[HH1.0] Night Lords Tactics

[Gorgoff]

When it comes to Storm Eagles I always recommand to take some super cheap unit like a TSS with flamers or smth like that.

Putting a 250+ points unit in a 200+ points flyer which could be shot down in the moment it reaches the battlefield killing everyone on board, is a waste of points. In my experience it never pays of to take the risk.

To be honest I never saw that it payed of to take a Storm Eagle in general but IF you do it then don't put a huge unit in it. Just take 5 dudes with flamers and let them grap an objective turn 3 in a best case scenario and be done with it.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Gorgoff

[Vykes]

I rather like the Unknown Legionnaire's take on the list, honestly.  A damocles is an interesting option (and one I'm only experimenting with now).  Naturally, with any kind of heresy list there's gonna be some hard counters and some legions that can throw you for a loop but that's the nature of it.  I think it's got a lot of potential and the old one had a lot of character.  

 

Gorgoff, Iiii dunno dude, I didn't play a lot of AoS but a ton of 6E and 7E, and two eagles with full on extra hand weapon tac squads with apothecaries was my blood angel mode d jeur.  Making sure to still have something big and bad on the table T1 was important, and for the most part if you can cut down their AA those Eagles get to be more of a nuisance than most can handle. -shrugs- worked for me, I still love em, hence owning 5 between 2 armies and only 2 raptors. 

 

Post Scriptum: Aaaay, SyNidius, no worries on me, I'm just saying that somehow switching to take out the Night Raptors and splitting the tacs to add Rhinos, with some Raptor wouldn't make it into a god tier tournament slayer list.  (I do think melta bombs on that many sources is a good way to get some anti armour area coverage) and Power axes are... interesting, and the conventional method for dealing with artificer sergeants and termies so it's not terrible.  Try a game, proxy what you need once or twice and see if you can pull off the playstyle you're going for.  Practice and an affinity can lead to a rather intimate knowledge of what to expect and how to get the most out of units that other people might dismiss that you can make work.  

 

For the record, I can't use Drop Pods: they have a real tendency to max-scatter with my dice and end up with stranded strike forces that get picked off way too quick.  The math says it shouldn't happen, the experience for me is that nothing but disaster can happen.  Same source that says, "Feed me fire raptors, my Xiphons and Eagles hunger." 

Edited November 16, 2018 by Vykes

[Gorgoff]

Haha you wrote AoS, your're out. :D

 

CC squads in flyers means first possible CC turn 3. Too late to be honest. And an investment of at least 900 points which only starts actually do something in turn 3 doesn't look promising.

But at least it's cool....

Edit: I remember a game against Guard where we played (and sang along) that song whenever one of his Valkyres arrived. That was awesome.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Gorgoff

[Vykes]

Hah, AoS, defense mechanism of denial, right?  I'm kiiiinda painting up some angry red conan cos players for a mate o' mine, so it's kinda like a mind bleach.  Alright, I didn't play much AoS (read as 'any') and only some AoD proper, but I've been using the black books for 6-7E before the re-release.  

 

Aye, It's actually uncomfortably closer to 1,100 pts with two loaded Eagles, but the real worry is losing your T1 forces by getting focus fired to oblivion (A task that some legions can do veeeery well, lookin' at you Iron Warriors).  If you get enough leverage with pavewaying it, T2 can see some good return investments and by T3 you get a good hand in dictating the flow as it can lead to some really good force concentration against armies which tend to end up spread out gunning for objectives.  Cracking 'castles' is tough but it usually is without significant support anyway... though there's some fun in firing at Raiders with las cannons and letting vengeance salvos drift over bunkered down infantry groups nearby.  After all, better to hold objectives at the end than at the beginning, eh? 

 

Aye, they look cool, and got the best theme song out there (Though Spartans can at least contest it). 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Night Lords have solid turn 2 survivability, but I'll repeat what other guys have said and say that turn 3 combat at best with the steagle is a lot of points sitting around.

 

A full squad of 20 with extra cc and powerfist on the sarge with talent for murder going kills 9.8 power armoured guys when charging. Now that could be veterans or legion uniques or tacs or whatever. But that's still 480 minimum, taking effect turn 3 at the earliest. They really need to make an impact on the game due to their non contribution until halfway through the game and 25% of the points in 2k.

 

And I dont hate blobs of 20. I just don't think them in a storm raven is really useful, especially in 2k.

[Vykes]

So long as it's around by the end, not dying, and being able to do their job as an objective taker (not just contesting) I generally see it as a positive.  There's already a lack of bodies out there and not much heavy armour.  It's not necessarily bad it's just gonna be risky. 

 

Playing Mathhammer, you're right.  20 Night Lords marines with a sergeant that has either a power fist or a power axe should kill 2 marines with pistols which will be enough for Talent of Murder to go off on an equivalent unit (2.1+grenade if you want to be chancy).  If we want to go further and add Overwatch then there's an expected 1.0 casualties, and with the loss of 1 trooper that's 9.7 kills on the charge against power armoured opponents for a total of 12-ish expected casualties.  Against an enemy tactical squad without close combat weapons, there's an expected return of 1.7 casualties to the Night Lords.  Without stubborn, we're talking about a -8 break test expected.  

