Unremembered Empire....initial review

[Wade Garrett]

I can see that happening: IP Head of GW: "Alright everyone, we're rolling back to the good ol' days! Bring back the genesperm, baby!"

Because GeneSEED is so much classier. And if the Black Templars can hug their astropaths and the Iron Hands get in touch with their fleshy

sides, there should be no problem with the Ultramarines half Eldar Librarian Corps.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

I can see that happening: IP Head of GW: "Alright everyone, we're rolling back to the good ol' days! Bring back the genesperm, baby!"

Because GeneSEED is so much classier. And if the Black Templars can hug their astropaths and the Iron Hands get in touch with their fleshy l

sides, there should be no problem with the Ultramarines half Eldar Librarian Corps.

All in the name of keeping the peeps who were here before the video game nerds and bookworms joined up with the setting happy!

[Gree]

 

 

So...

 

 

 

 

So two Perpetuals kill Vulkan not once but several times over, with an assortment of xenos weapons?

 

Huh.

 

 

Yeah but he gets up faster and faster and there's a point earlier on in the book when Curze finally thinks he's done in Vulkan only for Vulkan to open his eyes Curze goes "Oh that was quick" and then swiftly receives a smack to the face.

 

 

 

It's not that, but the ease of which they kill a Primarch that perturbs me. Apparently some Eldar shuriken weapon can not only kill a Primarch, but kill him multiple times. Then we have Narek the Word Bearer casually dispatch a Primarch with a sniper rifle.

 

It doesn't matter if Vulkan just resurrects. The fact is that they're killing a Primarch that easily in the first place, despite the fact we see Primarchs take more sever wounds and shrug them off.

 

 

[Wade Garrett]

I will admit to missing the logic chain that starts out "Why does Dan Abnett make Guilliman the Brooklyn Brawler of the Heresy?" and ends with "Bring back Inquisitor Obi Wan Sherlock Cloiseu!"

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I will admit to missing the logic chain that starts out "Why does Dan Abnett make Guilliman the Brooklyn Brawler of the Heresy?" and ends with "Bring back Inquisitor Obi Wan Sherlock Cloiseu!"

I too will admit to missing the logic that chains people to the holdovers of the Rogue Trader era.

But all of this is aside the point. We've derailed the thread enough already, and if we don't stop this thread'll get locked for a few days like Scars did. So, you can have the last word, Garrett. I'm done.

[Scribe]

Wolves endeared themselves to me it seems about what...60% in. We will see how this finishes....

[Blood Angel Scout]

On  a slightly related note, what happens in Censure to Thiel, considering his appearance in UE?

[depthcharge12]

Who seem to be the Lion's closest men?

 

 

Nemiel takes a fist to the face, Zahariel is a traitor, Alajos gets Sevatar'd, and Corswain is chasing Curze around fighting the rest of the Thramas crusade iirc

 

 

Who's left, or who is new?

[Brother Captain Andrew]

Thus far a great book, however the (and this is admittedly from a loyalist fan) Curze was just a bit too much. Plot terminator armor at least for this book compared to previous entries.

 

 

The Lion basically wrestled Curze to a stalemate in savage weapons, and beat down Curze twice, almost decapitating Curze in the opening of Prince of Crows, in one on one duels. Meanwhile in Vulkan Lives Vulkan beats the crap out of Curze once he finally gets his hands on the Night Haunter. Now we add Guilliman to these equations and somehow Curze is outsmarting and out figthing multiple Primarchs.

 

 

My other major beef is that once again the Ultras are used as a set piece to make everyone else look awesome. The Lion is the most intriguing character of the book. Dantioch and Pollux are pretty awesome. The wolves are uniquely irreverant and enjoyable when on the page. Meanwhile Guilliman gets one solid scene 

unarmored vs the Alpha legion assassins

while the rest of the boys in blue are made to look incompetent throughout the book. 

