Verity Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Was he like that, in the beginning? I was sure the lack of lucidity was something that grew with time, starting from "Every now and again" and ending how you phrased it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3502266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Curze was fine when he was picked up. His world was exactly what that Tyrant (the Emperor) wanted for humanity. Docile, obedient, productive, quiet, and Curze made that happen. He just went off the rails a bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3502269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 About Curze the eating people, I thinks it's stated in the old and good Index Astartes, not something A D-B make up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3502270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Considering that the Emperor also gave Angron a Legion, plus the whole "Thunder Warriors" kerfluffle, I think it's safe to say He felt His Imperium needed butchers as well as shepherds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3502271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 And its fine, if humans didnt fill themselves up with chemical's thanks to our wonderful stewardship of this planet, I am sure we could be on the menu without any real damage... EDIT: Further to Wades point, we KNOW that to be the case from Massacre. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3502272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Self fulfilling prophecies fail to convince me. Curze was a depressed lunatic on his better days and a rabid thing on the others. Sanguinius had visions too and didn't simply accept their inevitability. And 'babies' isn't that inaccurate. It's one thing to be idealistic, nothing wrong with it on a principle. It's another not to accept that hipocrisies happen throughout life and forgo doing one's part to make things right. What I mean is, Curze used the Emperor's goals to justify him keeping his bloodshed approach. Sanguinius' visions were a lot nicer than Kurze's though. He didn't see all the creepy stuff that I guess the Emperor wanted Kurze to have for some ill-defined, highly vague plot element that will never be revealed due to lack of existence. Heres how I think of it. Sanguinius's saw the future in which mankind might actually defeat Horus/Chaos and achieve the Emperor's vision led by Sanguinius, should he not fight Horus at Terra. Sanguinius also saw himself fighting Horus, making an opening for which the Emperor used to obliterate Horus but die in the process. Kurze only ever saw himself dying to M'Shen. No bright side to fulfill. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3502274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Actually, didn't "Blood Reaver" say Talos's visions were caused by his body being incompatible with the gene seed, and suggest that Curze's were likewise born out of his own biological instability? Emps may not have intended for his VIII Primarch to be a doom saying seer at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3502280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Im not saying the Emperor shouldn't have 'a last straw' option available to him and the Imperium to maintain control, what I am saying is that Angron and Kurze need to be expanded on where we see them doing things like attending mission planning sessions, prepping their war gear, discussing philosophy coherently without pitching a fit or being creepy, briefing their men, etc. You know just plain, ordinary Primarch stuff like Guilliman sitting at a desk. With Kurze and Angron I don't honestly believe they could physically do it. Like Primarch Agorophobia and ADHD Edit: Whoops, unintentional holocaust reference removed... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3502283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Because when he was first found, Curze was lucid. He at least acted normal. He was cold, logical and precise. He applied pressure exactly where it was needed. Once upon a time, he wouldn't have been that different from the Lion in personality, or Corax in methods of warfare. But where the Lion would mostly succeed in not becoming the Beast, Curze failed. Where Corax would continue to apply precision and control, Curze would lose it. And eventually, we would see a Primarch who had lost his Humanity. As for eating, why do Horus and Guilliman drink wine? Why did Russ drink mead? To be honest, I think that somewhere deep down, Curze acknowledged that he had no teacher. And as a result, his genetics prompted him to eat the dead, so he could absorb their instincts and memories. And it was more than likely from this source that his darker instincts were created and developed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3502301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Why do Horus and Guilliman drink wine? Sanguinus does not drink....wine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3502312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Highlander Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 He cared not. He turned against his own sons. The Emperor started a galaxy wide war -that means billions of dead people- just because you. War means civilian casualties, property destruction, beat, murder. In his case also tiranny, because was to establish a dictatorship -his own. Then some of his sons were going totenkopf nuts and he don't cared much. He send a drunk -one of his sons- to take another one -Magnus- just because he was trying to give him some advice about the treachery. And was the Emperor's fault for not explaining the perils of what he was doing in Terra to Magnus, but who cares, just go and kill your brother, Russ, because he loves me so much that he has disobeyed me in order to give me advice about how my favourite son is going to betray me. Also pissing off Angron, Curze and Perturabo for no reason. Not forget to utterly killing/expunge the two missing brothers. The Emperor was a jerk, a terrible father, a tyrant, and he deserves well his fate in the Golden Throne. :D He wanted to unite the human race so that no human may fear the alien ever again, and so that humanity could become rulers of the galaxy. He couldn't give less off a toss about making himself ruler, as he said in First Heretic, "It's not my Imperium!". He sent Russ to bding back Magnus, because Magnus's warning about Horus caused widespread destruction on Terra by letting loose warp energy. Russ never wanted ( or was ordered ) to kill him, Horus lied to Russ and said Magnus had to die. He was an amazing father, but he realised he