[HH1.0] Night Lords Tactics

[SkimaskMohawk]

The traditional loadout is grav bombard, phosphex, siege drill, volkite calivers. Usually in a pod due to the short ranged nature of the grav and phosphex. The melta lance version is pretty good at killing tanks as well due to volume of quality shots at good strength. But the storm cannon just bounces off too much to justify taking it on such an expensive unit.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

I agree that missiles+melta javelins seems to be more effective and makes for a devastating first salvo. Heavy bolter is useless on it anyway.

 

Concerning leviathan, Storm Cannons are not *that* bad - it's a great marine mincer that can also try to glance vehicles but it's also too short ranged and the lack of ap2 hurts. It just doesn't feel as optimal loadout for almighty leviathan though I would love to have it on smaller dreadnoughts in some capacity.

 

Safest bet for me is just as above. Phospex is mandatory, I prefer Volkite than Heavy Flamers though argument could be made for them especially when using a drop pod. In most cases Drill is safer to take, but Claw definitely has it's use. If you expect to see primarch, monsters or eternal warrior/T6+ characters Claw can get some good value from severing cut. And most importantly it looks cooler than drill :D

 

Alternatively you can grab claw+drill to really get stuck in and abuse amazing I5 on charge. Leviathan still packs some ranged punch with Phospex, Volkites/Flamers and inbuilt Meltaguns.

[Imren]

 

...

Alternatively you can grab claw+drill to really get stuck in and abuse amazing I5 on charge. Leviathan still packs some ranged punch with Phospex, Volkites/Flamers and inbuilt Meltaguns.

This is how you play a Leviathan, preferably drop it close to enemy deployment. If charged 1st turn then you have the flamers and meltaguns for overwatch, if not, you charge! :)

 

Drop podded close combat Leviathans are excellent distraction carnifexes (although a bit expensive), they can act as a serious road bump for any enemy unit including primarchs while the rest of your army focus on grabbing/playing the objectives.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

...

Alternatively you can grab claw+drill to really get stuck in and abuse amazing I5 on charge. Leviathan still packs some ranged punch with Phospex, Volkites/Flamers and inbuilt Meltaguns.

This is how you play a Leviathan, preferably drop it close to enemy deployment. If charged 1st turn then you have the flamers and meltaguns for overwatch, if not, you charge! :)

 

Drop podded close combat Leviathans are excellent distraction carnifexes (although a bit expensive), they can act as a serious road bump for any enemy unit including primarchs while the rest of your army focus on grabbing/playing the objectives.

The second melta gun and extra attack is almost never worth it compared to the grav bombard. You use them in the same way, except the grav version demands far more attention because you just remove infantry that doesn't have invul save. The calivers are also just much better than the flamers due to range and strength.

 

You drop a pure melee leviathan in and use phosphex. Then it's just a tough melee brick, but ultimately something you could get the same threat level using a contemptor...or box dread. The grav version has to be addressed; it's in the backline able to kill all the infantry in its 18" range and additionally able to gun down low armour targets with its melta and 4 twinlinked bs5, str 6 shots. You pay like 30 points more and get a far more flexible and deadly unit as a result.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

 The grav version has to be addressed; it's in the backline able to kill all the infantry in its 18" range

 

 "backline" is quite a statement at mere 18"

 

But comparison to Contemptor is indeed truthful because in the end, melee wise, Leviathan can be "only" as effective as him. Same Ws, same Attacks, S8 extra Hammer of Wraths are nice, but still, hardly a deal breaker. Extra initiative seems amazing but it can be hard to use as most things either cant hurt you or have I1 with unwieldy fists. So there are few cases where higher I comes into play big (but when it does it can prove to be crucial). And while 4++ is exceedingly awesome and he is way tougher than his lesser cousins, he still only has AV13 front, as does Cortus&friends and normal atomantic shielding at 5++ ag. shooting is not too shabby either. In addition Cortus can also buff himself with things like rage or I5 so a face off - Levy vs Cortus, though statistically clearly favouring the former, could go both ways on the field.