Unable to correctly fortify Macragge (though the Fists and IW had to have something to do), Ultras are unable to stay composed when the $#!+ hits the fan, and unable to do anything but stand around waiting for Curze to kill.

 

[Vazzy]

Thus far a great book, however the (and this is admittedly from a loyalist fan) Curze was just a bit too much. Plot terminator armor at least for this book compared to previous entries.

 

 

The Lion basically wrestled Curze to a stalemate in savage weapons, and beat down Curze twice, almost decapitating Curze in the opening of Prince of Crows, in one on one duels. Meanwhile in Vulkan Lives Vulkan beats the crap out of Curze once he finally gets his hands on the Night Haunter. Now we add Guilliman to these equations and somehow Curze is outsmarting and out figthing multiple Primarchs.

 

 

My other major beef is that once again the Ultras are used as a set piece to make everyone else look awesome. The Lion is the most intriguing character of the book. Dantioch and Pollux are pretty awesome. The wolves are uniquely irreverant and enjoyable when on the page. Meanwhile Guilliman gets one solid scene 

unarmored vs the Alpha legion assassins

while the rest of the boys in blue are made to look incompetent throughout the book. 

Unable to correctly fortify Macragge (though the Fists and IW had to have something to do), Ultras are unable to stay composed when the $#!+ hits the fan, and unable to do anything but stand around waiting for Curze to kill.

 

 

This. I really enjoyed the book, but I wads sick of Ultramarines being useless red shirts throughout the novel. My God though, Curze has plot armor a meter thick. I was sick of it. 

[depthcharge12]

Im beginning to recant my thoughts of having Abnett write the HH.

 

 

Gaunt's Ghosts - epitome that is Abnett

 

Horus rising - the one that started it all

 

Prospero burns - haven't read it, but have a hard time remaining objective toward that book (I'll give Dan the benefit of the doubt)

 

Legion - I really enjoyed, but very partisan to differing AL fans

 

Know No Fear - awesome, really enjoyed these boys in blue, when I disliked their bland OTT flagship of GW

 

Unremembered Empire - Sounds great at first, but then...what the hell? Plot armor? that didn't exist to Abnett's ghosts. What happened to the great Ultra legion that he had? Theoretical/practical? What happened Dan?

[Tonal]

I quite enjoyed the book, certainly the best HH book so far but for Mechanicum. I'm sad there was so little of my all-time favorite Heresy character, Dantioch, but he got some official artwork, so there's that.

 

I do wonder what happened to the others, though. Dantioch escaped in The Iron Within with a Captain, Chaplain, Sargent, two Battle Brothers, and a captured Flagship. Yet none of this is even alluded too in the slightest.

[Marshal Rohr]

So UE marks the turning point of the fan base from 'Night Lords are cool' to 'Ugh no way, thats plot armor'.

 

You could develop a thesis on the development of 40K fans love for certain groups. 

[Brother Captain Andrew]

So UE marks the turning point of the fan base from 'Night Lords are cool' to 'Ugh no way, thats plot armor'.

 

You could develop a thesis on the development of 40K fans love for certain groups. 

Probably true, though I have never been a Night Lords fan (though I haven't read A D-B's apparently excellent Night Lords), Curze has always too Bat-$#!+ for me to really develop much interest in. Magnus' tragedy, Alpharius' plotting, Horus' naked ambition, and even Lorgar's rejection are all threads I find interesting but simple lunacy and sociopathy of Primarchs like Angron and Curze don't hold much interest for me. 

 

I think the other issue for me is the bumbling portrayal that certain legions/characters get, namely Guilliman and the Ultramarine's, but also to a lesser extent Dorn's Fists. Just compared to the loyalist legions the Ultras and their Primarch look pathetic. The Lion and his legion crush Curze in the Thramas Crusade, the Blood Angels literally destroy a demonic horde led by two incredibly powerful greater daemons, Russ breaks Magnus in half en route to burning Propsero to ash, Corax nearly kills Lorgar on Istvaan.  Meanwhile Guilliman almost goes down to a warp powered genetically altered human and to 

10 alpha legion marines

in another instance. 

