[HH1.0] Word Bearer's Tactics

[ronin_cse]

So I'm thinking of getting either some Sons of Horus Justaren or some World Eaters Red Butchers as allies for my Word Bearers and I can't decide, obviously in addition to an HQ and a troop choice. No real reason I just really like elite terminator units. SoH are our only sworn brothers legion so I am leaning towards that, but I really like the WE's colors and of course with how awesome Betrayer was it makes me want to go that way ;).

 

Anyways between those two which do you all think would complement the Word Bearers better? I'm thinking SoH since I feel like the Gal Vorbak perform a similar role as the Red Butchers.

[NoLifeKing]

So I'm thinking of getting either some Sons of Horus Justaren or some World Eaters Red Butchers as allies for my Word Bearers and I can't decide, obviously in addition to an HQ and a troop choice. No real reason I just really like elite terminator units. SoH are our only sworn brothers legion so I am leaning towards that, but I really like the WE's colors and of course with how awesome Betrayer was it makes me want to go that way .

 

Anyways between those two which do you all think would complement the Word Bearers better? I'm thinking SoH since I feel like the Gal Vorbak perform a similar role as the Red Butchers.

Do you consider the red butchers alike to the blessed sons as in fluffy feel, or rules wise?

 

But out of those two options, i would go with Justaerin terminators because i  like the models and imho bring more tools to the table that WB don't already bring.

[ronin_cse]

 

So I'm thinking of getting either some Sons of Horus Justaren or some World Eaters Red Butchers as allies for my Word Bearers and I can't decide, obviously in addition to an HQ and a troop choice. No real reason I just really like elite terminator units. SoH are our only sworn brothers legion so I am leaning towards that, but I really like the WE's colors and of course with how awesome Betrayer was it makes me want to go that way .

 

Anyways between those two which do you all think would complement the Word Bearers better? I'm thinking SoH since I feel like the Gal Vorbak perform a similar role as the Red Butchers.

Do you consider the red butchers alike to the blessed sons as in fluffy feel, or rules wise?

 

But out of those two options, i would go with Justaerin terminators because i  like the models and imho bring more tools to the table that WB don't already bring.

 

 

I meant rules wise. In the fluff the Gal Vorbak are still kind of in control of their actions whereas the Red Butchers are described as being totally out of their minds. Although even in the fluff they still probably perform similar roles.

[NoLifeKing]

Agreed, we have enough rage filled muscle on the field in the form of gal vorbak, so my vote goes absolutely for the Justaerin

[Withershadow]

I would say Justaerin, because they have good shooting and are a scoring unit, on top of being melee badasses.

[Bosswoodfox]

Are summoned daemons scoring units, denial units, nothing and die at the end of the game?  Apologies if this is mentioned here already but I couldn't find it.

 

Thank you.

[NoLifeKing]

If you summon units by malefic, they sadly don't come with a battlefield role such as troop, therefore aren't able to score, unless you play some mission where  for example infantry count as scoring units or something similar. 

They are counted as denial units however, as in age of darkness games, everything is counted as denial units, with few exceptions.

So if you conjure a group of bloodletters, they are not scoring, but they do deny objectives.

Edited April 11, 2017 by NoLifeKing

[Bosswoodfox]

If you summon units by malefic, they sadly don't come with a battlefield role such as troop, therefore aren't able to score, unless you play some mission where  for example infantry count as scoring units or something similar. 

 

They are counted as denial units however, as in age of darkness games, everything is counted as denial units, with few exceptions.

 

So if you conjure a group of bloodletters, they are not scoring, but they do deny objectives.

Cool, so far I've met a couple people with this opinion and a couple that say they can't.

 

The only time it's addressed is this? 

 

http://imgur.com/a/kXDwT

 

Apparently not everyone agrees and it's an important piece so I'm surprised there isn't clarification of "units taken as troop choices".

 

Thanks for your input!

[Bosswoodfox]

I'd just run 2 15 man Ashen circle squads and commit to going for a table wipe/area denial.

 

Zardu can also summon cheap daemon allies that can score (I recommend horrors because they're a psyker "battery" too).

Summoning this post from the depths.

 

Maybe the rule changed since this post, or this demonstrates lack of agreement on the subject.

Again I'm suprised given the importance of scoring units in 30k if there isn't actually a clear answer here.

[NoLifeKing]

Well... when the phrase is "units TAKEN as troops choice", there really is no questioning it or need for clarification.

Units you take into your army list when you build your army, are TAKEN as troop choice and fill a troop slot in your force organization chart.
Where as units conjured through malefic powers don't come with a battlefield role like, troops, elite, heavy support etc.