 

It's a matter of getting to an enemy intact and I just don't have any confidence on a 10 man non-transported unit doing that without a 2+, invuls, or some very real consistent cover saves (From the Shadows is nice T1, but it's still only 5+ nice). 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well, 90% of lists use terror assault for a near guarantee on night fighting, or curze for the actual guarantee, granting the 4+.

 

In contrast to the 20 man blob with eagle, a 10 man weapon masters vet squad with power axe sarge in a dreadclaw kills 9.2 on the charge with tfm active, for 310. Granted, you need to ensure pre casualties to get the trait and there isn't as much board control, but the same damage output for drastically less points and an earlier impact.

[Vykes]

Aye, which is good early game but sapped by late game.  

You're definitely not wrong but "getting to ensure pre-casualties" is going to be tough/impossible depending on targets.  Which means you're also going to need to work in tandem with a second group which brings up the points, again.  Without support, it's very unlikely to happen cleanly against a singular entity consisting of 15+strong troops.  An Eagle with a Tac Squad can tackle that (more reliably). 

 

The dreadclaw can drop T1 (or T2 if you have something like a leviathan drop pod and want to take that down T1 and have an even number), so they'll land on target but can't assault from reserve.  Meaning you have a 10 man squad having to fight it out in a close range firefight for a turn with their target before being able to charge T2.  They can't use a slab of armour for protection as they have to debark.  By that time you're hoping it's not a big legion squad that's not going to Fury of the Legion the weapon masters to paste (relatively, we know how much damage bolters generate on average.  But against the Weapon Master's 2 wounds caused the legion squad at close range does 7.8 back with Fury), and that they don't get lucky with overwatch on the way to the charge if Fury wasn't an option.  The Claw doesn't generate the offensive output to deplete line squads and you're relying on tfm to go off after a turn at close quarters meaning that you're hoping your T1 shooting has killed enough to take on an enemy line squad before the T2 assault should finish them off or route them.  Then you have to have them last till turn 5+ on objective games.  

 

The Eagle can get in on T2 and despite how devastating the zooming shoot-down can be on any squad inside, if it isn't instantly blown to scrap, the Legionnaires inside are shielded from small arms which minimizes the threat from Fury.  From T3 they're on the ground and charging from the assault vehicle.  An Eagle can generate wounds enough to give a squad an edge and more reliably tackle an opponent (but if they're taking multi-melta and las-cannons you better be targetting vehicles as that's getting stupidly pricey). Then they have to hold objectives for less time.  

 

The vets are cheaper, but rely on a lot of factors falling into place and not having a sizeable response back.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Vykes

[SkimaskMohawk]

Uh.... that's not how you use dreadclaws properly. You drop it in fairly far away, and then flat out to a location where a 6" move plus a disembark plus charge will get you in range. There's no disembarking turn 1; you set up for the turn 2 disembark+charge due to assault vehicle. You still get a jinking av 12 shield, you get to assault earlier, you cost less points. The dreadclaw is almost the sole cause the storm eagle isn't taken 

 

That extra ~150 can be put into a rhino tac squad to take mid game objectives and doubles the targets and scoring units involved. 

[Vykes]

Alright, I concede that if you wanna use it like that, sure.  So if you want to hear you're right then here it is. 

 

SkimaskMohawk is right, I am incorrect. 

 

I value the eagle, I like it as a fighting platform with las-cannons that tend to do enough work when twin linked; it's worked well for me and I'd never toss it away for something like that.  It's not in my nature, it's not in my comfort, and if you had half the bad luck I have with drop pods it might change your opinion too (which sucks as I like my T1-T2 BS5 rapid fire plasma from Sons of Horus.)  

 

But hey, you got that, awesome stuff thumbs up -shrugs- it's honestly good advice even if I don't appreciate some of my favourite stuff that works for me personally being denigrated, y'dig dude? 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Vykes

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's not a personal attack or anything. Mass steagles and despoilers can work in an air cav style list, but I think eaters take advantage of that the best.

 

Just as a high impact unit transport, you can get faster and cheaper, which can add up a lot in 2k. The fact dreadclaws can take dreads and support high aggressiveness also doesn't help the comparison.

[Vykes]

No worries dude, like I said, it's really one of those style things (and the cop-out response is that it's also a 'meta' thing).  Who knows, because of the way cover and jink works the VIII are a lot more hardy than my IX and XVI boys.  I can't use Drop pods, they die... like, a lot, or they miss and scatter even more.  They just don't live to see contact with the foe so a close combat squad from them is asking to be obliterated by any wandering Vindicator or worse.  With the XVIths Death Dealer, I need short range fire support so Drop pods do that, basically. 

