[HH1.0] Night Lords Tactics

[Aeternus]

Legion termies only have 1 wound a piece. But yeah Sevatar really needs a land raider to get from here to there. I REALLY wish he had artificer armour (or the option for termie armour, he is the master of the atrementar after all).

 

Here's a tactic I learned over the weekend. Don't be so oblivious on the battlefield as to allow Sevatar to end up in combat with a unit of Ultramarine Invictus Suzerain. Good god that unit is ridiculous

Yeah it's a good thing Ultramarine legion rules don't tailor to close combat. But my suzies almost always buckle when faced with a hard unit like cataphractii termies.

 

They also really dislike plasma, as they only get a 6++ against it. I've had many an expensive unit blown of the map in one turn of solid plasma shooting. So definitely consider plasma cataphractii termies when facing Ultramarines again.

By Legion termies I mean Firedrakes/butchers/(phoenix guard?) who are all 2 wounds a piece, and hit back with at least ap3.

 

It's far from a guarantee to cast precog though. My buddie who plays him rarely gets use of it as D6+1 warp charges just isn't consistent enough

Not to mention it isn't even D6+1 ;) Irritatingly, I think he can only use a max of 2 dice. I've found it casts as much as it doesn't. 

 

On one hand I hate the 3+ save. But I can see a 2+ rerollable would be a bit too much, even if it was only 75% of the time (mathematically). I am hoping however when the Thramas book comes out he gets some help. Option for terminator armour, or an ap2 weapon. But this is into wishlisting territory.

[Flint13]

^He seems like FW built Sev assuming that he would have pre-cog running.

 

He isn't *bad* but it's so hard to get work done when you aren't getting those re-rolls.

[Black_out]

I think my next attempt to use him will involve a spartan or land raider and some terminators, though I hate mixed armor units.

 

Command squad maybe?

[Aeternus]

I think my next attempt to use him will involve a spartan or land raider and some terminators, though I hate mixed armor units.

 

Command squad maybe?

I typically run him with a command squad just so he has some 2+ dudes to LoS for him, that aren't in TDA. Works reasonably well but they don't help as much compared to a TEQ bodyguard. Tartaros might be as good/better though? 

Edited August 17, 2016 by Aeternas

[Flint13]

I think my next attempt to use him will involve a spartan or land raider and some terminators, though I hate mixed armor units.

 

Command squad maybe?

Oh, command squad with Charnabal sabers. Not quite as great as a bunch of chainglaives, but still pretty awesome. 

 

I've been getting hella use out of a similar unit in my World Eaters. 

[Perry]

I would put him and unit of choice in a Dreadclaw, turn 2 charges anywhere on the board is great

[Black_out]

 

I think my next attempt to use him will involve a spartan or land raider and some terminators, though I hate mixed armor units.

Command squad maybe?

 

Oh, command squad with Charnabal sabers. Not quite as great as a bunch of chainglaives, but still pretty awesome. 

 

I've been getting hella use out of a similar unit in my World Eaters.

 

Hmmm....what sort of transport usually?

 

  

I would put him and unit of choice in a Dreadclaw, turn 2 charges anywhere on the board is great

Y'know I've never actually used a dreadclaw before. The question then would be what unit to attach him to

[Balthamal]

Command Squad would be my shout. Just to be able to sweep if nothing else and you can tuck an apothecary in there.

 

I've brought up Sevatar when speaking to FW before, it's not that he's a terrible choice, it's more that he's a niche option in a Legion that has a different niche of units to take advantage of it's LA rule. He's good in a PotL list running with veterans so the terminators can land on top of him. The problem with his precog is that it fits with his character - he isn't in full control of his powers. Maybe if his story is moved along by the time there's an update to the Night Lords (It won't be Thramas - Thramas isn't getting a book) he might have changed sufficiently by then to merit an upgrade.

 

I agree a 2+ re-roll is a bit much but given the proliferation of ap2 weaponry in 30K games I don't see it as something drastically overpowered. And that's not accounting for all the rending options either.

 

The glaive I think should either be AP2 base as per the weaponry of other First Captains or should be rending on a greater frequency.

 

I think his Master of the Atramentar rule could be improved though. Either by allowing terms to do something after they land or by having them not scatter board wide. As it is there's not much benefit from it - Sev still has to be kept alive and put in position and then you're waiting another turn after that for the terms to land and a turn again to assault. And that's not accounting for any reserve manipulation

[Black_out]

All excellent points. I just try and include him because he has one of the best non-primarch statlines in the game but his lack of ap2 is frustrating and he's really difficult to decide how to use.

 

His warlord traithe is nice if you use terror assault and decide to outflank but that really limits most of your army to reserves while the rest sits there to take a pounding. Although maybe infiltrate is your friend in this case with cover of darkness.

