TrashMan Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 So how powerfull is a GK? Well, the fluff seems to swing like a pendulum left and right (as it does in most things). Sometiems a single GK is a might force capable of taking out a big demn solo. Sometimes it takes more of them. Looking at hte battle at Armageddon, we have 109 GK's...almost all of them die. Some would say that shows jsut how weak they are when Angron beat them..but Angron wasn't alone. 12 of the strongest Greater Demons of Khorne were his bodyguards. And he was sorounded by a sea of "lesser" demons, traitor guard, cultists and traitor marines (the book specificy mentions traitor marines fighting GK's with their bodies on a heap) So 109 GK teleport in the dead center of a massive enemy host, sorounded by all sides against many of the greatest demons...and still some survive. I'd say that that only proves just how badass they really are. Taking all that into account + the very real power of faith in 40K + the existance of larger-than-life characters (Calgar, Grimnar, etc..) and the "ancient greek myth" type of writing in some places, the swhole Draigo fluff doesn't look as redicolous anymore to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281869-strength-of-a-grey-knight/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Only a handful of GK survived, becuase the majoirty suffered a Perils of the Warp for trying to DS into a space covered by enemy units... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281869-strength-of-a-grey-knight/#findComment-3494453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 ^heh, nice. 40k rules are always an abstraction. I'd say we're represented fairly well; we're Marine statlines, but we can situationally pump ourselves to either S5 or inflict ID (along with the stranger specialist squad powers). I'd say in Apoc, fielding those formations against eachother would see a pretty similar result to the background of the battle. A Brotherhood Champion with three wounds (best representation of Taremar Aurelian, as he did literally trade his life to banished Angron) and 108 Terminators versus 12 Bloodthirsters and Daemon Angron would be a close thing; we force weapon the MC's but they rip up plenty of Termies before dying. Bloodletters would drag some of us us down with sheer attack damage, but we would still run them over in melee due to 2+ saves. Angron would require Aurelian to best and murder 6-7 Terminators with every swing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281869-strength-of-a-grey-knight/#findComment-3495854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashMan Posted October 16, 2013 Author Share Posted October 16, 2013 But it's not just 108 termies vs. 12 demons+ angron. You forget a host of lesser demons and cultist/traitor guards/traitor marines. Add Khorne berzerkers to the mix. It just leaves me wondering just how powerfull a GK (or anyone in 40K) can be. Hyperion broke Angrons blade. Powerfull psykers can snap titans in half Sisters of Battle can perform miracles Imperial saints can match demons in combat. There are stories of a Black Templar champion that won impossible victories whenthe might/spirit/will of the Emperor descended upon him. The flulff lists GK paladins and Grand Masters being an equal match for a greater demon. Hm...what if the Emperor turns a GK into a saint? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281869-strength-of-a-grey-knight/#findComment-3496816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Thawn. He just cannot die. I mean, how much more powerful do you want? (Edit: Let's not mention Draigo! :P) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281869-strength-of-a-grey-knight/#findComment-3496826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 But it's not just 108 termies vs. 12 demons+ angron. You forget a host of lesser demons and cultist/traitor guards/traitor marines. Add Khorne berzerkers to the mix. In the battle Knights fought in, they Deepstruck into the heart of the enemy. The cultists, traitor guard and World Eaters were busy mauling the Wolves and Imperial Guard way back on the frontline. They barely could see the battle the 'Ragged Brotherhood' fought. Yes there were lesser daemons, but against over 100 Knight Terminators, they were barely a problem. The Aegis effect when they landed banished whole swathes of the lesser forms, only the Princes and Bloodthirsters could resist the pain of the Knight's existence and forge through it to murder them. Hyperion broke Angrons blade. It literally killed him to do it though (only by being put in stasis so his body would heal the horrendous damage was he saved from permanent brain and organ damage). Also, he only broke the blade because Angron continued to put pressure on it himself. It was a neat metaphor of Angron's blind rage disarming him in his moment of triumph (ie he had to fight Taremar without a sword). Hyperion bascially bled out his soul to stop that blade descending, and he only just caught it. Powerfull psykers can snap titans in half Only Alpha+ level psykers can, and they're extremely rare. Also, they tend to fall to Chaos pretty quickly, because they're basically mini-Emperor's (not directly the same in power, but they're so far removed from even Astartes Librarians that they may as well be demi-gods). Titans aren't that hard to break with the right tools, Assault Terminators can do it, as can EMP weaponry. Sisters of Battle can perform miracles Because they've promised their souls and lives to the Emperor's service. He also can't always grant them his favour, it's a bit random if they even get a miracle to happen. More often than not, like Marines, they have to get it done the hard way. 