[HH1.0] Night Lords Tactics

[Lord Asvaldir]

Ya that's my problem with the +d3 attacks, it's random. Too many times I've sadly ended up with just one extra attack, plus ten with chainglaives is quite expensive. 

 

I'm not saying it's bad, with curze and maybe a chaplain that's a lot of pain, I'd just prefer chainglaives on a unit that's 2 attacks base. 

[Terminus]

Sadly, Curze has a stupid version of hit and run that only works on turns he charges.  Even if you aren't getting those extra attacks, a squad of Raptors is still probably safer staying engaged until the end of the enemy's close combat phase, rather than scooting out of combat right before the opponent gets a full turn of shooting and charging them.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea, it grants him hit and run when he charges, but it never says that it gets lost afterwards. So basically if your opponent gets the drop on you, you won't be able to H&R out, but after your first charge you get it.

[Aeternus]

You know our special character? The ophion guy. does anyone see any reason why the reduction to WS would not work on, say, an enemy primarch? cos if it does, and it happens, that'll just be damn funny when you attack back, especially if you outnumber now as well.

[Terminus]

Yea, it grants him hit and run when he charges, but it never says that it gets lost afterwards. So basically if your opponent gets the drop on you, you won't be able to H&R out, but after your first charge you get it.

So you're saying you keep getting Hammer of Wrath in subsequent turns too?  The rule says he gets both of them whenever he charges, but there's always the chance of a FW derp moment. I mean, I'd be totally cool with playing against a H&R Curze, because come on, he's the Batman and Joker's illegitimate love-child, he should be scary. Is someone keeping track of all the FW derp anywhere?  Maybe we should have a stickied thread of "stuff FW wrote we generally ignore".

Edited February 25, 2016 by Terminus

[Hesh Kadesh]

Aside from Ophion already being dead, you mean?

 

Edit; Skimask, what you're saying is there is "it doesn't say I can't", which is when my Space Marines start shooting Strength D ignores Cover Assault 32 Eye Lasers.

 

The Nightmare Mantle clearly proscribes the conditions for when he gains Hit & Run and Hammer of Wrath (which replaces his bonus attack for charging, don't forget, yay FW! You go rule writers, you're awesome wooo!) when he charges. If he doesn't charge, he doesn't get Hit & Run or Hammer of Wrath.

 

And even if he did have Hammer of Wrath at all times, it only triggers on a charge move anyway. "If a model with this special rule ends its charge move in base contact or hull contact with one or more enemy models..."

Edited February 25, 2016 by Hesh Kadesh

[Balthamal]

To me Chainglaives on raptors are a waste when the points can be going on extra bodies. With the buff to Talent for Murder now, Raptors can be devastating. Think of the 3 bonus attacks on the charge. 10 man squad getting 50 attacks and unless you run into a unit of 10 bulky models you'll be getting the bonus +1 to hit and wound

[SkimaskMohawk]

I agree HoW still only applies on the charge, but there's no mechanical trigger to switch off hit and run once it's granted

[Terminus]

I agree HoW still only applies on the charge, but there's no mechanical trigger to switch off hit and run once it's granted

So basically, if you manage to charge Curze, he won't have hit and run?  Or can he just declare a failed charge on the first turn to activate it for the rest of the game?  Seems like it would have been simpler just to word it as him having hit and run. :P

[Aeternus]

Aside from Ophion already being dead, you mean?

 

Edit; Skimask, what you're saying is there is "it doesn't say I can't", which is when my Space Marines start shooting Strength D ignores Cover Assault 32 Eye Lasers.

 

The Nightmare Mantle clearly proscribes the conditions for when he gains Hit & Run and Hammer of Wrath (which replaces his bonus attack for charging, don't forget, yay FW! You go rule writers, you're awesome wooo!) when he charges. If he doesn't charge, he doesn't get Hit & Run or Hammer of Wrath.

 

And even if he did have Hammer of Wrath at all times, it only triggers on a charge move anyway. "If a model with this special rule ends its charge move in base contact or hull contact with one or more enemy models..."

LoS and a fair set of cc defenses he has would work against a couple of the primarchs. However I know your feelings on him, so I'll leave that be. Hadn't read the 'targeted by Ophion's attacks' part, so that answers my questions.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@Terminus Yea if he gets charged before ever charging then he wouldn't have H&R, I'd have to look at the wording of charging to see if failed charges qualify for the activation. I agree that him having the rule normally would be better and I think that's what they meant, but just failed in their grammar

[Caillum]

I emailed them about the wording being confusing. Asked if he should simply have Hit & Run, not only when he charges. Also asked about having D3 Hammer of Wrath, instead of the extra attack (the extra attack for charging, or the 1 Hammer of Wrath for being Jump Infantry?).

