Unremembered Empire....initial review

[Excessus]

Waaaait, Alpha Legion? Seems I will be getting this book... :P

[Vazzy]

 

Okay Scribe fair enough. Let me just say that Guilliman was a fish in a barrel that was being shot at by rocket-propelled, explosive, high-caliber bullets. Literally. I'm more than willing to say and defend that any Primarch would be hard-pressed to survive that kind of situation. It's one thing to attack ten unsuspecting Astartes. It's another to be ambushed by them.

 

And like I said, I do agree that he was OTT. However, I also feel that this impression is simply from the fact that for once, we are seeing Curze in his element, in all of his terrible, twisted and dark glory. We're used to seeing Astartes sneak up and slam swords in his back or him running away, not fighting as the Night Haunter.

 

So without further ado, these are my thoughts. I've done my best to present the facts as shown in the books as well as add my opinions alongside. These are only related to certain aspects of the book, it is not a full review.

 

Oh yay, another devil's advocate session.

 

Let me start off by saying that Curze is quite a bit OTT, but no more than any other Primarch when they're at their shining examples of awesomeness.

 

Actually, it isn't plot armor. For example, Savage Weapons. The Lion did not make it a standstill. The Lion struck first. Curze ha the Lion's throat in his claws when Corswain intervened and slammed a sword into his back. Corswain evened the odds.

 

Prince of Crows. We walk in on the end of the fight. Curze has his throat slit. We only know a few of the specifics, which are that the Lion decided to fight Curze with a thousand cut method. Necessary inference tells us that this kind of method is primarily used against someone who is of such skill that waiting for the opportune moment is nigh on impossible and thus, the killing blow has to be engineered, not taken advantage of. Such as inflicting a least eleven wounds that would have instantly killed an Astartes each, damage to unknown blood vessels and unknown organs as well as dozens of wounds to pretty much every vital area imaginable. The Lion didn't deliver an almighty smackdown to Curze. He had to wear him out with blood and sweat. The final repercussions of that wearing down simply makes it look like an almighty smackdown.

 

For the third fight, well we really don't know the entirety of that fight. We just know the Night Lords were losing and being surrounded on all sides. Curze and the Lion were going at it. Even then, neither Primarch was beaten. Curze ran. And according to Sevatar, or rather what Sevatar heard from others since he was unconscious, Curze ran because he realized he was killing his sons. For all intents and purposes, the third fight was a surrender, not an almighty smackdown.

 

And here, we get Curze being hunted for sixteen weeks. For sixteen weeks, he was evading the Lion, the Primarch who grew up hunting with other animals. And why is Curze succeeding? I point you to his early history on Nostramo.

 

Then the Primarch who excels in terror tactics makes it to Macragge. And low and behold, it is plot armor that this Primarch who excels in terror tactics is so good at them. What a shock. Nevermind the fact that two Astartes with an empathic field manage to wound him several times. Nevermind the fact that he is so confident in his visions, including the one that says it's not quite his time yet, that he believes himself to be invincible and is quite probably the most in-sync he has ever been with them. No, it's plot armor. Because.

 

The Night Lords are supposed to be cowards and weaklings who either fight those who are inferior, or fight when they believe they have the advantage. Oh wait, Curze sees Astartes as inferior. And he believes he has the advantage the whole time. And for the first time since he haunted Nostramo, he is the Night Haunter!

 

But because he's shown as being suicidal in Vulkan Lives, where he bows down and wants to be killed and does just enough to push Vulkan to that edge but then literally does nothing as Vulkan does deliver an almighty smackdown, apparently he can't do squat so it is plot armor when he does do something.

 

Granted, the portrayals aren't exactly equal here. Then again, name a fight where the portrayals are equal. Nuceria, Guilliman was fresh from Calth. The Invincible Reason, Curze was fresh from his death bed. Macragge, well the whole city is only dealing with massed confusion of an "accidental" drop-pod followed by the mass murder of several dozen Astartes by a Primarch who is currently seeing roughly three seconds into the future, and has also had false visions during that time.

 

Guilliman and the Lion are shown at disadvantages because currently, both aren't exactly the most trusting of others, or even each other. They aren't in-sync. It'd be like throwing a squad of British soldiers into a firefight with American soldiers at their side, with neither having experience operating alongside the other or even troops from other countries and expecting both to be like pieces of a puzzle fitting together perfectly. The Lion and Guilliman are not use to fighting alongside each other. So to expect them to fight like Angron and Lorgar who fought more than a few battles side by side before Nuceria is, well frankly its balderdash.