'Helps those who help themselves' type deal. Also, don't forget that 40k humans are intensely superstitious, and view knowledge with suspicion. It's entirely possible a lot of 'miracles' are simply incredible luck or excellent soldiering, with no supernatural intervention. Imperial saints can match demons in combat. Well yeah, they're meant to. Imperial Saints are basically Greater Daemons of the Emperor. Same basic mechanics as say the relationship between Khorne and his Bloodthirsters, except in this case the one being exalted starts their life as a human and chooses to sacrifice their life willingly to save others. Then Emps, one in a billion instances, looks over and goes 'damn, that person really is worth my time, better bring them back as a living icon of faith'. Then, Celestine pops out of the warp and continues kicking daemons in the face. There are stories of a Black Templar champion that won impossible victories whenthe might/spirit/will of the Emperor descended upon him. Again, they're myths. Basically, at the start of a Crusade being launched, the Reclusiarch assigned to the Crusade leads all of the chosen warriors in prayer. One of them has a fit of ecstasy and goes slightly insane with fervour. The Reclusiarch selects him as the Emperor's Champion, gives him armour equal to a Captains and a sword that is designed to slay anything. Emperor's Champs are expected to do insanely heroic stuff, its actually a mark of shame if they don't seek out enemy heroes and cut them down in full view of the enemy. It's just pure skill and the complete willingness to die for the Emperor that means Emperor's Champs make the impossible possible. The flulff lists GK paladins and Grand Masters being an equal match for a greater demon. Well considering to be a Paladin, you have to undergo 8 different tests of martial skill, with the last one being finding and banishing one of the 101 nastiest daemons every recorded...and Brother Captains are almost exclusively drawn from the Paladins that protected the last one to lead the Brotherhood....and Grandmasters are elevated from the rank of Brother Captain....it's impossible for them not to be incredible badasses who have slain Greater Daemons in single combat. They literally can't advance to that rank without doing it at least once, if not several times. Hm...what if the Emperor turns a GK into a saint? Nah, that's not what being a Saint is about. He turns ordinary mortals into Saints, making a point about every soul dying in his name mattering. Knights are already given a fraction of the Emperor's strength (both physical, psychic and spiritual), not to mention their minds are re-shaped and filled to the brim with ancient forbidden knowledge of the warp, on top of their punishing standards of martial exellence with the Chapters mundane and esoteric weapons and wargear. Knights are already effectively mini-Saints, and their Grandmasters are probably comparable in terms of martial skill, if not raw psychic might, to an Imperial Saint. Thawn. He just cannot die. I mean, how much more powerful do you want? He's a Perpetual, as I understand it. That's more something you are born with, rather than something the Emperor can give. (Edit: Let's not mention Draigo! ) Well Draigo is basically the best Greater Daemon of the Emperor around. Although, as is normal for Knights, they're still bound by fate, so Draigo is kept from interfering too much in Tzeentch's plans. 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Gentlemanloser Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Why don't they bring back Sensei. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281869-strength-of-a-grey-knight/#findComment-3497014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Technically, that never stopped being real. In fact, depending on how they flesh out the remaining mystery of the Emperor's origins (they've teased bits and pieces throughout the HH series), they could reveal the Sensei to be psychic Perpetuals who foresaw a time when they'd need one super-badass of their kind, as opposed to the council they currently had. Remember how in 'The Outcast Dead', we're told that all the cognoscynths (ie the alpha-plus 1 in a zillion 'can enter your dreams and remake your mental state' demi-god class psykers) are extinct? Perhaps the non-corrupt ones (ie the ones the Emperor didn't murder in the psyker wars) were the Sensei, and they forged themselves together to give birth to the Emperor. Remember, in 'Outcast Dead' we're told that evil and good super-psykers have been around and manipulating humanity since we first evolved from primates. Emps