 

In my opinion Leviathan suffers (price wise) from trying to be so flexible. For typical infantry or vehicle killer, Cortus or Contemptor will do just fine and for a huge discount. Yeah, extra durability is great, but most rules like higher I, severing cuts, extra HoW are not crucial in that role. You hit hard enough with normal chainfist on a dreadnought. Leviathans cannons are unique so it's very tempting too slap them on, heck maybe even dual bombards! But then you are straying further from melee, and not making full potential of your beastly cc prowess. You pay for melta(s) and flamers/calivers but without split fire, what is an optimal target for it? Very light vehicles, likely costing a fraction of your price? Hordes? If you add Phospex, as you should, you get a truly unholy concoction of weird firepower with completely different roles and ranges. Sadly Leviathan would really benefit from 8th edition rules (eg. effectively Split fire for all weapons).

 

All in all, I love the model, but for melee I usually go for a budget Cortus with Chainfist and Grav. Especially with Terror Assault with the single HS slot. It's way simpler and cheaper and can deal equal havoc amidst enemy line, at least in melee (though haywire guns are likely more effective than levy's puny meltas could ever be). But I definitely can see the alluring flexibilty of Leviathan that can turn it into a truly devastating machine in the right circumstances, especially with that ungodly bombard+phosphex...or at least make it a distraction carnifex for a couple of turns.

 

Besides, I still have PTSD from my last game with lev as it was blown clean off the table first turn by a Boxnought with a single lascannon.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Lautrec the Embraced

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well, you drop it centrally to maximize the 18" in their backline lol.

 

And I'll fully admit that the Leviathan really isn't anything more than a glorified distraction canifex, but its brutally effective if left alone with grav and/or phosphex. The trick is to target units that are too close to other ones, using the large blast and abusing the phosphex rules as best as possible. Have it cause a commotion, in theory survive return fire during night time with the bonus cover from disembark, drive your spartan or Curze bomb at them while they're to prevent more grav bombard and it beating up their units.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

Well, you drop it centrally to maximize the 18" in their backline lol

Oh, right, now it's all coming together!

 

Though with stealth and shrouded you still "only" get 4+, same as your inv. Unless you can bump it up with real cover.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Lautrec the Embraced

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Well, you drop it centrally to maximize the 18" in their backline lol

Oh, right, now it's all coming together!

 

Though with stealth and shrouded you still "only" get 4+, same as your inv. Unless you can bump it up with real cover.

You position the pod so you can put your back to one of the fins and you're in between the doors when you disembark. A lot of shooting benefits from a 2+ cover as a result, only things shooting you from the front will be at the 4+.

[strawberry fist]

Which type of Terminator armour do the Night Lords use for the legion terminator squads and Atramentar or do they use all three variants?

 

Game play wise I can see Tartarus armour possibly being the best choice due to being able to overwatch and do sweeping advances am I right?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well ask yourself a few questions.

 

How good are the guns you want to overwatch with; are they likely to do anything?

 

Terminators only pack combi weapons when they're coming out of a delivery method and are able to burn them right away (like plasma/melta off the deepstrike). Even if you didn't, a ten man squad nets you the following amounts of casualties from overwatch;

 

10 with 2 heavy flamers and 8 combi flamers, all Max shots: 5.2 dead power armour

10 with 10 combi plasma: 2.8 dead power armour

10 with volkite: 0.9 dead power armour

 

However, most of the time you'll either use 5 deepstriking (and blow their combi) or some amount in a Spartan and not upgrade their ranged weapon giving the following;

 

5 terminators with spent combis; 0.14 dead power armour

10 terminators with combi bolters; 1.0 dead power armour

 

Okay, so overwatch is pretty much a waste.

 

 

How many variables are there to successfully sweep an opponent?