 

So let us ignore the fact that we are seeing Curze in his element, a city darkened and confused. Let us ignore the fact that he is fighting fully within his MO. Let us ignore the fact that he is cut at least seven times before he blows up the Chapel of Memorial. No, let us ignore that and call it plot armor. Because we can.

 

Also, let us ignore things like Guilliman was trapped in a room with ten bolters less than twenty feet away from him with few places to use as cover. Or that the Dark Angels only destroyed a fifth of the Night Lords' fleet, because that's Dropsite Massacre proportions right there and it isn't like any f the Traitor Legions sacrificed at least as much at Istvaan III. Oh wait.

 

So please, present the facts with your opinion so as to provide context so those who are just reading your opinion and cannot read the facts are not misinformed.

 

Is Curze OTT here? A bit. Is it plot armor? Not really. It's the fact that Dan Abnett put him in his prime. When Curze shows up, its no different from a Predator movie. There's even a self-destruct scene.

 

Plot armor is actually Guilliman. Because we know he makes it past the Scouring. And because of that, he is being shown taking some serious blows because we all know way deep down that he'll survive because anything else is contradictory to the plot.

 

Plot armor was Prince of Crows when Curze was on his death bed. Why? Because we all know the plot has him dying on Tsagualsa. Therefore, we know way deep down inside that no matter how convincingly awesome A D-B made the scene, Curze would survive.

 

If you want plot armor, look at the Primarchs at their worst because no matter how convincing it might be, they will survive until their appointed times because that is what the plot demands.

 

So again, please present the facts with your opinions so as to present misinformation.

 

Because right now, Guilliman's portrayal is actually similar to Curze's portrayal preceding Unremembered Empire, but without something like Vulkan Lives with a complete and total misportrayal of a given character. The difference is, we're used to seeing Guilliman up on a pedestal, unlike Curze.

I agree with you Kol, I really do. No matter how much a primarch is in danger, we all know he isn't going to die, as he's referenced later in the story. Plot armor comes off harsh, I'll admit it, but every damn major player in 40k has it, and it's expected. I guess what I'm really upset about is how much the Haunter messes up Macragge. I loved Macragge's description, and it killed me to see it so totalled.  I guess that's why the Night Haunter made me so irritated. But I'm also going to say this...I'm a bit tired of Curze and his Legions....

[Kol Saresk]

:P

 

We all new the fight had to be taken to Macragge sometime.

[Vazzy]

Just because your homeworld got blown up doesn't mean the mine does too....

[Kol Saresk]

At least Curze did both?

[Noctus Cornix]

Just because your homeworld got blown up doesn't mean the mine does too....

 

Yes it does.

[Verity]

Yeah, I really don't believe there's enough reason to claim Curze has more plot armour than any other Primarch.

[WGXH]

 

Prince of Crows. We walk in on the end of the fight. Curze has

his throat slit. We only know a few of the specifics, which are that the

Lion decided to fight Curze with a thousand cut method. Necessary

inference tells us that this kind of method is primarily used against

someone who is of such skill that waiting for the opportune moment is

nigh on impossible and thus, the killing blow has to be engineered, not

taken advantage of. Such as inflicting a least eleven wounds that would

have instantly killed an Astartes each, damage to unknown blood vessels and

unknown organs as well as dozens of wounds to pretty much every vital

area imaginable. The Lion didn't deliver an almighty smackdown to Curze.

He had to wear him out with blood and sweat. The final repercussions of

that wearing down simply makes it look like an almighty smackdown.

.

 

 

I fail to see this logic. When Mike Tyson gained the Junior Olympic world record for fastest KO(8 seconds, for what it's worth), that doesn't mean the other guy was so insanely hard it forced Tyson to beat him to the mud and quickly. It only means that he lost. Jim Robinson isn't remembered as a hard man for losing to Ali in one round, either. I completely fail to see this logic that forcing somebody into a coma in a matter of seconds makes the other person that "such skill waiting for the opportune moment is nigh on impossible".

 

Please, explain to me.