 

Add in the Insane feats some of the traitor primarchs are shown to do: Angron's titan bench-press, Lorgar walking away from two titan plasma shots to the face, Fulgrim destroying a titan with a thought.

 

(Take all this with a grain of salt as the Ultras and Fists are my two favorite legions so seeing them portrayed as inferior to the other legions is somewhat irksome)

[Scribe]

Great book. I feel I could write some seriously long posts on this book.

 

Shotgun of thoughts after finishing it, but this didnt really FINISH anything, great story, but closure...not coming. Its another jump off point, just like I felt Know No Fear was.

 

 

 

1. I am too harsh on the Wolves, and Abnett regarding them. There are a lot of positives that they portray and concepts that they push that are suitably badass, but the executioner bit just grinds me to the bone. Good scenes with them all told, and I just need to move on I suppose. As long as no Wolf fanboy gets all up in arms I think I can just accept it for what it is.

 

2. Not much of a showing for the shattered forces, I wonder when we next will see the Iron Warriors and the Loyalists from AE.

 

3. I want a whole story, nay, a whole line of stories on Perpetuals. This is where I think Abnett's strengths (and bias) really comes through.

 

It was touched on earlier, but he doesnt seem to want the Primachs to be transhuman demigods ++++. Thinking back to Legion we had a geneforged human almost beat an Astartes no? It seems thats where Abnett comes in. Primarch ~= 10-15 Marines ~= 2-5 Geneforged ~= 2-3 Humans? I dont know, I go back to that Angron comparison to the staying power of a Primarch, and frankly there is a disconnect there between ADB and DA.

 

I mean I get the whole plot armour thing for Curze, but ONLY because Abnett made Rob look so..mortal. Same with Vulkan. He died to some pretty 'normal' wounds. Meanwhile, Curze does a lot of pretty paranormal things, and walks away.

 

4. The story is woven so well. I really didnt want to put it down, finished it in 2 sittings really and I am not that fast a reader.

 

5. The UM didnt look bad at all in the book. Yet the other Legion's characters got to shine at something. This was well done imo.

 

6. Curze, ah my good friend Curze. He's nuts. He's 'evil'. He's truly fallen at this point, and I was wrong, hes not trying to subvert fate. He is trying to drag those around him, down to where he knows on some level he has fallen and then subvert fate by them killing him.

 

Will be tough to recover the character from a present state I think. He's well past what we saw in Savage Weapons, well well past, and likely far beyond the lucid moments in Prince of Crows really.

 

 

 

 

All in all, 8/10 for me. A few power level type concerns are all I really have, as there is just a bit of a disconnect that isnt flowing from what we see in one novel to another.

 

EDIT: This cements my opinion that only ADB can do the Emperor vs Horus though.

 

Dan can set the table like nobodies business, but I can only put my faith in ADB for the showdown.

[Kol Saresk]

Nevermind. I am pretty sure I came across as overly harsh and am more than willing to bet y opinion is unwanted anyways. I'll voice it if and when I decide to write up a review.

[Scribe]

Kol: There was nothing wrong with your post.

I like the Predator parallel actually, a ton.

EDIT: And who cares is one's opinion is 'unwanted' this is a message board, sharing opinions is what it exists for. Light some fires buddy, do your Primarch proud.

My issue is this. Rob ALMOST dies to 10 Marines. Curze laughs his way through 10 Marines, and fights with Vulkan, and a trip through the warp inside a daemon.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

as a Wolf for the last 14 years, can I have the Wolf parts spoiled for me? I want to get a heads up for which way the winds blowing for the fanboys and haters.

 

WLK

[Scribe]

 

 

Wolves show up. Talk all 30K wolfy, though not that bad. And tell Rob they are here on orders to watch him, and if needed pull their bad ass executioner moves.

 

Rob sighs, and lets it go.

 

Wolves embarrass Rob to go have the Duel, with the Angels. Funny, but no shame in it as the lead wolf gets beat by Lion.