Units summoned via malefic therefore cannot score, at least not by being troops battlefield role, which they do not have when summoned. 

who ever claims that zardu layaks summoning provides you with scoring units, is obviously mistaken.

Edit: This misconception is coming from the far future of 40k environment where everything scores, and so spam summoned daemons are used for scoring. But same does not apply to age of darkness where scoring units are limited to troops, units with implacable advance and certain mission special rule provided moments where for example, tanks are counted as scoring units.

Edited April 12, 2017 by NoLifeKing

[Bosswoodfox]

Ok thanks for the follow up!  I would be inclined to agree with your analysis of the wording of the rule. Also I would say the points price paid to get the summoned unit on the table is fair without adding on that they score.

 

Another question: Do they award kill points to the opponent if destroyed, and do you receive kill points when they destroy a unit.  I'm guessing Yes and Yes?

[NoLifeKing]

 

Another question: Do they award kill points to the opponent if destroyed, and do you receive kill points when they destroy a unit.  I'm guessing Yes and Yes?

Yes, they do, for missions and objectives that tell you to count the units destroyed by you or your opponent, they are considered "kill points" as you say.

 

edit: Also yes, units destroyed by them are also adding to your kill point tally.

Edited April 12, 2017 by NoLifeKing

[BloodTzar]

Hello guys,

 

 I am currently choosing in-between UM-WB (I will have BA+SoH 30k as well) going trough all the guides possible. Currently I am keen on WB since they are very close to my BA scheme with some flavour. Moreover I like what they have to offer a diversity from BA force, that either in 40k or 30k is fast and jumppack-centric. 

 

 I would like to understand what are the key components of WB army to make it work? What should I do focus on? Basically I would love to get somehow fluffy, yet to build army that is  different to BA (fast) 

 

I have an idea in my head where I would love to see WB force build around Gol Vorkbak, 2xLeviathans probably all in pods. Withno idea about the rest, what should form good WB army. Should I focus on elites getting as much ashen circle as possible, or should I get as much infantry as possible?

 

Moreover, I wonder if I have to go with demons or not? Since WB have 30k access to them, how broken a Be'lakor can be in 30k games etc? What other deamons I need to get? Is it possible to have WB army w/out 40k deamons or I would just loose key component of army?

 

Lastly, I would like to understand how good is Logar? It seems he is not the beat stick, unless you "chain-buff"(self buffs+army wide buffs from deamons) him with all the psychic powers possible. What are your experience with him?

 

Thank you

~BT

 

PS. Why there is a some sort of consensus that Word Bearers are "the worst" legion out there? I mean no one seems like WB really ...

Edited April 17, 2017 by BloodTzar

[Argel Tal]

On a basic note, the WB legion rule are okay but not that good. Imo they will just prevent you from buying vexilla and making you quite reliable on the morale aspect of the game compare to other standard legions. The limitation are not that bad cause at higher point games you will have all your HQ slots full.

 

For the equipment, the tainted weapon is very meh. I would only consider it on very specific occasions if you want a fun combo. 

 

The burning lore is quite good to get a good amount of little psychers and lots of PD.

 

Currently I'd say that you have 2 ways of playing Word Bearers: either you go with the Last of the Serrated Sun rite of war to get a strong drop pod army with Gal Vorbaks, support squads, vets, seekers, leviathan and a gunline behind it with rapiers, sicaran, artillery, mortis... and a LOW like Lorgar or a Knight, a glaive... This is my personal favorite cause it's very thematic and aggressive style with a decent firing line on the opposite of standard Orbital Assault lists. 

 

OR

 

go for the daemon side of the Force, running the Dark Brethren RoW if you have Lorgar on the army (but it restricts you to one heavy support  ) or if you play another LOW, you can take Zardu or Erebus (Zardu seems better to me for his summoning ability and little buffs with his stick). Max out the Gal Vorbak squad in a Spartan with all you goodies, then spend some points on legion stuff and ally with a strong daemon detachment with Kairos/Duc or Belakor or if you want to remain cheap some Heralds. On troops some horros and maybe a flying prince for support and you have your ally side depending on what synergies well with you legion list.

This list has a lot of pyschic potential which is quite a niche in 30K due to the average absence of psychers which means not a lot of denials capability depending of your local meta if you don't face some TS orTalons list you will be quite dominant on that side. This list is quite strong but mainly due to the fact that daemon are already a good choice from 40k which imo breaks a bit the balance of the meta. It's almost like you play 40k with some 30k flavor vs 30k.