 

[Kol Saresk]

Because of how he did it. Inflicting that many injuries takes time, even for a Primarch. The fact that several Night Lords go "I saw them fighting", means that it took time, enough time to be witnessed by several characters at different points in the battle. Unless of course, they all happened to look at the exact same time. Even if it didn't take time, the method itself is something that is used only when a swift beheading or a stab through the heart cannot be, or is chosen not to be. We've seen the Lion due swift, deadly strokes before. So we know he could do it. Yet he choose the long game method of fighting. You don't just choose that unless you are a sadist. And the Lion might be many things, but he is not a sadist. So as a result, since we know the Lion deals out single striking blows whenever he can, the fact that he chose not to in this one fight means he did not see it as a possibility. The Lion is a supreme combatant after all. He may not have been seen giving an all-mighty smackdown on Curze, but after one fight, he was able to analyze and counter Curze. Now, while he may not have delivered an allmighty smackdown like he did to Nemiel, the Lion still destroyed Curze. He tore him to pieces. Eleven wounds that could kill an Astartes each, a slit throat, unknown amounts of damage to unidentifiable organs and blood vessels and severe damage to those that were identifiable. From what we can see of the Lion's mentality, his thought process was that Curze was a rabid animal that needed to be put down and put down fast. So unless fast means "taking your time", the fastest way to do achieve the Lion's goal meant, fighting the long fight. Wearing Curze down and inflict several minor-to-as-major-as-possible injuries until they all totaled together and brought Curze to his knees, quite literally.

[Cod]

After having read through the spoilers in this thread and others opinions I'm still a little curious about something.

 

As a DA fan and also a fan of the HH in general, should I buy this book? Would I enjoy it?

The way the Lion is portrayed in the UE sounds intriguing but I hadn't planned on buying it, believing it to be more about UM's and others.

While I understand the Lion and DA's play only a minor part in this book, do people think those snippets contribute to the DA's? At the end of this book are there any clues which way the next stories will go?

 

It does sound like Curze is superbuffed, leaving Rob and the Lion like bumbling fools a bit.

[WGXH]

I see. Thank you for sharing your surmisation, Kol. I'll need to reread Prince of Crows, but somehow I got the impression it took a matter of seconds, not minutes.

[Kol Saresk]

After having read through the spoilers in this thread and others opinions I'm still a little curious about something.

 

As a DA fan and also a fan of the HH in general, should I buy this book? Would I enjoy it?

 

The way the Lion is portrayed in the UE sounds intriguing but I hadn't planned on buying it, believing it to be more about UM's and others.

While I understand the Lion and DA's play only a minor part in this book, do people think those snippets contribute to the DA's? At the end of this book are there any clues which way the next stories will go?

 

 

It does sound like Curze is superbuffed, leaving Rob and the Lion like bumbling fools a bit.

It introduces some interesting tidbits for the Dark Angels, like the presence of "Wings"(apparently the Legion is divided into six forms of speciality) as well as pointing out that due to beginning in complete isolation, the DA also have access to some pre-Crusade tech that the other Legions don't.

 

And Curze is and isn't overpowered. For the first true time, we see him in his element. And it is dramatically different. And as a result, the Lion and Guilliman are pulled out of their elements. So while he is a bit Over The Top, no more say than say, Angron in Betrayer when he catches a Titan's foot, or Russ in A Thousand Sons when he breaks Magnus across his knee. It's a typical "one holds the advantage over the others" situation.

[Augustus]

Could have sworn is was less than a minute.

"He’d seen his primarch duel the Lion twice – first in the dust of a fortress’s foundations on distant Tsagualsa, and again only weeks before, fighting for less than sixty seconds in the rain of a world that held no value at all."

 

emphasis mine

[Haranin]