 

They gave me a non-response about it being put to the team for the next FAQ. This was ages ago, so a bit annoyed about it not being addressed in the latest FAQ.

 

For the record, I think he simply has the "Hit & Run" rule, he inflicts D3 Hammer of Wrath when charging instead of 1, and still gets an extra attack in Assault when charging. Language be damned.

[Count Douclar]

On the subject of raptors, would it be better to run raptors as better assault marines due to the changes to talent for murder?

 

They get +1 WS and +d3 attacks on the charge, which out as Balthamal points out can give a metric f tone of attacks (potential of 60 attacks on the charge with hammer of wrath). For 10 base, they cost the same as assault marines, maybe take special weapons (probably take melta to allows for greater threat range) and claws on the Sargent to make them even more threatening.

 

Anything will die to loads of attacks. And learning from my experience with dark eldar, it's better to kill an opponents unit during the end of their combat phase.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I often take raptors, just because I think they are a fun unit, the changes to talent for murder just makes them better like most of our units. I usually don't load up too much on power weapons since you have to expect a fair amount of the unit to die before they reach combat, having all fifteen surviving to an assault is highly unlikely. I usually take 3 chainglaives and 2 power axes, glaive and aa on the sarg and that's it. Melta gun wouldn't be bad though for stripping some HPs off transports. 

[Balthamal]

The buff to talent for murder makes raptors a massive upgrade on assault marines. Mainly hitting on 3s/2s and wounding on 3s is awesome. Especially if you get nice rolls with onslaught then you're taking a whole heap of pain

[Balthamal]

OK so I've used Sevatar twice this past week, once as part of a Terror Assault list (as the warlord) and again in a Primarch's Chosen. Both times he's been the combat monster we've come to expect however his utility in the army as a whole is lacking somewhat. Granted with the TA list he allowed my flankers to have a greater degree of flexibility but that was more or less it. In the PC list he was very useful to have as a magnet for a terminator blob to drop on top of but struggled a bit after that seeing as he couldn't make it to assault (pesky tau and their stupid jet pack move)

 

How's everyone else found him effective? Outside of in a pod with a Terror Squad as is standard I mean

[Lord Asvaldir]

I like running sevetar in a spartan with an appropriate escort of some good assault unit, often terminators but sometimes veterans. Throw him right into combat where he belongs. I'm just not as big a fan of throwing him in a terror squad as they just won't last long against units like terminators, and I want sevetar right in the middle of the biggest, nastiest fight on the board where he belongs. Yes if he is with terminators then you don't gain the benefit of deep strike, but I rarely want to deep strike a big blob of terminators anyway. I find his deep strike ability far more useful for smaller units of combi plas terminators. 

 

My biggest issue with sevetar is his lack of ap2, too often I've had him lose a challenge because he can't get a lucky rend and get through artificer/terminator armor. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

You can't put sevetar with a terror squad, unless you join them at a later point in the game

[Balthamal]

Erm why? If they're infiltrating then no, rest of the time it's fair game

[Hesh Kadesh]

You have no choice over whether you infiltrate or not and the 7th ed FAQ explicitly kiboshing non Infiltrators joining Infiltrators.

[Sentinel Guy]

Really?

 

Just stick them in a dreadclaw.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Still can't attach, though. Edited March 4, 2016 by Hesh Kadesh

[Lord Asvaldir]

I don't see why you can't throw sevetar in a terror squad with a dreadclaw. It's not like the unit itself has deep strike, he's just joining them in reserves. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

How it works is that during your deployment you choose whether units are deployed on the board or are kept in reserve. HQ units may be deployed in coherency with units on the board and are then joined to the squads, deployed on their own/kept in reserve solo, or kept in reserve while attached to a squad. You can't join a unit that has Infiltrate on the board due to how deploying and the Infiltrate mechanics interact. GW recently came out with an update to their FAQ that includes the following:

 

 

An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot not join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment and vice versa

 

Because deployment encompasses both table-top placement and allocating reserves this means ICs can never join units with the Infiltrate special rule during deployment, even if they are in reserve

[Lord Asvaldir]

That seems kinda silly to me, it makes sense that an IC without infiltrate cannot join a unit that is infiltrating, but if they are in reserve I should be able to put him with the unit. 

 

O well, in that case sevetar is stuck with joining terminator or veteran units.