 

Lots of forced wolf/dog analogies. It was painful for a bit. BUT!!!!!!!!

 

Wolves save Robs mom, and are pretty cool for doing so.

 

 

 

Thats it.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay Scribe fair enough. Let me just say that Guilliman was a fish in a barrel that was being shot at by rocket-propelled, explosive, high-caliber bullets. Literally. I'm more than willing to say and defend that any Primarch would be hard-pressed to survive that kind of situation. It's one thing to attack ten unsuspecting Astartes. It's another to be ambushed by them.

 

And like I said, I do agree that he was OTT. However, I also feel that this impression is simply from the fact that for once, we are seeing Curze in his element, in all of his terrible, twisted and dark glory. We're used to seeing Astartes sneak up and slam swords in his back or him running away, not fighting as the Night Haunter.

 

So without further ado, these are my thoughts. I've done my best to present the facts as shown in the books as well as add my opinions alongside. These are only related to certain aspects of the book, it is not a full review.

 

Oh yay, another devil's advocate session.

 

Let me start off by saying that Curze is quite a bit OTT, but no more than any other Primarch when they're at their shining examples of awesomeness.

 

Actually, it isn't plot armor. For example, Savage Weapons. The Lion did not make it a standstill. The Lion struck first. Curze ha the Lion's throat in his claws when Corswain intervened and slammed a sword into his back. Corswain evened the odds.

 

Prince of Crows. We walk in on the end of the fight. Curze has his throat slit. We only know a few of the specifics, which are that the Lion decided to fight Curze with a thousand cut method. Necessary inference tells us that this kind of method is primarily used against someone who is of such skill that waiting for the opportune moment is nigh on impossible and thus, the killing blow has to be engineered, not taken advantage of. Such as inflicting a least eleven wounds that would have instantly killed an Astartes each, damage to unknown blood vessels and unknown organs as well as dozens of wounds to pretty much every vital area imaginable. The Lion didn't deliver an almighty smackdown to Curze. He had to wear him out with blood and sweat. The final repercussions of that wearing down simply makes it look like an almighty smackdown.

 

For the third fight, well we really don't know the entirety of that fight. We just know the Night Lords were losing and being surrounded on all sides. Curze and the Lion were going at it. Even then, neither Primarch was beaten. Curze ran. And according to Sevatar, or rather what Sevatar heard from others since he was unconscious, Curze ran because he realized he was killing his sons. For all intents and purposes, the third fight was a surrender, not an almighty smackdown.

 

And here, we get Curze being hunted for sixteen weeks. For sixteen weeks, he was evading the Lion, the Primarch who grew up hunting with other animals. And why is Curze succeeding? I point you to his early history on Nostramo.

 

Then the Primarch who excels in terror tactics makes it to Macragge. And low and behold, it is plot armor that this Primarch who excels in terror tactics is so good at them. What a shock. Nevermind the fact that two Astartes with an empathic field manage to wound him several times. Nevermind the fact that he is so confident in his visions, including the one that says it's not quite his time yet, that he believes himself to be invincible and is quite probably the most in-sync he has ever been with them. No, it's plot armor. Because.

 

The Night Lords are supposed to be cowards and weaklings who either fight those who are inferior, or fight when they believe they have the advantage. Oh wait, Curze sees Astartes as inferior. And he believes he has the advantage the whole time. And for the first time since he haunted Nostramo, he is the Night Haunter!

 

But because he's shown as being suicidal in Vulkan Lives, where he bows down and wants to be killed and does just enough to push Vulkan to that edge but then literally does nothing as Vulkan does deliver an almighty smackdown, apparently he can't do squat so it is plot armor when he does do something.

 

Granted, the portrayals aren't exactly equal here. Then again, name a fight where the portrayals are equal. Nuceria, Guilliman was fresh from Calth. The Invincible Reason, Curze was fresh from his death bed. Macragge, well the whole city is only dealing with massed confusion of an "accidental" drop-pod followed by the mass murder of several dozen Astartes by a Primarch who is currently seeing roughly three seconds into the future, and has also had false visions during that time.