Because of how he did it. Inflicting that many injuries takes time, even for a Primarch. The fact that several Night Lords go "I saw them fighting", means that it took time, enough time to be witnessed by several characters at different points in the battle. Unless of course, they all happened to look at the exact same time. Even if it didn't take time, the method itself is something that is used only when a swift beheading or a stab through the heart cannot be, or is chosen not to be. We've seen the Lion due swift, deadly strokes before. So we know he could do it. Yet he choose the long game method of fighting. You don't just choose that unless you are a sadist. And the Lion might be many things, but he is not a sadist. So as a result, since we know the Lion deals out single striking blows whenever he can, the fact that he chose not to in this one fight means he did not see it as a possibility. The Lion is a supreme combatant after all. He may not have been seen giving an all-mighty smackdown on Curze, but after one fight, he was able to analyze and counter Curze. Now, while he may not have delivered an allmighty smackdown like he did to Nemiel, the Lion still destroyed Curze. He tore him to pieces. Eleven wounds that could kill an Astartes each, a slit throat, unknown amounts of damage to unidentifiable organs and blood vessels and severe damage to those that were identifiable. From what we can see of the Lion's mentality, his thought process was that Curze was a rabid animal that needed to be put down and put down fast. So unless fast means "taking your time", the fastest way to do achieve the Lion's goal meant, fighting the long fight. Wearing Curze down and inflict several minor-to-as-major-as-possible injuries until they all totaled together and brought Curze to his knees, quite literally.

 

 

Some pretty large assumptions in there. ABD set up the scene as short and intense.... The implication with short time referenced by servator (?) that the fight was very one sided and short.

[Augustus]

Yeah. That is Sevatar"s quote.

[Entei]

Just read through this thread and decided to provide my opinion on Curze's plotarmour and Guilliman's mortality.

 

I think Curze is getting wounded, it's just that Abnett didn't include his POV that much. He's supposed to be the scary monster in the night in this novel, and when you see that a monster can be wounded it's just not that scary anymore(There's a reason you don't have weapons in Amnesia:The Dark Descent). We are supposed to relate to Prayte and Euten and experience the same dread that they do, to some degree.

 

And about Guilliman being too mortal: He is a Primarch, he doesn't know his own healthbar. Just because he thinks he might die from a bolter-shot to the head doesn't mean that he would. Context please. He has just heard stories about his brothers dying and thought he would die by Kor Phaeron's hand. He doesn't know how much damage he can take or what will kill him. He's careful, because he knows that he might be humanity's last hope. At Nuceria on the other hand he was full of hatred, recklessness and passion. He didn't think things through, he simply wanted revenge.

 

And about Vulkan: Fulgrim took a bullet from a sniper rifle in the head from a loooong distance and got hurt badly. Vulkan on the other hand was just a few meters away from Nerek. I'm no gun-expert, but shouldn't it be alot worse taking a bullet to the head that has travelled 10 meters rather than 1000? I do agree that Damon's pistols seemed pretty overpowered though.

[A D-B]

 

I don't want to turn this into a whole thing, but actually Betrayer does two things. It confirms the executioner status. And then it raises the question of whether it was Emperor-ordained, or self-ordained. It neither proves nor disproves one of those two points. The Night of the Wolf served no purpose other than to direct the executioner aspect from possibly having something to do with the Lost Legions to something a bit more practical, such as apparently being the Emperor's voice in telling Angron to stop implanting the Nails, which we know is an old-fluff fact. Although how the sanction was carried out wasn't known until Betrayer. It shifts the focus of the executioner aspect, it does not negate it.
 

 

Uh...

 

As several others have pointed out, Betrayer plainly lends credence to the possibility it might be true - and that the Wolves act as if it is - while also casting doubt on why or how it's true. It in no way confirms it. That's the point. I did a lot to make it look legit, absolutely - lending serious credence to the possibility, while taking a step back from all the 'proof'. It was already far, far, far too "confirmed" in too many books talking about "unleashing the Wolves" and in Prospero Burns itself making it seem like solid fact. It had to reined back, and needed context to end the "They killed the Lost Legions stuff" as well. So we see it happen, and it turns out there's actually doubt about it, after all.

 

Don't mistake lending credence to something while simultaneously introducing doubt, as "confirming" it.

 

 

It appears that A D-B is attempting to make up for Abnett in several instances. Abnett put up the Space Wolves as the "Emperor's Executioners", then A D-B slightly qualifies that by stating that it was not necessarily an official mandate. Abnett claims the Space Wolves were chosen by the Emperor because they are the most ruthless and brutal of the Legions, then A D-B retroactively explains that by having members of the Night Lords and World Eaters Legions explain why "we cannot be trusted". Abnett has Guilliman beaten up by a Space Marine, then A D-B has him stand up to Lorgar and Angron. (And now Abnett is putting Guilliman down a few pegs again).

