Unremembered Empire....initial review

[Conn Eremon]

Then honestly, Gree? It sounds like you are the one making excuses, to portray Guilliman in a bad light. I read a fight scene where Guilliman straight owned, in ways not repeated by any other primarch in that book, not even Night Haunter. Nobody else started with his disadvantages, from that far off the possibility of surviving, and did it anyways. Curze was at his most advantageous, Vulkan was broken and insane and the Lion was actually prepared when he needed to fight. In all of Unremembered Empire, nobody was more bad :cuss than Guilliman finding a way to survive certain death. I know I'm not being biased or prejudiced. I love every Primarch and Legion. I am not making excuses for Guilliman.

[Gree]

The loyalists have never really been as badass as the traitors though.

 

Sanguinius pwned one of Khorne's strongest bloodthirsters and then proceeded to defeat a Slaaneshi daemon prince. Corax beat up Lorgar and generally is being awesome in his Heresy novels like some super ninja ghost. Vulkan apparently almost killed Curze in Vulkan Lives (I have not read the book) Russ beat Magnus. The Lion badly mauled Curze in their rematch.

 

So no, I really don't hold to the idea that loyalists are less badass than traitors.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah. That is Sevatar"s quote.

Cool. Tell me where I said it took more than a minute. As I recall, I said it took time. 30-59 seconds is time and in a battle situation with beings who react, say even only twice as fast as the average human in the same situation(Astartes, not Primarch), a relatively long time. Am I wrong?

 

A D-B, I stand corrected then. Apologies for misinforming the community.

[Marshal Rohr]

No writer has ever made the loyalists anywhere near as cool as the traitors. We have things they did that were cool, but you don't see the same love from Black Library.

 

A DB is entirely apathetic to writing a HH book giving love to loyalists. Dan doesn't expand them, just writes them.

 

It's why word bearers and night lords cover the wip forum.

[Gree]

Then honestly, Gree? It sounds like you are the one making excuses, to portray Guilliman in a bad light.

Oh, believe me, I would really like to see Guilliman be a badass and do badass things. Unfortunately he has not done so, so I can't take pride in anything he has done. I'd like to, but I cannot honestly say that what the did was especially worthy of a Primarch, or on the level of his brother's accomplishments.

I read a fight scene where Guilliman straight owned, in ways not repeated by any other primarch in that book, not even Night Haunter. Nobody else started with his disadvantages, from that far off the possibility of surviving, and did it anyways. Curze was at his most advantageous, Vulkan was broken and insane and the Lion was actually prepared when he needed to fight. In all of Unremembered Empire, nobody was more bad than Guilliman finding a way to survive certain death. I know I'm not being biased or prejudiced. I love every Primarch and Legion. I am not making excuses for Guilliman.

He narrowly survived an attack by a mere ten Astartes, and only because the leader of the assassins was too busy gloating to finish the job properly. It is then commented that a mere bolter shell to the head would have killed him.

If you want to find that badass, then I guess you are entitled to that view. I honestly cannot see how that would be an impressive feat from a Primarch, after reading Sanguinius, Corax, Angron and Curze.

Frankly, I think people are probably only defending this because Dan Abnett wrote it. If Ben Counter or CS Goto wrote this, you would see alot more people raging.

[Gree]

Apologies for the double post.

 

No writer has ever made the loyalists anywhere near as cool as the traitors. We have things they did that were cool, but you don't see the same love from Black Library.

 

Given I've just listed a whole bunch of examples of loyalist Primarchs doing cool things, I can't say I agree with you there.

 

It's why word bearers and night lords cover the wip forum.

 

Forgive me, but I don't really put much stock in what is frankly an infinitesimally small percentage of the fanbase.

[Marshal Rohr]

That's fine man. The loyalists have always been the military-aristocratic (Dorn Guilliman Lion) champion (Russ Vulkan Khan) savior(Corax Sanguinius)

 

Those don't make for easy origin stories like the traitors.

[Emperor's Furor]

Vulkan died so often because he was already badly wounded from the descent onto Macragge, he never fully healed, he was also nuts and didn't really care what happened to him as long as he could beat down Curze. Him vs Curze though was off putting a single hit from Vulkan and his hammer should of seriously injuried curze, he's meant to be the strongest Primarch and his weapon is probably the most powerful of all Primarch weapons when coupled with it's holder. I liked how he could teleport with the hammer so he ended up nearly as fast as Curze.

[Augustus]

 

Yeah. That is Sevatar"s quote.