 

Guilliman and the Lion are shown at disadvantages because currently, both aren't exactly the most trusting of others, or even each other. They aren't in-sync. It'd be like throwing a squad of British soldiers into a firefight with American soldiers at their side, with neither having experience operating alongside the other or even troops from other countries and expecting both to be like pieces of a puzzle fitting together perfectly. The Lion and Guilliman are not use to fighting alongside each other. So to expect them to fight like Angron and Lorgar who fought more than a few battles side by side before Nuceria is, well frankly its balderdash.

 

So let us ignore the fact that we are seeing Curze in his element, a city darkened and confused. Let us ignore the fact that he is fighting fully within his MO. Let us ignore the fact that he is cut at least seven times before he blows up the Chapel of Memorial. No, let us ignore that and call it plot armor. Because we can.

 

Also, let us ignore things like Guilliman was trapped in a room with ten bolters less than twenty feet away from him with few places to use as cover. Or that the Dark Angels only destroyed a fifth of the Night Lords' fleet, because that's Dropsite Massacre proportions right there and it isn't like any f the Traitor Legions sacrificed at least as much at Istvaan III. Oh wait.

 

So please, present the facts with your opinion so as to provide context so those who are just reading your opinion and cannot read the facts are not misinformed.

 

Is Curze OTT here? A bit. Is it plot armor? Not really. It's the fact that Dan Abnett put him in his prime. When Curze shows up, its no different from a Predator movie. There's even a self-destruct scene.

 

Plot armor is actually Guilliman. Because we know he makes it past the Scouring. And because of that, he is being shown taking some serious blows because we all know way deep down that he'll survive because anything else is contradictory to the plot.

 

Plot armor was Prince of Crows when Curze was on his death bed. Why? Because we all know the plot has him dying on Tsagualsa. Therefore, we know way deep down inside that no matter how convincingly awesome A D-B made the scene, Curze would survive.

 

If you want plot armor, look at the Primarchs at their worst because no matter how convincing it might be, they will survive until their appointed times because that is what the plot demands.

 

So again, please present the facts with your opinions so as to present misinformation.

 

Because right now, Guilliman's portrayal is actually similar to Curze's portrayal preceding Unremembered Empire, but without something like Vulkan Lives with a complete and total misportrayal of a given character. The difference is, we're used to seeing Guilliman up on a pedestal, unlike Curze.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

How do I post in the spoiler format? I want to ask another question but dont want to post too much in the question...

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

[*spoiler] [*/spoiler] but without the *

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Scribe: Thanks alot!

 

Rob's reaction seems a little odd to me, considering he considers Russ one of his Dauntless Few. And I read "badass executioner moves" as "get butchered terribly". Maybe I need to check the perscription of my glasses...

Why do the Wolves duel the Angels? the feud really hasnt been mentioned, that ive caught, until this point. And do you mean THE Lion fights the lead Wolf?!

And saves Rob's mom? Sounds interesting.

 

 

@Kol: thanks for the help, i'll try to remember...no promises.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

 

Guilliman isn't against Russ. He acknowledges Russ for what Russ, or at least as Guilliman see him. And that is something of a savage noble. So he does respect Russ and even considers him one of the Dauntless Few. However, the savagery still counts against him in Guilliman's opinion.

 

The feud sort of has and hasn't been mentioned. IIRC, so far it has only been mentioned in passing in Fallen Angels. Here it sort of pops up again.

 

The Wolves demand honor be satisfied. So they ask for the Lion to name his Champion. The Lion volunteers. An axe swing so fast to surprise Guilliman and a punch to the chest later, Faffnr is on his knees and honor is satisfied.

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Kol: thats AWESOME, thanks!

 

and makes sense, I blitzed through the DA novels, they were pretty weak in my lowly opinion. Being mentioned there means I probably missed it.