Grim Dog Studios Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Hi all, I've been attempting to build a heresy-era SW force but I'm really struggling with making a decent 2000 point list, I can't currently tell you what it will be going up against as I don't actually play at the moment! The current list I've got so far is pretty boring and generic, so any help would be really appreciated! HQ LEGION PRAETOR - 140 - PARAGON BLADE (MASTER CRAFTED) LEGION COMMAND SQUAD - 230 X5 - 4X POWER WEAPON - 1X POWER FIST - RHINO LEGION CENTURION - 125 - CONSUL LIBRARIAN - ARTIFICER ARMOUR - TWO LEVELS OF PSYCHIC MASTERY ELITES LEGION VETERAN TACTICAL SQUAD - 275 X10 - LEGION VEXILLA - 2x MELTA GUN - COMBI-WEAPON (MELTA) - POWERFIST - ARTIFICER ARMOUR - OUTFLANK TROOPS LEGION TACTICAL SQUAD - 255 - ADDITIONAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPON - LEGION VEXILLA - COMBI-WEAPON - POWERFIST - MELTA BOMBS - ARTIFICER ARMOUR - RHINO LEGION TACTICAL SQUAD - 255 - ADDITIONAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPON - LEGION VEXILLA - COMBI-WEAPON - POWERFIST - MELTA BOMBS - ARTIFICER ARMOUR - RHINO LEGION TACTICAL SQUAD - 220 - ADDITIONAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPON - LEGION VEXILLA - COMBI-WEAPON - POWERFIST - MELTA BOMBS - ARTIFICER ARMOUR HEAVY SUPPORT LEGION HEAVY SUPPORT SQUAD - 290 X10 - MISSILE LAUNCHERS - AURGURY SCANNER LEGION PREDATOR SQUADRON - 210 X2 - HEAVY BOLTERS - COMBI-BOLTERS I feel like I don't have enough troops, and that my troops seem to cost a fair bit. I am in dire need of some help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 I'm still feeling my way into Legion list building, so take my suggestions with a big grain of salt. I believe that digital weapons work out to more hits on average than master crafting for the same price (except in situations when you need 5+ to hit), but maybe someone else can correct me. No invulnerable save on him means he's dead meat the minute he steps into any serious melee, and you haven't given him much of any effective shooting weapons. Either give him what he needs to survive in melee or don't take him. Your veteran squad seems expensive and iffy. I think they are your main form of dealing with AV14 vehicles, and without a transport/using only outflank, you have to hope that you come in on the right board edge and that the enemy has positioned their vehicle close enough that you can nail it. Otherwise, your short range and short movement will keep these troops from doing anything effective. A little torn on what to suggest for your troops. While I get what you're trying to do, make your tactical squads reflect Grey Hunters with Wolf Guard pack leaders, I just don't think that Legion Tacticals are all that great in melee even with the extra CCW, and they can't assault out of the Rhino - so they're probably walking anyway (with the Rhino as a LoS blocker), or shooting (and getting shot at) after they get out. For the 'wolf guard' in there, I think you've spent waaaaaaay too many points on upgrades for him. Would you ever spend 40 points on gear for your wolf guard pack leaders in 40k? I normally toss mine a power sword, combimelta, and send them on their way with just 15 points of gear. Assuming you decide to keep them as they are, I would at least drop the meltabombs. They will largely only be effective against Land Raiders/Spartans where they can actually get a pen where your 3 attacks on the charge with a power fist can't. I may be wrong, but I also do not think you can 'exchange your bolter for one of the following' to get both a combiweapon AND a power fist. ETA: I was wrong, page 1 of the errata allows the Sergeant to exchange his bolter and/or their bolt pistol. May just be personal preference, but I would split up that squad of 10 heavy weapons legionaires. Having them grouped together makes them one large target, while their missiles can end up being overkill (10 missiles to kill a single rhino? What if they have two rhinos that both need to die this turn?). Split them up so that if, say, you take 6 wounds on a squad, you only have 5 guys who can actually die. The other 5 guys in the second squad stay safe. If you don't do that, then maybe consider splitting your Predators up, or changing them out for something else. I'm not sure that they have a very good role to fill here. You will already have a lot of bolter fire from your marines, so the heavy bolters/combibolters on them are a little superfluous, and your 10 missile launchers fulfill anti-light armor, anti-MC, and anti-horde (with frag), so the anti-light-armor that their autocannons provide is also superfluous. Squadroned vehicles are also not too great, as it suffers from the same thing I just explained above - any damage over and above what is needed to kill the first one splashes onto the next, and it forces you to concentrate firepower when one tank could do the job. Maybe consider dropping the Veteran squad (your Command Squad can pose as your Wolf Guard Bodyguard?), splitting the heavy weapons into a squad with 5 lascannons (for anti-heavy vehicle duties?), and another squad with 5 missile launchers (with flakk, you currently have no anti-air?). Maybe a power weapon and artificer armor only on your tactical squad leaders, to still give them that Wolf Guard flavor without spending quite as many points on them (a power axe could still give them AP2 attacks and is very Wolfy. It also gives you 3 attacks base and 4 on the charge when combined with a bolt pistol. You might consider keeping the melta bombs on them if you go this route. It will still save you 15 points per squad by dropping the power fist/combi-weapon for a power axe). If you're trying to keep your Praetor cheap, then drop the Master Crafting on the Paragon Blade and at least get him a Refractor field, if not an Iron Halo. But as you've outfitted him, I don't think he's even worth taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Dog Studios Posted October 27, 2013 Author Share Posted October 