 

"Make up for" is a strong term. I... um... I'm a big believer in context, and a galaxy that size having a lot of doubt, secrecy, and misunderstandings between its institutions. Something like the Emperor's Executioners started with them, in Prospero Burns, being lauded as "better" and "outfighting" other Space Marines, and heavily hinted that they took down the Lost Legions. Don't get me wrong, that's solid gold in terms of making a fanbase happy, but it had to be countered and put into context, because there's no way that it could be true in-universe (plus, we all know it's not from established lore, and I know from the fact it came up in the HH meetings), and it was starting to skew the setting wildly.

 

Context, context, context. I love it lots.

 

Anyway, back to UR discussion. I've been waiting for this one to come out for ages, I had a feeling it would go down well. One of Dan's main drives was that he wanted Curze to win something, as I always show him losing. He's been quoted as saying a few times that he wanted to do a "superhero" theme in terms of primarchs fighting, and while I think that's a little misrepresentative of the end result, it's cool to see in action. The kind of thing I'd never write, but found an awesome read. The thing I like most about it is how it shows the difference between writing styles with different Heresy authors. Curze's rampage here is way beyond anything my Curze could ever do (if people are holding Angron and Lorgar as the height of primarch power, I'd ask them to look at Curze in UR, or A Thousand Sons, where it's inferred Magnus could delete the entire Space Wolf fleet if he chose to actually bother), but it never felt disingenuous to me, or conflicting. Just different.

 

Really enjoyed UR, obviously. Though my fave Ultramarine moment is yet to come.

[Marshal Rohr]

Damon's pistols were two ancient Eldar super relics. No reason why they couldn't have been supercharged or something.

 

 

The Cabal subplot needs to wrap up though. The worst part about the book is the fact I thought the plot would move a bit more than it did, and set up the next 'movements' of the series but all it did was consolidate.

 

The problem with this is that it means authors who aren't A DB and Dan are going to be writing the substance of the next portion of the HH. So we will be treated to more labyrinth laboratories, weird torture machines, the Lion killing his own men, and lavish OTT portrayals of the traitors.

[Gree]

And about Guilliman being too mortal: He is a Primarch, he doesn't know his own healthbar. Just because he thinks he might die from a bolter-shot to the head doesn't mean that he would. Context please. He has just heard stories about his brothers dying and thought he would die by Kor Phaeron's hand. He doesn't know how much damage he can take or what will kill him. He's careful, because he knows that he might be humanity's last hope. At Nuceria on the other hand he was full of hatred, recklessness and passion. He didn't think things through, he simply wanted revenge.

 

I would say a Primarch as smart as Guilliman would certainly know his limits. This isn't even like Kor Phaeron, wielding unknown powers from the warp. These are from bolter-armed Astartes, against a Primarch who supposedly prides himself on understanding every facet of warfare in a logical, ordered way.

 

You are offering excuses and explanations, and to an extent I can appreciate that. But that's what those are, excuses for what is frankly a rather poor piece of writing. Any other Primarch would have slaughtered those Alphas as a light warmup. After all, we've seen Primarchs handle more in worse situations before.

 

Frankly, I've been more and more unimpressed by Guilliman, twice getting his life spared because his opponent was too focused on gloating to finish off the job properly, or getting intercepted before he can win a fight. This becomes especially glaring when compared to Curze in the same novel, who has a massive killcount and repeatedly takes hits from the physically strongest Primarch.

[Conn Eremon]

Quite frankly, Gree? Kol isn't making excuses. The context of that fight is very clear.

Guilliman was utterly, utterly unprepared. Not just unarmed. His entire mindset was in the wrong place. He was the tired old man, finally getting to relax with an old friend. Doesn't matter that he is a primarch. He was completely vulnerable, in every sense of the word, at that point in time. If Angron was enjoying a meal, blissfully free from the Nails for a moment, when the Titan's boot came down, it would be comparable. If Lorgar has been basking in the worship of his sons, in the midst of oration, his mind entirely on the beauty of the spheres and nothing else, those World Eater librarians might have had an edge.

 

So no, Kol is not making excuses and it is not an example of bad writing. It was a case of Guilliman holding a lost son to his breast, unaware that lost son concealed a dagger meant for that breast.