Cool. Tell me where I said it took more than a minute. As I recall, I said it took time. 30-59 seconds is time and in a battle situation with beings who react, say even only twice as fast as the average human in the same situation(Astartes, not Primarch), a relatively long time. Am I wrong?

 

A D-B, I stand corrected then. Apologies for misinforming the community.

 

"Prince of Crows. We walk in on the end of the fight. Curze has his throat slit. We only know a few of the specifics, which are that the Lion decided to fight Curze with a thousand cut method. Necessary inference tells us that this kind of method is primarily used against someone who is of such skill that waiting for the opportune moment is nigh on impossible and thus, the killing blow has to be engineered, not taken advantage of. Such as inflicting a least eleven wounds that would have instantly killed an Astartes each, damage to unknown blood vessels and unknown organs as well as dozens of wounds to pretty much every vital area imaginable. The Lion didn't deliver an almighty smackdown to Curze. He had to wear him out with blood and sweat. The final repercussions of that wearing down simply makes it look like an almighty smackdown."

 

Guess we are of differing opinions. To be laid down that bad in under a minute IMO is a smackdown.

Also, by time your "takes time" I generally assumed you meant a while as everything takes time. My apologies there.

[Entei]

@Gree: I see what you mean, I'm just trying to provide some nuance. Sure, it might be bad writing, but it might also be that way because of other reasons. You can belittle my arguments by saying they are excuses, but I'm just trying to say that there are other possibilites than the single one you are advocating. 

 

If I would complain about something else in the novel it's that Curze indeed seemed to be slightly too powerful. And wouldn't the Lion be expecting Curze's traps and tactics? Considering he was hunting him for quite a while. 

 

I don't think this was Abnett's best work, but it certainly was enjoyable.

 

 

On another note... when reading the assassination-scene, was anyone else reminded of this

[Kais Klip]

Just read through this thread and decided to provide my opinion on Curze's plotarmour and Guilliman's mortality.

 

And about Vulkan: Fulgrim took a bullet from a sniper rifle in the head from a loooong distance and got hurt badly. Vulkan on the other hand was just a few meters away from Nerek. I'm no gun-expert, but shouldn't it be alot worse taking a bullet to the head that has travelled 10 meters rather than 1000? I do agree that Damon's pistols seemed pretty overpowered though.

I realised that the instance directly backed up Euten's point; a bolt round is all it takes. Nerek's rifle was large calibre bolt round, while Fulgrim was shot with a needle gun (good authority tells modern .22 calibre rounds have trouble with going through the skull, so perhaps we can draw some parallels).

[A D-B]

No writer has ever made the loyalists anywhere near as cool as the traitors. We have things they did that were cool, but you don't see the same love from Black Library.

 

A DB is entirely apathetic to writing a HH book giving love to loyalists. Dan doesn't expand them, just writes them.

 

It's why word bearers and night lords cover the wip forum.

 

No. No, no, no, dude. I am anything but apathetic about loyalists. 

 

When I joined the HH team, around the time of the release of Legion, the Ultramarines were reserved for Graham until Calth; the Dark Angels already had a book that I'd read and wasn't interested in carrying on with their direction; the Iron Hands had lost their primarch, so if I took a crack at them, I'd be negating my shot at getting to write a primarch at all; the Space Wolves were reserved until Prospero (I went to my first meeting hoping to pitch Prospero, and learned it was already in the pipeline); the Salamanders were unofficially reserved out of pal-ness for Nick; the Blood Angels were reserved by Jim until Signus Prime; the Imperial Fists didn't look like they were doing much at the time and I really wanted to be out there getting involved in the war itself; and the Raven Guard were practically annihilated. I have a lot of love for the White Scars, but this was my first ever (and possibly only) Heresy novel, and I wanted something... y'know. Famous. Meaty. As much as I love them, I didn't want my only possible contribution to Heresy lore to be a Great Crusade novel about the the White Scars.

 

In my first meeting, we talked about the Ultramarines in Imperium Secundus and at Calth, and the Blood Angels at Signus Prime, and the Space Wolves at Prospero. All of it was reserved. That stole my passion for pitching a sub-tier loyalist tale. 

 

I should add, none of the above was out of any malice from the other guys. Stuff was just done differently then, and that was the next few years laid out in plans. If I'd begged, I'm sure one or two of them would've let me have some of that cake (not the Blood Angels though, I tried a thousand times) but I barely knew the guys at that point. When Dan Abnett is sat across from you at a table in your first ever meeting that you're still not sure you should even be at, and he says "I'm writing that", you shut the hell up and wait for an awesome novel. You don't say "Actually, famous guy I've just met, I can do that better than you. I want it."