 

Ugh

[Balthamal]

I find his warlord trait garbage in all honesty. There's barely a unit that can outflank on it's own - they either have scout or infiltrate which have much more utility. In a TA list it's a no brainer because the 3 turns of Night Fighting make an absolutely incredible difference. Were he to get 2/3 of the above he'd be an outstanding character. You think what Dynat offers for 200 points - you'd definitely pay 200 for Sevatar providing that

[Charlo]

FW did say they were doing the Atrementar Terminators as a unit eventually. He'll probably get an update to go along with them.

 

Has he ever worn TDA in the fluff? Maybe he'll get the option or something.

[Black_out]

I find his warlord trait garbage in all honesty. There's barely a unit that can outflank on it's own - they either have scout or infiltrate which have much more utility. In a TA list it's a no brainer because the 3 turns of Night Fighting make an absolutely incredible difference. Were he to get 2/3 of the above he'd be an outstanding character. You think what Dynat offers for 200 points - you'd definitely pay 200 for Sevatar providing that

He just really isn't much of a force multiplier. Considering it's hard to even find a unit to place him in

FW did say they were doing the Atrementar Terminators as a unit eventually. He'll probably get an update to go along with them.

 

Has he ever worn TDA in the fluff? Maybe he'll get the option or something.

I've heard mention of this before but never saw anything concrete. Links? Hopefully to something more recent lol

[Charlo]

Then again if he has Artificer and an Iron Halo why take Cataphracti really. He can sweep then.

[Balthamal]

To my mind there's never been a depiction of him with Terminator Armour on. It wouldn't really fit his character anyway - ADB's depiction of his fighting is very much more on the speed/agility wavelength than outright power - which also ties in with the effect of his psychic ability. 

 

Tbh I don't mind him not being a force multiplier - but as a First Captain if he isn't buffing his army he had better be one hell of a fighter ala Sigismund/Khan

[Black_out]

To my mind there's never been a depiction of him with Terminator Armour on. It wouldn't really fit his character anyway - ADB's depiction of his fighting is very much more on the speed/agility wavelength than outright power - which also ties in with the effect of his psychic ability. 

 

Tbh I don't mind him not being a force multiplier - but as a First Captain if he isn't buffing his army he had better be one hell of a fighter ala Sigismund/Khan

We'll his stats are certainly there and with precog re-rolling everything is great too plus I6 is fast. In a challenge he's even better unless he's facing EW but unless he rends there's no ap2 and it really detracts from his usefulness

[Balthamal]

I

 

 

To my mind there's never been a depiction of him with Terminator Armour on. It wouldn't really fit his character anyway - ADB's depiction of his fighting is very much more on the speed/agility wavelength than outright power - which also ties in with the effect of his psychic ability. 
 
Tbh I don't mind him not being a force multiplier - but as a First Captain if he isn't buffing his army he had better be one hell of a fighter ala Sigismund/Khan

We'll his stats are certainly there and with precog re-rolling everything is great too plus I6 is fast. In a challenge he's even better unless he's facing EW but unless he rends there's no ap2 and it really detracts from his usefulness

 

 

The problem I feel, is that his overall effectiveness is too dependent on pre-cog. I've got no problems with him having a slightly worse chance of getting it off given that's part of who he is. I just think he's too toned down compared to others. I'm happy for Sigismund to be as good as he is (and he's the best non-Primarch, at least until we see Valdor's rules) but when Khârn can take Gorechild, Abaddon has his special armour and Typhon offers a bit of both it seems almost that Sev is lacking. He's supposed to be one of the very best across the Legions. There's dozens/hundreds of warriors who could chew through the rank and file. He's supposed to be handy against the big hitters too. I might actually play test the amendments above and see how that affects him both on their own and in conjunction with others

[SkimaskMohawk]

I like how everyone is complaining that he needs to be the most optimal slayer of people ever because he's a first captain. Abbadon is pretty junk for a first captain of the best legion ; all the recent buffs to the SoH only makes him right for his deepstrike ability. If they gave him ap 2 he'd just be a blue version of sigi, but with one of the highest initiative in the game to make sure no character or multi wound model would ever go near him. As it is right now, he's a the only character that at initiative 6 (sometimes 7) can get 5 attacks that hit and wound on 2s with rerolls to everything, as well as supporting deepstrike and outflank gameplay. For 175. Ap 2 would be absolutely broken, as would a 2+ since it doubles his survivability and would just turn him into someone you soak wounds with from shooting

[helterskelter]

He doesn't always get the rerolls though.

The problem herein I think is the fluff has built him up to be better than his tabletop representation.

He could keep duelling with sigi and in tabletop terms sigi can actually have a go at a primarch, heck autek Mor could slap sev about a good Un and he's just labelled an undesirable bastard.

He's not really any better than a suitably tooled praetor except for his warlord trait. Doesn't get enough dice to guarantee his power will even work.