 

And then, it happened. The cell unleashes hell upon Guilliman, at the moment when he is the absolute least able to defend himself. And do we see Guilliman get torn apart? :cuss no! We see Guilliman become the mother :cuss ing God of Time! He processes so much information so fast that when his initial dive ends it feels like days have passed. And despite the fact that there's enough bolter fire in the room to prevent him from moving anywhere without being struck by them, he takes crippling, lethal shots like a God damn champ and proceeds to massacre the ever-loving :cuss out of those Alpha Legionaries. And when it is all said and done, he's up on his feet and berating his Legion before Lorgar recovered from the plasma attacks.

 

So how the hell is Guilliman being portrayed as weak?

 

[Gree]

Quite frankly, Gree? Kol isn't making excuses. The context of that fight is very clear.

I'm not talking to Kol. I'm talking to Entei. I actually have a policy of ignoring Kol.

Guilliman was utterly, utterly unprepared. Not just unarmed. His entire mindset was in the wrong place. He was the tired old man, finally getting to relax with an old friend. Doesn't matter that he is a primarch. He was completely vulnerable, in every sense of the word, at that point in time. If Angron was enjoying a meal, blissfully free from the Nails for a moment, when the Titan's boot came down, it would be comparable. If Lorgar has been basking in the worship of his sons, in the midst of oration, his mind entirely on the beauty of the spheres and nothing else, those World Eater librarians might have had an edge.

Then we see Guilliman shift to battle mode instantly when the fight starts with practicals and theoretical and all that.

So no, that's not an excuse.

And then, it happened. The cell unleashes hell upon Guilliman, at the moment when he is the absolute least able to defend himself. And do we see Guilliman get torn apart? no! We see Guilliman become the mother ing God of Time! He processes so much information so fast that when his initial dive ends it feels like days have passed. And despite the fact that there's enough bolter fire in the room to prevent him from moving anywhere without being struck by them, he takes crippling, lethal shots like a God damn champ and proceeds to massacre the ever-loving out of those Alpha Legionaries. And when it is all said and done, he's up on his feet and berating his Legion before Lorgar recovered from the plasma attacks.

So how the hell is Guilliman being portrayed as weak?

By being almost killed by a mere ten bolter-armoured Astartes.

Guilliman's performance would be impressive if he was a mere Astartes, or a Custodes. For a Primarch it is pretty low-end compared to the feats of his brothers. Angron had an entire fortress collapse on him before digging his way out and slaughtering the enemy army. Twice. Lorgar survives shots from a Titan. Fulgrim shurgs off a power fist to the face. Corax tanks lascannon shots. All of them casually slaughter scores of Astartes with ease.

Yeah, I consider him performance to be quite unimpressive, especially when Guilliman almost died from those bolter shots and especially when Guilliman only lives because his life is spared a second time because of his enemy's gloating.

[Marshal Rohr]

He recovers from those bolter shots in half an hour. Lorgar had to drag himself off the battlefield. Also we saw the fight from Guillimans perspective. We don't know if Lorgar put up mind shields to lessen the plasma blast to just heat based injuries.

[Marshal Rohr]

Also do we have a list of the Primarchs super powers yet, since everybody seems to be getting one these days?

 

Vulkan has immortality and Wolverine like healing powers.

Kurze can see the future like an overlay of the present.

Sanguinius can see multiple futures.

Mortarion can breath poison.

Corax can become invisible.

Lorgar was telekinetic.

 

 

Any others?

 

It seems like other than Sanguinius Vulkan and Corax the loyalists lack super powers.

 

Also did anyone else find it touching when Guilliman told the Lion he wanted him to be with him on Macragge but the machine couldn't read the Lion?

[Gree]

He recovers from those bolter shots in half an hour. Lorgar had to drag himself off the battlefield. Also we saw the fight from Guillimans perspective. We don't know if Lorgar put up mind shields to lessen the plasma blast to just heat based injuries.

 

Lorgar's performance still comes across as more impressive than Guilliman's. I'll concede that he might be hopped up in Chaos juice when it comes to durability, but he still comes across better than Guilliman.

 

Really, when compared to his brothers, Guilliman really hasn't done anything particularly impressive. The best feat I can think if is doing pretty good against both Angron and Lorgar, but even that was more about Guilliman managing to survive for several minutes than him winning an impressive victory.

[Marshal Rohr]

The loyalists have never really been as badass as the traitors though.