 

You need to kill more than they kill of yours, but not kill the unit you're fighting, they need to fail a leadership test and then lose a roll off.

 

How often does it matter if the broken unit is swept or gets away?

 

It basically boils down to one of two cases; you're attacking a main unit with your terminators or you're trying to eliminate a scoring unit close to an objective.

 

In the first, it doesn't matter as much; either way your terminators will have rendered that uupt unable to act in their next turn and stopped them from being a threat. Some spare ranged weapons can probably mop up the survivors.

 

The second case is more important, because regardless of trying to deny them the objective or claim it for yourself, that unit needs to die. If the unit survives it can either claim if they manage to kill your terminators or simply contest it. But 5 terminators with fists kill an average of 1.4 from bolters and 6.2 from melee, 8.2 if you have aTfM; only very large squads or other terminators should be able to survive to potentially flee.

 

 

How often are you going need to run with your terminator squad vs. Shooting and/or charging.

 

Because terminators are such high-cost shock troops, they're almost always given a delivery method. Because of their scoring, they're then sent right towards an objective. Most of the time, they are going to be trying to kill whatever is close to an objective as a result; having to run means they were critically misdeployed.

 

 

And do all of those things offset the defensive power of a 4++.

 

I think we can say objectively that overwatch doesn't even make the cut. I'd say it's harder to take advantage of sweeping advance with properly armed night lord terminators as the sheer damage is so likely to kill the target unit. The running thing is the most subjective and based on circumstance, but is less important the better one is with unit placement and positioning.

 

 

The 4++ helps the terminators fulfill their role of shock troops. You can fight primarchs and leviathans and know that however hot they roll, you should cut that in half for casualties. You can stand on that objective out of cover and make them have to overcommit to wiping that unit out. It helps you survive against initiative ap2 to bring about the godlike chainfist. It's the armour that lets terminators terminate. But only legion ones; praetors and a lot of legion specific terminators get more out of tartaros.

 

As for the fluff? They used them all; I believe the atrementar used cataphractii in Curze, but my memory is hazy.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

I agree, it's simply safer to take Cataphractii. Overwatch is always pitiful, unless you brought flamers but few people do, at least against legiones. Math is slightly off here i believe:

 

5 terminators with spent combis; 0.14 dead power armour

 

It's rather 0.28 but it doesn't change the point, it's still negligible.

 

I don't recall mentions of any specific patterns in 'Curze'. Atramentar and Sev seem to be wearing unspecified terminator armour...let's just hope it's not Indomitus.

 

I, as a mere example, usually run Cataphractii teleporting squad with combi-plasmas and infiltrating & footslogging Tartaros Command Squad. And honestly I think it would be better to use Cataphractii but it's more varied this way. Besides Tartaros looks cooler to me and a little bit of mobility can help when you have a banner.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I agree, it's simply safer to take Cataphractii. Overwatch is always pitiful, unless you brought flamers but few people do, at least against legiones. Math is slightly off here i believe:

 

5 terminators with spent combis; 0.14 dead power armour

It's rather 0.28 but it doesn't change the point, it's still negligible.

 

I don't recall mentions of any specific patterns in 'Curze'. Atramentar and Sev seem to be wearing unspecified terminator armour...let's just hope it's not Indomitus.

 

I, as a mere example, usually run Cataphractii teleporting squad with combi-plasmas and infiltrating & footslogging Tartaros Command Squad. And honestly I think it would be better to use Cataphractii but it's more varied this way. Besides Tartaros looks cooler to me and a little bit of mobility can help when you have a banner.

 

 

Ya weird, must have put 5 shots in initially

[strawberry fist]

I’m thinking of running combi melta’s on the terminators, would the ones from the mark IV set do if in swap the hand for a terminator hand?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Honestly the easiest way to make combi weapons is is snip on of the bolter barrels and replace with nozzle of choice. It's obviously not a very good conversion, but it gets the point across and removes confusion.