[Balthamal]

I like how everyone is complaining that he needs to be the most optimal slayer of people ever because he's a first captain. Abbadon is pretty junk for a first captain of the best legion ; all the recent buffs to the SoH only makes him right for his deepstrike ability. If they gave him ap 2 he'd just be a blue version of sigi, but with one of the highest initiative in the game to make sure no character or multi wound model would ever go near him. As it is right now, he's a the only character that at initiative 6 (sometimes 7) can get 5 attacks that hit and wound on 2s with rerolls to everything, as well as supporting deepstrike and outflank gameplay. For 175. Ap 2 would be absolutely broken, as would a 2+ since it doubles his survivability and would just turn him into someone you soak wounds with from shooting

 

That's the crux of the matter - as he is, he's overpriced at 175pts and a great deal of his effectiveness is dependent on an unreliable mechanic. I agree on the AP2 front especially at I6 (or I7 if Terror Assault is still a thing) it would be broken. Rends on 5/6s isn't that much of a dramatic increase and believe me I've used him enough to see just how often he does manage to rend which isn't a lot. 

 

And again - saying he hits and wounds on 2+ - not a given. Yes it requires some decent play to make sure he does outnumber and of course that's player skill that should be rewarded. But who's he running to outnumber with? Assuming he goes in a dreadclaw to be on the board first turn - he can't join Terror Squads. Terminator Squads are a waste because you want them dropping in on him, you're paying too much of a points tax for assault marines/raptors so that's command squads or veterans. So 5 in a command squad - the enemy will need thinning out dramatically (assuming it's a 10 man squad of course although elites like Suzerains are an exception) or 10 veterans assuming they take no casualties on the turn out in the open they have to survive seeing as they have to get out as Sevatar's teleport homer is only usable if he's on the board at the beginning of the turn and in sufficient space to allow the terminators to land.

 

Against regular marines he'll blow through them like they're not there - that's not even a consideration it's a given. Against Suzerains? Justaerin/Deathshroud? He'll bounce off them. And all without getting the bonus for outnumbering. Cataphractii are a reasonable road block because of the 4++ they boast but Suzerains? Realistically you're looking at 1 dead per combat round when there should be at least 3. 

 

Outflank is overrated - the units that are primed to take advantage of it have scout or infiltrate - meaning if you do go down that road a good chunk of your army is off the board. The optimal way to get Sev in would be a dreadclaw but that would in reserve. The Terminators you'd deep strike on him would be in reserve. You'd have three units in reserve to benefit from outflank and if an opponent sees that coming they can deploy in a manner to prevent it being effective. If the Terminators are guaranteed to arrive by a certain turn or can do something more meaningful other than stand out in the open for a turn after landing then yeah that would be a decent benefit. Who knows they might give that kind of thing to Atramentar when they get around to doing them.

 

It's not that Sevatar is a bad choice. He can be very good when used well, I know, I've made it happen and been on the receiving end too. It's just as a character he's caught in a half and half scenario. He offers utility for units with DS/Outflank but that's limited. He has the statline of a A grade fighter and yet his equipment is sub par in comparison to elsewhere and his one "advantage" has less than a 50% success rate. Hence looking at what could improve him in either one facet or the other because right now he's neither of each. And as for Abaddon? Of course he could be improved. Dramatically. But at least he gets to swing his power fist if he wants to throw a tantrum.

[Black_out]

If his dirty fighter special rule caused rends on 5/6 I don't think I'd have any gripes tbf

[SkimaskMohawk]

He doesn't always get the rerolls though.

The problem herein I think is the fluff has built him up to be better than his tabletop representation.

He could keep duelling with sigi and in tabletop terms sigi can actually have a go at a primarch, heck autek Mor could slap sev about a good Un and he's just labelled an undesirable bastard.

He's not really any better than a suitably tooled praetor except for his warlord trait. Doesn't get enough dice to guarantee his power will even work.

 

On average if your opponent has no psychers then the power goes off; a 4+ on two dice is usually going to off statistically, while your opponent needs 6 dice (on average) to stop a success with just 1 warp charge. So yes, it isn't a guarantee, but usually it should cast, hence the balancing around it

 

 

I like how everyone is complaining that he needs to be the most optimal slayer of people ever because he's a first captain. Abbadon is pretty junk for a first captain of the best legion ; all the recent buffs to the SoH only makes him right for his deepstrike ability. If they gave him ap 2 he'd just be a blue version of sigi, but with one of the highest initiative in the game to make sure no character or multi wound model would ever go near him. As it is right now, he's a the only character that at initiative 6 (sometimes 7) can get 5 attacks that hit and wound on 2s with rerolls to everything, as well as supporting deepstrike and outflank gameplay. For 175. Ap 2 would be absolutely broken, as would a 2+ since it doubles his survivability and would just turn him into someone you soak wounds with from shooting

 

That's the crux of the matter - as he is, he's overpriced at 175pts and a great deal of his effectiveness is dependent on an unreliable mechanic. I agree on the AP2 front especially at I6 (or I7 if Terror Assault is still a thing) it would be broken. Rends on 5/6s isn't that much of a dramatic increase and believe me I've used him enough to see just how often he does manage to rend which isn't a lot. 