 

Eagles sure aren't armour killers like a dedicated tank destroyer, but the twin-linked las cannons seem to do enough work, while multi-melta is an option on a fast mover.  Because there's a fair bit of heavy armour supported by 1 static AA placement around here as a pretty common feature, st.7 shooting won't cut it and the rest requires heavier armour busters.  Melta bombs can do it but I've seen them get harangued or their sergeants assassinated in pretty short order which just leaves the Armoured groups rolling around without much of an issue.  So, if you can get in a sharp tap to the AA with something like a cheap Sky Slayer squadron, it seems to be enough to hobble the Mortis and Deredeo patterns and let Eagles and their like slip under the radar.  Likewise, if the tacs aren't under pressure to not die to ground based fire just so they can take an objective late game, then I view it as a win.  Early impact is great, but if they have reserves coming in then it's just as good to have something up your sleeve to deal with them, too. 

Oh aye, Dread-claws carrying contemptors are a very serious thing, Leviathans in Legion Dread drops are pretty common too.  I've seen the XIII take a lot but the Kharibdys got popular because of its carrying capacity.  But I can't bring myself to get restricted to 10 power armour squads trying to drop in for Turn 1-2 without knowing they'll be half dead or worse by turn 3.  An eagle solves that problem by amping up how much padding it can transport, keep them shielded, and land them later (or they explode, you know, one or the other).  And, likewise, I don't tend to take 1 eagle, it's usually 2 at least. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's definitely a meta thing. Usually the people who start using a certain unit first get the most mileage out of them before everyone else catches on.

 

Here's the thing with dreads and helical targeting arrays. First, they need to have had their turn to activate them; you go first, you don't get intercepted. Second, theyre restricted by their weapon arcs on the intercept; they only have 22.5 degrees out each side for los. Basically they're easy to position around for intercept, and never ignore jink at least.

 

That being said, the buff to augury scanners makes other things more viable against non-flyer reserves.

[Vykes]

Yeah, that's more than fair, Dreads with helicals tend to decent enough to position with long enough range to still constitute a problem.  Naturally, if they are, they're usually back towards a table edge and thus outflank is fun enough against them, making things like the Javelins and I suppose special weapon outriders a good (if not necessarily deployment reliable) match.  I can't think of anything with a 360 arc that has skyfire/interceptor bar the Mastodon and fortifications, so it's a good point. 

 

The boost to augury scanners is big, probably bigger than the melta bomb change/clarification if only because of its versatility. 

 

I guess coming full circle to the subject at hand: aside from the Raptor and the twin-linked Javelin cyclones, other legion's various T2+ reserves still feel like they could be a real issue with that lack of armoured bodies and mobility. 57/58 troopers with a 3+ save, even if a third is covered by FNP intrinsically feels a little thin without some armour or a second wave (earlier eagle+tacs giving both).  What's the post-nightfighting plan for a terror list like that?  

[LtDan]

A missile launcher squad with flakk and augery scanners

[Brad_hutcho]

Asked this Q on the World Eaters tactica, but figured here would be a good place to try too:

 

Night Lords terror squad heads? Wondering if they'd be any good for my second squad of World Eaters assault marines, mainly so I don't have two squads with World Eaters veteran heads, cool as they are. The terror squad heads have a very "special forces" feel to them which I think could suit, but the pics on FW website are meh at best. Can anyone give me an idea, or pics please? :-)

[Ranwulf]

Ok, I don't really have the army, but I love Sevatar so I'm just here to give an idea for his new FAQ (where he has both Master of Ambush warlord traits):

 

Infiltrate him with Terminators, and then deep strike Termies at his side without scatter.

 

Then just yell:

 

MASTER OF THE ATRAMENTAR!

[Gorgoff]

Ok, I don't really have the army, but I love Sevatar so I'm just here to give an idea for his new FAQ (where he has both Master of Ambush warlord traits):

 

Infiltrate him with Terminators, and then deep strike Termies at his side without scatter.

 

Then just yell:

 

MASTER OF THE ATRAMENTAR!

I like the yelling part. B) Edited February 11, 2019 by Gorgoff

[LtDan]

He still isn't the beast he should be....but be now is more useful. Infiltrating machine killers or plasma squads should be fun too.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

What's the best rite of war for a new player?

[Gorgoff]

What's the best rite of war for a new player?

None.

Start without, learn to play and feel the army list.

$ wise it is Pride of the Legion because you don't need so much miniatures like in a regular list. That means less painting as well which is a nice bonus.

[LtDan]

Assualt marines or terror squads are the best base I feel. Tho there are other choices

[LtDan]

So nightlords destroyers.....

[choppyred]

Assualt marines or terror squads are the best base I feel. Tho there are other choices

What Load out would you give them?

[Rhynos]

Terror squads i'd normally give volkite chargers (higher strength and assault weapons) they will chew through marines. Don't bother with the rotor cannon, though flamer can have its uses. Headsman with artificer armour and either chainglaive+melta bomb or powerfist.
Assault squad with power axe for every 5 marines. If you can afford it, melta bombs for the squad. They are not mandatory (and gets expensive in big units) though in Terror Assault it gives you another big anti tank option.