[HH1.0] Night Lords Tactics

[Terminus]

Weird, Hesh's post about sworn brothers in transports got deleted? I don't mind that rule (although it's a lot less abusable in 30K). Between it and USR sharing is what killed 40k for me.

 

For Agents like Navigators or Errants, I wouldn't mind making an exception, although I might argue in exchange that you can't bring an Errant apothecary, because I don't think even sworn brothers would be okay with some stranger sent by Malcadork jacking their progenoids.

 

The infiltrate thing is super dumb. In 30K people will probably let you do it, or you can take a command or veteran squad to go with him. Give them boarding shields and they are basically Tartaros termies in melee.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Terminus

[Flint13]

^That is a good point on the Errants...

 

I can't see some of the more insular legions even letting an outsider near the medicae facilities, much less let them doodle around in legion gene-seed. 

[Charlo]

^That is a good point on the Errants...

 

I can't see some of the more insular legions even letting an outsider near the medicae facilities, much less let them doodle around in legion gene-seed. 

 

Hi! Yeah... I USED to be a world eater.... But I'm a Knight Errant now! From Malcador!

 

...What do you mean I can't heal my Blood Angel brothers in battle?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Not sure a viable tactic is relying on your opponent to let you change how rules work because you don't like them 

[Terminus]

It's give and take. Fine, lets play by the book. Enjoy your lonely stroll, Mr. Errant.

[cowboy3569]

How it works is that during your deployment you choose whether units are deployed on the board or are kept in reserve. HQ units may be deployed in coherency with units on the board and are then joined to the squads, deployed on their own/kept in reserve solo, or kept in reserve while attached to a squad. You can't join a unit that has Infiltrate on the board due to how deploying and the Infiltrate mechanics interact. GW recently came out with an update to their FAQ that includes the following:

 

 

 

An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot not join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment and vice versa

 

 

Because deployment encompasses both table-top placement and allocating reserves this means ICs can never join units with the Infiltrate special rule during deployment, even if they are in reserve

I think that the Problem is that wording is open to interpretation, my take on that rule is that infiltrators refers to a group of models conducting an infiltrate action. If it was meant to be models with the infiltrate rule then it would/should have been worded in that way. But I can see Skimaskmohawks' interpretation as well so I guess until they FAQ the FAQ it's down to player or group consensus.

[Balthamal]

^^ This

[Terminus]

I also always play it as "you're only count as Infiltrator if you're actually infiltrating".

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

How it works is that during your deployment you choose whether units are deployed on the board or are kept in reserve. HQ units may be deployed in coherency with units on the board and are then joined to the squads, deployed on their own/kept in reserve solo, or kept in reserve while attached to a squad. You can't join a unit that has Infiltrate on the board due to how deploying and the Infiltrate mechanics interact. GW recently came out with an update to their FAQ that includes the following:

 

 

An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot not join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment and vice versa

 

Because deployment encompasses both table-top placement and allocating reserves this means ICs can never join units with the Infiltrate special rule during deployment, even if they are in reserve

I think that the Problem is that wording is open to interpretation, my take on that rule is that infiltrators refers to a group of models conducting an infiltrate action. If it was meant to be models with the infiltrate rule then it would/should have been worded in that way. But I can see Skimaskmohawks' interpretation as well so I guess until they FAQ the FAQ it's down to player or group consensus.

 

 

There is a problem in that Infiltrators is a not defined by the rulebook. That being said, if you look at the Infiltrate rule, they refer to a unit with Infiltrate as "Infiltrators" including up to this sentence:

 

"Having Infiltrate also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept as Reserves" 

 

Because of this sentence its pretty obvious that "Infiltrators" is used to refer to any unit with the Infiltrate special rule and not specifically units that are being deployed via Infiltrate. 

 

Its interesting to note that the current version of the FAQ was updated to have the current wording, before you could join an IC with Infiltrate to units without in Reserves. I think its an indication that GW doesn't want any mixing between units with and without Infiltrate

 

I also always play it as "you're only count as Infiltrator if you're actually infiltrating".

 

Which is always; you can't choose not to Infiltrate in 7th edition, you still count as being Infiltrators when being put in Reserves, which gives access to Outflank.

[Terminus]

We play if you choose not to use Infiltrate rules, they aren't in effect. So you can put a character with infiltrate into a pod with a unit without, or vice versa.

[Sabadin]

We play if you choose not to use Infiltrate rules, they aren't in effect.

No dice, in 7th all units with infiltrate deploy after normal units, regardless of if you're infiltrating or not. Which means your IC is already deployed and can't attach. It sucks, but rules are rules. That works for your group as a house rule, but for the purposes of this topic can't be taken into consideration.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Sabadin

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think he realizes he's changing the rule at this point.

 

That being said, its getting a bit tiring see people say they'll just change rules they don't like in Tactica threads. If no one is playing the same rules theres no common ground

[Terminus]

 

We play if you choose not to use Infiltrate rules, they aren't in effect.

No dice, in 7th all units with infiltrate deploy after normal units, regardless of if you're infiltrating or not. Which means your IC is already deployed and can't attach. It sucks, but rules are rules. That works for your group as a house rule, but for the purposes of this topic can't be taken into consideration.