couldn't alliw his sons to break his rules, because he had to be unwavering and righteous. And anyone who says Russ was a drunk will face a plethora of axe blades. He liked mjod, but he wasn't a drunk, as his enemies learnt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3504971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 He cared not. He turned against his own sons. The Emperor started a galaxy wide war -that means billions of dead people- just because you. War means civilian casualties, property destruction, beat, murder. In his case also tiranny, because was to establish a dictatorship -his own. Then some of his sons were going totenkopf nuts and he don't cared much. He send a drunk -one of his sons- to take another one -Magnus- just because he was trying to give him some advice about the treachery. And was the Emperor's fault for not explaining the perils of what he was doing in Terra to Magnus, but who cares, just go and kill your brother, Russ, because he loves me so much that he has disobeyed me in order to give me advice about how my favourite son is going to betray me. Also pissing off Angron, Curze and Perturabo for no reason. Not forget to utterly killing/expunge the two missing brothers. The Emperor was a jerk, a terrible father, a tyrant, and he deserves well his fate in the Golden Throne. He was an amazing father, but he realised he couldn't alliw his sons to break his rules, because he had to be unwavering and righteous. Thats plainly false. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3504978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 On the other coin, he tore Angron away from his only true family instead of trying to save it and shoved him off to his sons and went "You deal with him. Don't care what you do, I want a Primarch and he will serve, whether he wants to or not." When Angron and Curze began slaughtering worlds, he did nothing. When Curze attacked Dorn and destroyed Nostramo, the Emperor did nothing more than a "Comeback to Terra whenever you feel like it." The Emperor as a man is neutral. He is not good. He isn't bad. He is both. And neither. But as a parent, he failed. Utterly. He picked favorites. He allowed some to do just whatever while placing restrictions on the rest. He even punished one son for just being too slow in bringing worlds to compliance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3504987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Highlander Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 On the other coin, he tore Angron away from his only true family instead of trying to save it and shoved him off to his sons and went "You deal with him. Don't care what you do, I want a Primarch and he will serve, whether he wants to or not." When Angron and Curze began slaughtering worlds, he did nothing. When Curze attacked Dorn and destroyed Nostramo, the Emperor did nothing more than a "Comeback to Terra whenever you feel like it." The Emperor as a man is neutral. He is not good. He isn't bad. He is both. And neither. But as a parent, he failed. Utterly. He picked favorites. He allowed some to do just whatever while placing restrictions on the rest. He even punished one son for just being too slow in bringing worlds to compliance. No he punished him for trying to make Him into a god, which he made illegal Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3505375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 No, read it again. His biggest complaint was that Lorgar had command of the second largest Legion and yet he had the slowest growing lists of compliances. The Lectitio Divinatus was brought up as a point because that was why Lorgar was moving so slow. So when you look it at, it's actually both with being slow being the reason for censure while religion is the reason for being slow. No where do we even once see the Lectitio Divinatus being put down as illegal even though we know it persisted before Lorgar and after Monarchia. That is the only instance we see the Emperor do something other than just say he isn't a god. But even if we ignored Lorgar, you still get Angron. You get Perturabo whose sons are constantly being thrown into the cannon fodder. You get Curze who is allowed to get away with genocide-for-kicks-and-giggles. And the list goes on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3505376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Lorgar is punished for worshipping the Emperor as god. Meanwhile, he sets up the Ad Mech to worship his gold plated backside as the Omnissiah avatar of THEIR machine god. "Consistency is the hobgoblin of tiny minds." The Emperor Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3505845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 I am hoping against hope actually that ADB saves the Emperor through Master of Mankind. As it is, He (The Emperor) is really an inconsistent and fail happy character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3505866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 And all this could've been avoided if the Emperor in his infinite and 30000 year existences worth of wisdom chose instead to sit down with his 18 boys and say " im going home to sort out my magic throne/interdimensional gateway before the poop really hits the fan. Coz if I don't my sons all this won't be yours and we'll be fighting for 10,000 years. That ok with you? I mean sure I could ask magnus to come home and help and in the meanwhile angron please fight xenos and only xenos. Preferabley big ones and lorgar.. look I told the mech they could so just get a shuffle on.. by the way see off erebus and kor pharon they look a bit shifty." But he didnt. And as such wevwill never know what happens when Angron gets the chance to roundhouse a hive tyrant and curze couldve been quite pleasent to get on with Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3505868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyMonkey Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 I'm wondering if the Emperor purposefully didn't reveal the Webway Gate project for fear that it would draw the attention of the Chaos Gods. However, in the absence of confirmation of that idea, I totally agree with helterskelter. There are so many small things he could have done that would have averted many things. As said before, he could have told his sons, especially Magnus and Horus about the Webway Project and why he was hiding himself under the Himalayans. He could have sat Lorgar down and told him that being worshipped got in the way of the Word Bearer's true purpose, and that if they really wanted to please him and worship him, they should do it by conquering worlds and letting faith, if it was to destined to grow, grow organically. Heck, I'm pretty sure that if the Emperor told Lorgar that conquering worlds was the number one way to worship the Emperor, they'd conquer more worlds than the Ultramarines in no time. He could have revealed the existence of malevolent warp entities but emphasize that they were the byproduct of human emotion and nothing to be feared if the Astartes steeled themselves ahead of time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3505874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 +Word Bearers, hear me well. You, among all my Legions, are guilty of failure. You number more warriors than any other, excepting the XIII. Yet your conquests are the slowest, and your victories ring hollow.