Considering Lorgar (unless you restrain yourself always take the lvl3 upgrade), he is quite good with the precog spell making him a very reliable beatstick and some very good versatility with the ability to chose your power depending on the situation instead of rollling for them. Put him in a Gal Vorbak/terminators/BladeSlave squad with some transport and charge ahead. You can also try to play him as a big tank to put in front of a support squad in a pod which can be quite fun: reroll to hit rolls for plasma with a primarch to tank all damages and some psychic tricks you can have with telekinesis.  

 

For the ashen circle, they just suck   it's too bad cause the models are freaking amazing but they are way too expensive for what they bring and they can't even be joined by an IC to make them decent in mele. If you want to play them, take them in squad of 5 with a phosphex and some axes but they are already a 200 pts units for 5 marines which most of the time will do nothing. Just run them as assault marines proxy with dark chanelling 

[Jimm]

Gal vorbak with a Chaplin is solid from a Spartan, change the chap to Layak and its even better than add Lorgar for a nasty death star.

 

With pods it gets a little harder as you can't support the gvb with hq's but bursting out of dread claws still works well. Problem I always find with this is working a good way to utilise Lorgar and hqs. Usually il go Layak+blade slaves and Lorgar in a dreadclaw or Lorgar with tart command squad.

 

With ashen circle they look cool but are prob one of the worst legion special squads out there. Generally my elite slots are vets and Contemptors and occasionally 1 or 2 mhara gal for themed games, just wish they were cheaper :(

 

As for daemons, cool fluffy allies but you either limit yourself to 1 hs for the row or don't take Lorgar and use layak/Erebus as your warlord. They can be really effective if used aggressivly so to divert from your marines. Be'lakor is awesome but if you run him and Lorgar as I have in the past don't be surprised when you get called names!

 

Lastly Lorgar, he's an odd ball for sure. You always pick precognition and then what ever else you fancy but I've had win 1v1 vs papa smurf, fulgrim, Mort and curz so he can hold own if you roll well and get your powers off. Equally he's died to volkite and Terminators when I didn't get his powers off so hes bang or bust.

 

As for power ranking Wb are probably middle of the pack but depends who you ask and what their meta is like. Gvb are a bargain for the price, ashen circle are bad, our hq get biomancy (don't be the guy to roll for invis) we get some nice but not amazing legion rules, Lorgar buffs well as does Layak. So got a lot of perks and few negatives

[BloodTzar]

Thank you very much for the summary!!!

 

I think you made it very clear to me what should I aim for and what to stay away, I think I will get the Ashen Circle just for the looks. Moreover I think Ill go for the DP madness, yet I am tempted to try all psyker (Logar+Ba'lekor) 

On the other hand what is the general consensus about  following;

 

• Mhara Gal? I mean I like the model, but does it work on the table or its just a point trap with all the fancy rules?
• Terminators vs. Gal Vorbak?
• Since WB have such a hard time in heavy slot what do you prefer?
• Best troop choice for WB to benefit from the DC and Legion trait? I think 20 man tac with additional CC? What is your choice?
• WB and Librarians? I know they are expensive, however I got my hands on the limited model therefore I would love to make a use of it

 

Thank you in advance!

~BT 

 

PS. going trough rules, I wonder how can Gal Vorbak take Spartan and Mhara Gal a pod? 

Edited April 17, 2017 by BloodTzar

[unerde]

Gal Vorbak can take a Spartan per Heavy Support Slot. Mhara Gal cannot take a Pod, bit he could deep strike.

[Argel Tal]

The Mhara Gal is also a bit too expensive and IMO fits in between the mediocre and decent category, whereas Ashen Circle are just bad. It can bring some surprise with the ability to teleport through impassible but be careful to remain far from your other daemons and psychers. 

 

They don't have the same purpose, termis can have more customization to fit a specific role and can score, whereas GV are dedicated to infantry slaughter and are quite terrific on the charge. The Dark Martyr with power fist is a beast on himself.

 

If you run dark brethren, I'd go for a taxi for the Gal Vorbaks == Spartan. If not you got plenty of good choices in HS. Chose according to the ones you like the most and synergise well with the rest of the army. 

 

Never tried that, find it too risky to lose a scoring unit on a roll of a 6. But yes, I guess it can be quite effective on large power armor mele unit like assault marines or tac. Not sure it's worth it for termis cause you already have an invulnerable save of you roll daemon. Don't forget to combine this with cursed earth for a juicy 4++

 

Liby are still expensive especially when you consider that you can have burnring lore on 4 HQ choices so it's up to you if you think that you really need more PD.

[BloodTzar]

Thank you once again for the clarification!!!

 

Few more I struggle with;

Mhara Gal being able to deep strike due to demon rule ?