 

And again - saying he hits and wounds on 2+ - not a given. Yes it requires some decent play to make sure he does outnumber and of course that's player skill that should be rewarded. But who's he running to outnumber with? Assuming he goes in a dreadclaw to be on the board first turn - he can't join Terror Squads. Terminator Squads are a waste because you want them dropping in on him, you're paying too much of a points tax for assault marines/raptors so that's command squads or veterans. So 5 in a command squad - the enemy will need thinning out dramatically (assuming it's a 10 man squad of course although elites like Suzerains are an exception) or 10 veterans assuming they take no casualties on the turn out in the open they have to survive seeing as they have to get out as Sevatar's teleport homer is only usable if he's on the board at the beginning of the turn and in sufficient space to allow the terminators to land.

 

Against regular marines he'll blow through them like they're not there - that's not even a consideration it's a given. Against Suzerains? Justaerin/Deathshroud? He'll bounce off them. And all without getting the bonus for outnumbering. Cataphractii are a reasonable road block because of the 4++ they boast but Suzerains? Realistically you're looking at 1 dead per combat round when there should be at least 3. 

 

Outflank is overrated - the units that are primed to take advantage of it have scout or infiltrate - meaning if you do go down that road a good chunk of your army is off the board. The optimal way to get Sev in would be a dreadclaw but that would in reserve. The Terminators you'd deep strike on him would be in reserve. You'd have three units in reserve to benefit from outflank and if an opponent sees that coming they can deploy in a manner to prevent it being effective. If the Terminators are guaranteed to arrive by a certain turn or can do something more meaningful other than stand out in the open for a turn after landing then yeah that would be a decent benefit. Who knows they might give that kind of thing to Atramentar when they get around to doing them.

 

It's not that Sevatar is a bad choice. He can be very good when used well, I know, I've made it happen and been on the receiving end too. It's just as a character he's caught in a half and half scenario. He offers utility for units with DS/Outflank but that's limited. He has the statline of a A grade fighter and yet his equipment is sub par in comparison to elsewhere and his one "advantage" has less than a 50% success rate. Hence looking at what could improve him in either one facet or the other because right now he's neither of each. And as for Abaddon? Of course he could be improved. Dramatically. But at least he gets to swing his power fist if he wants to throw a tantrum.

 

 

See above for the power thing. On average its way above a 50% for getting precog

 

I put sevetar with terminators 99% of the time, just power/chainfist melee ones, with another unit of combi plas ready to deep strike. I've never regretted them over a command squad.

 

The javelin is one of the strongest units in the game and has outflank and if you don't vexillas or a damocles, then outflank is absolutely the best way to deploy them. Its also something to be said about outriders since barrage is so popular and they're such a high priority target if they have plasma.

[Balthamal]

 

On average if your opponent has no psychers then the power goes off; a 4+ on two dice is usually going to off statistically, while your opponent needs 6 dice (on average) to stop a success with just 1 warp charge. So yes, it isn't a guarantee, but usually it should cast, hence the balancing around it

 

See above for the power thing. On average its way above a 50% for getting precog

 

I put sevetar with terminators 99% of the time, just power/chainfist melee ones, with another unit of combi plas ready to deep strike. I've never regretted them over a command squad.

 

The javelin is one of the strongest units in the game and has outflank and if you don't vexillas or a damocles, then outflank is absolutely the best way to deploy them. Its also something to be said about outriders since barrage is so popular and they're such a high priority target if they have plasma.

 

 

I must just be unlucky then, the last 6-7 times I've run Sev I've had roughly 4 shots at using Precog on average and have at least 4 of those where it's gone off twice and failed twice and of the two that have gone off, 1 has been denied - rolling high for Warp Charges is worse than a double edged sword when you're capped at 2 and even a psyker-less enemy can throw 4+ dice at it. 

 

You're spot on about Javelins. They're good when getting dibs on the side they can arrive on but the issue remains - you're basically needing to put a chunk of your army into reserve to see the benefits. 

 

What Terminators do you run if you don't mind me asking? Tartaros or Cata

[SkimaskMohawk]

Cataphractii, the 4++ necessary for all the stuff they end up fighting in combat and get shot with, especially when sevetar is rolling with them

[Balthamal]

When they do manage to assault do they ever leave anything alive to sweep?

[SkimaskMohawk]

No, I usually threw them into a spartan so they assaulted turn three or four so it was fairly consistent