 

Now, a lot of this has changed in subsequent years, as the series has opened up and Legion's don't get earmarked so comprehensively. But there's still a backlog of reservations and planned storylines that are only now clearing out. 

 

People often assume I prefer Traitors. I don't prefer anyone - there's only one Legion I'm not keen on, and I avoid them completely - but sometimes you write what's left, because what you'd have chosen first of all has someone else's stickers all over it. I think the most commonly uttered words out of my mouth in meetings are: "I want to write about the Blood Angels."

[Marshal Rohr]

It would be nice to get a decent origin story for the loyalists. I say we kidnap A DB Somali pirate style and keep him in a boat with us until he has done 17 more origin stories like the second half if prince of crows. I don't care how formulaic it gets, these are vital parts we are missing.

 

 

Edit:

 

If we crowd source your commission for novella length projects, would BL publish it?

[Emperor's Furor]

You can't really consider Vulkan's part in the story as evidence to how tough a Primarch is, he just fell from orbit and had to re-knit his body from start and he wasn't especially trying to defend himself either.

[Legatus]

How the hell did we go from "the Ultramarines were not really involved in the heresy" to "everyone was on Macragge"??

[Emperor's Furor]

Guess it was a necessary part needed to explain why it took the other legions so long to show up to help.

[Daddywarcrimes]

I get the impression that no one is staying there for long.  Something will happen that allows the Ninth and Fifth to get to Terra before the traitors, and then the Ruinstorm will falter in time for the First and Sixth to storm in to trap the traitors in orbit around Terra.

[Emperor's Furor]

The Blood Angels will use the Pharos to immediately show up, the Space Wolves will limp back and the Dark Angels will use that strange device they have to travel through space normally to heap the pressure on.

[Conn Eremon]

Guilliman himself says to Sanguinius that, if a way reveals itself, he would sacrifice his own Legion to get them there. So it looks like my initial ideas might end up spot on. The Ultramarines can't escape, but they are the reason the others can.

[Gree]

How the hell did we go from "the Ultramarines were not really involved in the heresy" to "everyone was on Macragge"??

 

Retcons basically. I've personally pretty much tossed out all prior fluff now.

 

At least it's confirmed that Guilliman isn't a traitor plotting to become the next Emperor, and at least nobody can complain about the Ultramarines ''not doing anything during the Heresy,''

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

Yeah. That is Sevatar"s quote.

Cool. Tell me where I said it took more than a minute. As I recall, I said it took time. 30-59 seconds is time and in a battle situation with beings who react, say even only twice as fast as the average human in the same situation(Astartes, not Primarch), a relatively long time. Am I wrong?

 

A D-B, I stand corrected then. Apologies for misinforming the community.

"Prince of Crows. We walk in on the end of the fight. Curze has his throat slit. We only know a few of the specifics, which are that the Lion decided to fight Curze with a thousand cut method. Necessary inference tells us that this kind of method is primarily used against someone who is of such skill that waiting for the opportune moment is nigh on impossible and thus, the killing blow has to be engineered, not taken advantage of. Such as inflicting a least eleven wounds that would have instantly killed an Astartes each, damage to unknown blood vessels and unknown organs as well as dozens of wounds to pretty much every vital area imaginable. The Lion didn't deliver an almighty smackdown to Curze. He had to wear him out with blood and sweat. The final repercussions of that wearing down simply makes it look like an almighty smackdown."

 

Guess we are of differing opinions. To be laid down that bad in under a minute IMO is a smackdown.

Also, by time your "takes time" I generally assumed you meant a while as everything takes time. My apologies there.

Yeah, I think I can see where I didn't express my view appropriately and I apologize for that.

 

My reasoning is just that, the normal human takes 1/8 of a second to react, giving him a potential to commit 8 actions every second. Conservatively estimating that an Astartes can react twice as fast as a human, the reaction time increases to 1/16 of a second with the potential for 16 actions a second. Since Primarchs are to an Astartes as Astartes are to a human, that would mean a Primarch's reaction time is 1/32 of a second with the potential for 32 actions a second.

 

So to us, it might look like the Lion walked up to Curze and then Curze was on his knees bleeding from a dozen wounds. In reality, there are a whole twenty-four actions per second that we are missing out on so there was this whole process that was simply missed.