dates from IIRC Mesopotamian times at least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281869-strength-of-a-grey-knight/#findComment-3497961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Emperor dates from 8,000BCE, from Anatolia (modern Turkey); and the Sensei were his actual physical children. They were immortal, in the sense that they wouldn't die natural deaths, but could be killed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281869-strength-of-a-grey-knight/#findComment-3501489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 History To the Inquisition, particularly the Ordo Malleus, the Sensei are one of the great threats to the Imperium, the Inquisition seeing the Sensei as dangerous mutants and heretics. The Inquisition has discovered that the extremely rare negative psychic energy used in psyk-out and psycannon weaponry can be produced from rendered-down Sensei - the only other source in the galaxy is from the byproducts of the Emperor's metabolism. The Sensei have inherited great power from the Emperor. They also possess unique abilities of their own. Because they harbour none of the emotions or concepts embodied by the Chaos Powers, they are largely invisible to them, and can draw on the energies of the Warp to use their psychic powers without attracting daemons or other malicious forces of the Warp. Due to their harmonious relationship with the Warp, the Sensei are invisible to psychic senses, even to those of the Emperor. The Sensei are all naturally connected to the Star Child, in a similar way the Champions of Chaos are bonded to their Chaos Patron gods; ultimately Sensei can achieve apotheosis, disappearing into the warp and merging with the Star Child. Sensei wander throughout the galaxy. In contrast to the servants of the Emperor, Sensei are natural rebels. As well as being enemies of Chaos, Sensei are enemies of oppression. They and their followers operate as outlaw bands, and appear across the Imperium to fight against repression and injustice. In this way, they often come into conflict with the Imperium. The Imperium regards the Sensei as dangerous bandits and nihilists who, if not actually in league with Chaos, are weakening the Imperium's defence against Chaos. Because of their powers and militantly anti-authority natures, they are hunted down and killed by Imperial forces, which in turn forces the Sensei to operate as outlaws. The Sensei and the Illuminati The earliest Sensei background describes them as the literal sons of the Emperor fathered over his vast lifetime. The Sensei are also a vital part of the Illuminati's plan to save humanity through the rejuvenation of the Emperor. The Illuminati gather the Sensei and protect them from the Inquisition, preparing them for "the final war with Chaos". In truth however the Illuminati intend to sacrifice to the Emperor his sons, in the same way many millions of psykers have already been sacrificed to feed the Emperor. All of the remaining Sensei are to be offered to the Emperor as a sacrifice at the moment his will finally breaks. The Emperor will be rejuvenated, and reborn as the Sensei-Emperor to again lead his race in person. A few of the Sensei are said to turn to Chaos, becoming the Grey Sensei. Sensei as the Champions of the Star Child The Lost and the Damned describes the Sensei as the counterparts to the Champions of Chaos. In the Sensei's case their patron god is the nascent Star Child.[1][2] Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281869-strength-of-a-grey-knight/#findComment-3501519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Emperor dates from 8,000BCE, from Anatolia (modern Turkey); and the Sensei were his actual physical children. They were immortal, in the sense that they wouldn't die natural deaths, but could be killed. Sounds like Perpetuals to me. GL: Better fire up those blenders, we need more psycannon ammunition these days ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281869-strength-of-a-grey-knight/#findComment-3501666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Caloth Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Where is that quoted from? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281869-strength-of-a-grey-knight/#findComment-3501678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 GL: Better fire up those blenders, we need more psycannon ammunition these days :D Another retcon methinks. The Emperor couldn't have had *that* many children, right? ;) I'm sure the construction of Psybolts is detailed in the dex, can't remember it off hand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281869-strength-of-a-grey-knight/#findComment-3501812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 If you were 16-36 y.o. and had all the power of the Emperor but protection hadn't been invented yet, how many children would you have had? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281869-strength-of-a-grey-knight/#findComment-3502469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281869-strength-of-a-grey-knight/#findComment-3502603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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