Burning lore on 4HQs? Isn't there limit 3?

 

Any lists you run for both  Serrated Sun rite or Dark Brethren RoW ?
 

~BT

[Argel Tal]

Nope unless you have a specific pod for him with a dedicated ROW I don't think you can DS him. 

 

I meant you have 4 HQ choices that can take the burning lore: centu, chap, diab and prateor 

 

What do you mean ? What a list with one of these ROW looks like ? 

[BloodTzar]

I see ... thank you!

 

I mean if you have run something for both RoW and it had worked, some example lists that I could get inspired by. 

[Jimm]

Mhara are hit and miss. My groups hates my ones which usually do alright but not sure why people fear them so much.

Best utilisation for them I've found is making heavy supports to move from failed moral checks thanks to the plasma canon, cracks me up every time it works. Other than that I've had fun chasing down psykers and the firing plasma at the contents of freshly popped Spartans.

 

As for general tips.

-Start with Layak, add gal vorbak enjoy.

-Biomancy praetors can be hilarious or a major let down

-Dark channeling can be amazing or can loose you the game

-Lorgar is awesome... Most of the time

-Ignore cover lc or plasma support squads loose you friends but just blame Lorgar for that!

[Argel Tal]

@Blood it really depends on what size of game you want to play ^^ as I said I stopped playing with daemons ally cause it felt too unbalanced to me to get so much PD with no way to really counter it but that's just me ^^ 

 

For the serrated sun, for my 2,5k/3k list I have 2 GV squads, one support or seeker, 1/2 vets and one dreadcalw for zardu and the blade slave with a burning lore guy and the rest of the points went for 2x2 quad mortars, sicaran and venator for 3k, I add Lorgar. I think you could swap one mortar for one mortis to get some AA but my meta is not fan of flyers but yo can still it some flying stuff with the sheer loads of shots from the sicaran and the shatter shells on the mortar. 

[BloodTzar]

Thank you for the input!

 

Well I think I should go trough few WB lists to get inspired, overall its the 30k versatility is love-n-hate thing for me since you can go for almost everything with every legion. 

 

EDIT:

 

Few things that I wonder if are worth;

 

• Storm Eagle with 20 tacticals?
• Caestus Assault ram with 10 termies/GV
• that Claw-HUGE-drop pod with 20 tacticals

I think 20 tacticals are just way strong under WB rules did you guys run them in such mass?

 

Another thing I would like to know your opinion;

• 2xLeviathan in DP vs. 2xMhara Gal  (i guess they would need to get DreadClaws)

I think both cost about the same, while having almost the same survivability (almost-Leviathan being better) did anyone used them in mass?

 

Thank you!

~BT

Edited April 20, 2017 by BloodTzar

[NoLifeKing]

Thank you for the input!

 

Well I think I should go trough few WB lists to get inspired, overall its the 30k versatility is love-n-hate thing for me since you can go for almost everything with every legion. 

 

EDIT:

 

Few things that I wonder if are worth;

 

• Storm Eagle with 20 tacticals?
• Caestus Assault ram with 10 termies/GV
• that Claw-HUGE-drop pod with 20 tacticals

I think 20 tacticals are just way strong under WB rules did you guys run them in such mass?

 

Another thing I would like to know your opinion;

• 2xLeviathan in DP vs. 2xMhara Gal  (i guess they would need to get DreadClaws)

I think both cost about the same, while having almost the same survivability (almost-Leviathan being better) did anyone used them in mass?

 

Thank you!

~BT

I have played 20 man tac squads in the past with and i have to say that i am pleased with them, but having more than 1 you really need a transport for them.

In my experience a 20man tact squad is best made CC oriented, with whole squad throwing down their bolters and grabbing the chainsword and have the diabolist/Kor Phaeron/Erebus/Zardu(i spit on this model and its very existance disgusts me) Layak perform a prebattle ritual and gift them with the dark channeling. 

 

I have only ever played 1 of either variation of those dread nought at any given time. And both are decent, but i do have to say that leviathan in most cases takes the cake in that comparison, simply because there is no proper way to transport Mhara Gal aside from kharybdis claw. So most of the time Mhara Gal has to footslog, and unless your army is heavy on armor, it will just get shot. Leviathan has a reliable transport in the form of dreadnought DP, and in general with his 4++ save and amazing weaponry, leviathan simply is the better way to go.

 

I have however experiemented on a hilarious combo of Forewarned and grimoired Mhara Gal for 2++ save, priceless...

 

edit: I hate Zardu Layak, I just have the need to express this feeling.

Edited April 20, 2017 by NoLifeKing