+ It hurt too much to look directly at the figure of white-gold light, haloed by coruscating psychic fire, telling them with words of fire that all their lives had been wasted. +You linger on compliant worlds for years after final victory, driving the populace into the worship into the worship of false faith, seeding cults of the naive and the deceived, erecting monuments to lies. All you have done in the Great Crusade is for naught. While all others succeeded and bring prosperity to the Imperium, you alone have failed me.+ ---The First Heretic, page 61(Bold is actual lettering) This had been going on for years and apparently, the Word Bearers had made no secret of it. Yet the Emperor tolerated it. Until, it affected their progress in bringing worlds to compliance. We know that when Angron first began implanting the Butcher's Nails, he was told early on to stop. Obviously we know the lack of repercussions when Angron continued the implantation. But we have no record of this with Lorgar. Instead, what we have suggests that the Emperor tolerated the Lectitio Divinatus until it compromised the integrity of his Crusade. We know a Legion helping rebuild a planet's infrastructure isn't a problem. The XIII do it all the time. We know the Lectitio Divinatus isn't illegal. A Titan Princeps was known by the command crew to be a member of the fledgling cult and nothing was done to him. Nathaniel Garro( a Terran who fought under the Emperor himself) merely gave a look of disdain when he found out his huscarl was a member. And eventually joined in the worship(if the end of The Flight of the Eisenstein is anything to go by) and went on to serve directly under Malcador the Sigilite. But when these two came together and caused entire Expedition Fleets to linger for years at a given spot, then they became problems. Instead of nipping it in the butt when it first popped up, the Emperor waited until it became a problem, an inconvenience if you will, for His plans for the Imperium of Man. If it was merely a matter of religion, that wouldn't have required mention of "You are being too slow and you need to pick up the pace." The Emperor could have stopped just the page earlier when he was telling Lorgar that he was just spreading a false faith and needed to stop. But He made a point to bring up the fact that they were moving to slow for his liking. When you have 40,000 years of living among people, you learn the power of words and a "mistake" like that is either a wide open glance at the real reason behind the lecture, or it is not a mistake at all and is instead a calculated needle of truth hidden in a haystack of excuses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3505906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Agreed, the Word Bearers simply didnt butcher fast enough, the faith item was a side show. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3505929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Nowhere did it say that was the only warning or censure the Word Bearers ever got. To the contrary, it instilled within me the sense that this was the result of a last straw, the final event in a strong of events. We also know the Lectitio Divinatus was illegal. That Titan pilot kept it under wraps, but when a peer found out about it he confronted him, saying it would cost him his career. Grounds for instant firing. Groups on ships met in secret and suffered raids. It was definitely an illegal belief, and any believers were considered outlaws. Just because we saw circumstances of the regular people not finding much problem with it doesn't mean it wasn't illegal. If I pirated something and my friends were okay with it, that doesn't mean it becomes legal. Read what the Emperor says. You linger, spreading false faith, deception and lies, while all others spread prosperity. Now think about the location. The Emperor made the Legion stop, backtrack and watch an icon of their achievements be destroyed. You do that to stop a behavior, not galvanize one. The Word Bearers weren't being chewed out for being slow, they were being chewed out because of their pushing of religious beliefs onto the compliant. Being slow was clearly undesirable, but was also being spoken of as a symptom rather than the root cause. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3506095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 If they had not been slow however, would it have come to a head? I think thats the main point. Curze, Angron, where was their Monarchia? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3506098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Exactly. Where was their Monarchia? What world could the Emperor use as an example, by burning down their greatest achievement? What world did those two twist so utterly until they became a mirror image of that which the Emperor hated most of all, religion? Curze and Angron had unorthodox ways that the Emperor wished them to stop, such as the Nails and beating up a better son, but ultimately they were what the Emperor wanted of them. Both Legions were given Terran Unification events that highlighted those aspects that would later define them, and with each the Emperor showed favor. If the Word Bearers had not gone so slow, would things have come to a head? Maybe not. If they had conquered and moved on, conquered and moved on, they'd have no time to linger around, "seeding cults of the naive and deceived." They'd be too busy to pen and spread the Lectitio Divinatus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3506111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 +Word Bearers, hear me well. You, among all my Legions, are guilty of failure. "Among all your remaining Legions, Dad." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282190-night-lords-fall/page/2/#findComment-3506124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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