 

Granted, the Lion completely destroyed Curze in that fight. It just wasn't an instantaneous effort, at least not by the reckoning of a Primarch.

[Augustus]

Good point and no worries. I never thought of it like the Lion goes up to Curze and gives him a instant KO. No primarch should ever go down like that. In hindsight I see you were concentrating on HOW the Lion won the fight  "death by 1000 cuts" he did just go up and cut his neck. All very true. 

[Balthamal]

 

 

I don't want to turn this into a whole thing, but actually Betrayer does two things. It confirms the executioner status. And then it raises the question of whether it was Emperor-ordained, or self-ordained. It neither proves nor disproves one of those two points. The Night of the Wolf served no purpose other than to direct the executioner aspect from possibly having something to do with the Lost Legions to something a bit more practical, such as apparently being the Emperor's voice in telling Angron to stop implanting the Nails, which we know is an old-fluff fact. Although how the sanction was carried out wasn't known until Betrayer. It shifts the focus of the executioner aspect, it does not negate it.

 

 

Uh...

 

As several others have pointed out, Betrayer plainly lends credence to the possibility it might be true - and that the Wolves act as if it is - while also casting doubt on why or how it's true. It in no way confirms it. That's the point. I did a lot to make it look legit, absolutely - lending serious credence to the possibility, while taking a step back from all the 'proof'. It was already far, far, far too "confirmed" in too many books talking about "unleashing the Wolves" and in Prospero Burns itself making it seem like solid fact. It had to reined back, and needed context to end the "They killed the Lost Legions stuff" as well. So we see it happen, and it turns out there's actually doubt about it, after all.

 

Don't mistake lending credence to something while simultaneously introducing doubt, as "confirming" it.

 

 

>It appears that A D-B is attempting to make up for Abnett in several instances. Abnett put up the Space Wolves as the "Emperor's Executioners", then A D-B slightly qualifies that by stating that it was not necessarily an official mandate. Abnett claims the Space Wolves were chosen by the Emperor because they are the most ruthless and brutal of the Legions, then A D-B retroactively explains that by having members of the Night Lords and World Eaters Legions explain why "we cannot be trusted". Abnett has Guilliman beaten up by a Space Marine, then A D-B has him stand up to Lorgar and Angron. (And now Abnett is putting Guilliman down a few pegs again).

 

"Make up for" is a strong term. I... um... I'm a big believer in context, and a galaxy that size having a lot of doubt, secrecy, and misunderstandings between its institutions. Something like the Emperor's Executioners started with them, in Prospero Burns, being lauded as "better" and "outfighting" other Space Marines, and heavily hinted that they took down the Lost Legions. Don't get me wrong, that's solid gold in terms of making a fanbase happy, but it had to be countered and put into context, because there's no way that it could be true in-universe (plus, we all know it's not from established lore, and I know from the fact it came up in the HH meetings), and it was starting to skew the setting wildly.

 

Context, context, context. I love it lots.

 

Anyway, back to UR discussion. I've been waiting for this one to come out for ages, I had a feeling it would go down well. One of Dan's main drives was that he wanted Curze to win something, as I always show him losing. He's been quoted as saying a few times that he wanted to do a "superhero" theme in terms of primarchs fighting, and while I think that's a little misrepresentative of the end result, it's cool to see in action. The kind of thing I'd never write, but found an awesome read. The thing I like most about it is how it shows the difference between writing styles with different Heresy authors. Curze's rampage here is way beyond anything my Curze could ever do (if people are holding Angron and Lorgar as the height of primarch power, I'd ask them to look at Curze in UR, or A Thousand Sons, where it's inferred Magnus could delete the entire Space Wolf fleet if he chose to actually bother), but it never felt disingenuous to me, or conflicting. Just different.

 

Really enjoyed UR, obviously. Though my fave Ultramarine moment is yet to come.

 

 

I despise you sir for such a a tantalizing glimpse of what the future may hold and snatching it away again. Almost like....magic.

 

 

Back on track. I think it's good to see ALL the Primarchs get their chance to shine (apart from Ferrus since, well, he kinda died before doing anything). We've always been shown the wretched shadow of Cruze before, this is the first time he's ever been shown to be himself, in his element, doing what he wants

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Wait, during this book Cruze, Sanguinius, Vulkan, Lorgrar, and Guilliman are all on one planet at the same time!?!?

Some explanations, please people!

 

WLK

[Marshal Rohr]

Not lorgar