, the Alpha Legion can try all it wants, for whatever reason it wants, but they will never get as close to succeeding as that first attempt and each failed attempt will only result in the next one being that much more difficult. It won't work.

[daveNYC]

Naw, didn't mean anything by that as far as your comment went.  I'm just slow with the replies, so I was responding to Cactus and your response came in.

[WGXH]

From there, my guess would be that with the truth now fixed firmly in front of his face as he spent sixteen weeks evading the Lion and killing any others who came after him, he broke. And when he broke, he no longer sought to escape the monster, but instead embraced it. For the first time in his life, he truly became the Night Haunter, not just in name, but in body, mind and soul.

 

Okay, not going to lie. That description is really badass. I stll don't think it quite washes with taking on a dynamic duo, though. It'd be the same if Robby G was able to fully hold off Lorgar and Angron in Betrayer. That's just my 2 pence on the subject.

 

I must say though, Kol, you do a pretty expert analysis on the inner mind of Curze. I hope you were not offended by my interpretation of the events in Prince of Crows- though I suppose it does highlught my point that it is incredibly easy to make a primarch sound incredibly pathetic when you choose to just look at certain factors. Mortarion? A goth kid with the flu!

 

For what it is worth, Curze fleeing from the Lion at that moment was probably the correct call. Just so happens it really panned out for him, though with his stealthy capabilities, I imagined he looked at it as a way to bleed the Dark Angels legion for as long as possible while his own sons were in prison before springing them.