[Gorgoff]

Tartaros are great in Zone Mortalis though. Running and overwatch are way more important there.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Tartaros are great in Zone Mortalis though. Running and overwatch are way more important there.

That's very true. I'll caveat all my statements with the fact that they're about the recommended point size for age of darkness games. Anything to do with zone mortalis, raiding forces, centurion mode, mournival fan-rites, etc... aren't going to be accurately covered.

[Gorgoff]

What worked die me quiet well was ZM Rite of War with one unit of Tartaros as part of the starting force and one unit of Cataphractii coming deepstriking as part of the reserves. That way you have though as nails shocktroops where you need them and some mobile element which also is very tough.

[Aeternus]

Just a quick inquiry since I can't remember where I think I saw it, is aTfM activated in challenges if your unit outnumbered the opponent's? At some point I could have sworn I saw someone point out wording of the challenge rules making the two models fight almost in a vacuum (so 1:1 unless bulky you don't get it) but now for the life of me can't find this. Any help is appreciated! :)

[Gorgoff]

Just a quick inquiry since I can't remember where I think I saw it, is aTfM activated in challenges if your unit outnumbered the opponent's? At some point I could have sworn I saw someone point out wording of the challenge rules making the two models fight almost in a vacuum (so 1:1 unless bulky you don't get it) but now for the life of me can't find this. Any help is appreciated! :)

Page 36 in Legiones Astartes Age of Darkness Legions book.

[Rhynos]

The Unit and any attached characters are locked into a combat.
Challenges don't create a vacuum. They just cannot be allocated wounds from outside the challenge until all other enemy models are dead. 
ATfM is worked out at the start of each initiative step.
So for example:
You have a unit with a character which just outnumbers an enemy unit.
You charge into combat and issue/accept a challenge.
Both characters are striking at Initiative 5, the rest of the units are at Initiative 4. 
At initiate 5 you out-number the enemy unit (Including character) aTfM can be used by your character in the challenge.
A poor stroke of luck in the challenge see's your character slain and a couple of wounds overkilled (carried over, thus killing some of your unit)
Now it's Initiative 4, you no longer outnumber the enemy, therefore aTfM cannot be used.
Hope that helps.

 
 

[Aeternus]

The Unit and any attached characters are locked into a combat.

Challenges don't create a vacuum. They just cannot be allocated wounds from outside the challenge until all other enemy models are dead. 

ATfM is worked out at the start of each initiative step.

So for example:

You have a unit with a character which just outnumbers an enemy unit.

You charge into combat and issue/accept a challenge.

Both characters are striking at Initiative 5, the rest of the units are at Initiative 4. 

At initiate 5 you out-number the enemy unit (Including character) aTfM can be used by your character in the challenge.

A poor stroke of luck in the challenge see's your character slain and a couple of wounds overkilled (carried over, thus killing some of your unit)

Now it's Initiative 4, you no longer outnumber the enemy, therefore aTfM cannot be used.

Hope that helps.

 

 

 

Alright cool, cheers! Does help since it was whether it could be used by the character in the challenge specifically at their initiative I was hung up on :) 

[The Scorpion]

Two new Rites of War. This thread will soon be going bananas.

[corvus.calvariam]

Three, the new rites are Bloodied Gauntlet, Swift Blade and Cross of Bone. Edited September 14, 2020 by raeho

[Aeternus]

Three, the new rites are Bloodied Gauntlet, Swift Blade and Cross of Bone.

I mean we've had cross of bone around for a while, though equally a lot of people might see it as new since it wasn't with NL rules previously, just in one of the other campaign books. 2/3, either way there's cool new opportunities!

[The Scorpion]

Cross of Bone is a Zone Mortalis sleeper hit.

 

Bloodied Gauntelet is probably the "vanilla" RoW now: kamikaze 20-man tactial blobs, and scoring trough "implacable advance".

 

Swift blade is fascinating. I want to see the kind of lists that arise from it.