Of course, that really doesn't even need to be said.  If you go back before we got into this infinite loop of "but it's against the rules" "we know, but we consider it dumb and ignore it" "but it's against the rules" "uh yes, and if mandated we'll play it like that, but otherwise we ignore it" "but it's against the rules" ad nauseam, I recommended a Command Squad or Veteran Squad as completely by the book and probably more effective Dreadclaw ride-mates for Sevatar rather than the "illegal" Terror Squad.  And then note that this really got started by the whole Agents being sworn brothers but having to jog behind the cab rules/fluff incongruity.

 

I am not sure why people are being so obtuse?  "Can't be taken in consideration"?  "No common ground"? This what makes 30K better than 40K.  Both have some terrible rules editing and writing, if we're completely honest, and many 30K groups, particularly those that focus on the book campaigns, missions and narratives, are prone to making alterations to the rules when they don't make sense.  By my count there are three metas represented on this page alone that follow similar house-rules.  As long as it's clearly stated as such, this doesn't subtract from the discussion to theorize about a transported unit that includes an Errant or Navigator.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Terminus stop being spot on, all my liked keep getting taken up :D.

 

So stepping away from the whole debate on who can ride with what, here's my main question: is sevater worth it in a TA list over a regular praetor?

[Balthamal]

IMO only if you're taking Terminators as well. Yes Sev is amazing in combat as you'd expect but you can get only marginally less effective CC mash for cheaper not to mention a 2+ save

[Count Douclar]

If Sev is good in a TA list if you take termies, would he be better in a PoL list? As you can take terminators for days. I can see him in a spartan/dreadclaw with veterans and have termies deep strike around him. Probably take a reserve manipulating unit and support elements (distraction carnifexes) so he doesn't get Insta gibbed by your opponent shooting everything at him.

[Lord Abaia]

My ideal change I'd like to see for Sevatar is making the teleporter homer just a piece of wargear and making Master of the Atramentar a rule that allows him to take a terminator armored command squad. Sev with 4 termies in a land raider would make a fun, fluffy unit for any list, and it would allow you to take a LR in a TA list without killing your one HS slot. The homer is basically just a crappier version of a nuncio-vox anyway.

[Balthamal]

Tbf you can run 3 land raiders in TA if you're prepared to drop the points into them but I get what you're saying.

[Terminus]

Note I don't play Night Lords (don't get the fluff appeal!) but we have quite a few of you skinning fetishists around here, so I've beaten down and been beaten down by Sevatar on a number of occasions.

 

Sevatar has some weird equipment issues compared to the typical combat Praetor.  Only having power armor really sucks, so does the fact that he's only AP3 unless he rolls a rend.  Precognition certainly helps, but it does mean he's squishier than the typical Praetor and is really counting on sneaking in that instant death attack in challenges.  It's not far outside the ream of probability that he fails to get a rend to push through a Sgt's artificer armor, and then gets gibbed by a power fist.  If the opponent has Eternal Warrior, forget about it.

 

Then there is the fact that he basically has no warlord trait. At first they give him Master of Ambush, which is an excellent trait. But then they go to clarify that by Master of Ambush, they mean Not Master of Ambush, but rather some crap about outflanking acute senses.  I was hoping the book would clarify that he has the Strategic trait plus grants the acute senses boost, but no such luck. So effectively your warlord perk is his Master of the Atramentar ability that stops scatter around him.  Even then you run into a few problems.  Since the dreadclaw doesn't have inertial compensators, you usually land a bit farther and then flat out to a better position, and then next turn move again towards your assault target.  And since the pin-point teleports will happen before that second move, you may not be in an optimal position yet and your guys will land outside of that <12" sweet-spot for your special weapons.  On the other hand, the dreadclaw is a lot bigger than Sevatar, so that 6" bubble can go a long way.

 

Of course, you could do something similar (or better) with a Delegatus and Damocles rhino, so there's that...

Edited March 8, 2016 by Terminus

[Count Douclar]

Tbh, I prefer to make my own praetor rather then take sev (I love the model tho), as I can make the praetor more survivable, just as killy and give him the ability to be bulky (and move faster), which can help with outnumbering.

 

On the note with master of the atramentar. As terminus said, the domecles rhino can do Sevs job, it also gives a bigger bubble and rerolls to reserves. And Some units can also take a nuxio vox.

 

I love sev and his fluff, but some of his rules are just terrible. I see special characters as something that can buff the army or something that is deadlier then their vanilla counterpart. Unfortunately, sev's buff is readily available to other units and while he can potentially be more killy, he isn't as survivable (and I'm pretty sure if sev goes against other "dualing" characters, he'd probably fall short).

[Lord Abaia]

Yeah. I'm considering picking up the Sevatar model and swapping out his back pack for a jump pack. I'd run him as a jump Praetor in AA with a paragon blade. The fluff in the book even mentions the existence of chain-bladed paragon blades, and his chainglaive looks cool enough to justify it IMO.

[SkimaskMohawk]

sevetar is conditionally more survivable than a vanilla counterpart. With precognition he's a nuisance, if there's an apothecary in the unit he's a headache.

[Count Douclar]

But that's if you get precog off. Then again I've never played with psychers, so I don't know how hard it is to pull of on 2 dice.

[Balthamal]

Harder than you think, especially if either: you roll high on warp charges so your opponent can throw loads of dice at it or he's got a few psykers of his won to buff have a shot with. That's discounting :cuss rolling

[helterskelter]

Basically your not going to pull it off vs word bearers or tsons :p