27, 2013 Thanks for the quick reply! Okay, I tried re-writing the list so its at about 1500 points, whilst also taking into account your suggestions because of money reasons at the moment :( I dropped the veteran squad, after what you said about the outflank. They could end up being a major waste of points if they were to show up on the wrong side of the field. With the tacticals, I took into account the cost of the sergeants and bumped them down a bit, however I kept the additional CCWs for two squads as they are already modelled like that. I dropped one guy in the heavy support squad to accommodate for the points and the flakk missiles upgrade. I also upped my praetor a bit seen as he was pretty iffy to begin with. Heres the list now! HQ LEGION PRAETOR - 160 - PARAGON BLADE - COMBI-WEAPON - IRON HALO LEGION COMMAND SQUAD - 230 X5 - 4X POWER WEAPON - 1X POWER FIST - RHINO LEGION CENTURION - 125 - CONSUL LIBRARIAN - ARTIFICER ARMOUR - TWO LEVELS OF PSYCHIC MASTERY TROOPS LEGION TACTICAL SQUAD - 245 - ADDITIONAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPON - LEGION VEXILLA - POWERFIST - MELTA BOMBS - ARTIFICER ARMOUR - RHINO LEGION TACTICAL SQUAD - 240 - ADDITIONAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPON - LEGION VEXILLA - POWER WEAPON - MELTA BOMBS - ARTIFICER ARMOUR - RHINO LEGION TACTICAL SQUAD - 185 - LEGION VEXILLA - POWER WEAPON - MELTA BOMBS - ARTIFICER ARMOUR HEAVY SUPPORT LEGION HEAVY SUPPORT SQUAD - 310 x9 - MISSILE LAUNCHERS - FLAKK MISSILES - AUGURY SCANNER I think I have 5 points to spare here. If i screwed up, please tell me! xD When I eventually get the chance to upgrade it to about 2000 points, I was thinking of possibly adding a terminator squad along with a LR Phobos. Could possibly drop the command squad here in favour of a terminator armoured command squad and then use the points for something else too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 I think your army still lacks one vital ingredient, and that is a way to reliably deal with AV14. Let's take a look at the core of your force. Praetor Paragon Blade, Iron Halo 150 Consul Librarian, Mastery Level 2, Artificer Armor 125 Tactical Squad Additional CCWs, Vexilla, Power Axe, Melta Bombs, Artificer Armor 205 Rhino 35 Tactical Squad Additional CCWs, Vexilla, Power Axe, Melta Bombs, Artificer Armor 205 Rhino 35 So, now we're up to 755, and we've fulfilled our two troops choices. You mention that some of these guys are already built, so if you've got power fists instead of power axes, no big deal I guess. Now we have several jobs we need to think about: 1: Anti-tank 2: Anti-transport 3: Anti-flyer 4: Anti-MC/TEQ 5: Anti-infantry 5 is already well handled by your basic troops. What your guys don't mop up with Fury of the Legion, they've got the CCWs to pressure in assault. This leaves us with the other four jobs. Anti-transport and anti-flyer can be mixed into one by a squad of heavy weapons troops with missile launchers and flakk. I'm not sure if it is the absolute best way to handle it, but I get the vibe that you want some guys with missile launchers in your list, and they can fill that job. We don't need to go all out with them to start, though. Heavy Support Squad 5 Missile Launchers, Flakk Missiles, Augury Scanner 205 So, we're up to around 960 points. Your Librarian can join the heavy support squad and provide Divination buffs if that is your inclination, making sure those missiles hit with prescience, and maybe giving them Ignores Cover (if you get lucky on the psychic power rolls). 540 points left and we need to handle anti-tank (dealing well with AV13 and AV14) and TEQ. It sounds like you might already have a lot of marine bodies and rhinos floating around, so let's address the latter with a support squad. Tactical Support Squad 4 Plasma Guns 160 Rhino 35 Four plasma guns in rapid fire range will give most squads of terminators a really bad day, and the same goes for pesky monstrous creatures. You could also put the Librarian in this squad, since there is room in the transport for him, and he could provide the same rerolls/buffs to make their shooting more effective. Now we have two problems and 345 points left. The first is, what do we do with the Praetor. The second is, what do we do about tanks. We've got our Praetor/Wolf Lord just standing around with no where to be, and we need to make sure we've got a method for nailing tanks. There are several ways you can solve the anti-tank problem. Tanks of your own (Land Raiders, Sicarans), Rapiers with Laser Destroyers, Support Squads with meltaguns, Heavy Weapons squads with lascannons. Any of these choices could give you some of the anti-armor punch you need, but what you choose may be dependent on the flavor of list you are going for and what models you have on hand. If your Wolf Lord is going to stand around being expensive and not being in combat (how are you going to get him there? who is going to back him up in a fight?) you might also ask if he is worth taking at this low point limit. If we drop the Praetor (150 points) and flesh the list out a little more, we can look like this. Consul Librarian, Mastery Level 2, Artificer Armor 125 Tactical Squad Additional CCWs, Vexilla, Power Axe, Melta Bombs, Artificer Armor 205 Rhino 35 Tactical Squad Additional CCWs, Vexilla, Power Axe, Melta Bombs, Artificer Armor 205 Rhino 35 Tactical Squad Additional CCWs, Vexilla, Power Axe, Melta Bombs, Artificer Armor 205 Rhino 35 Tactical Support Squad 4 Plasma Guns 160 Rhino 35 Heavy Support Squad 5 Missile Launchers, Flakk Missiles, Augury Scanner 205 Heavy Support Squad 5 Lascannons, Augury Scanner 240 This brings the list up to 1485 and I think covers all 5 of the tasks I outlined above, along with providing a solid core of scoring units. Those extra 15 points could be used to upgrade the power axes to power fists on your sergeants (and likewise dropping the meltabombs when you do that would free up 15 more points, which you could then spend on maybe some upgrades for your other units - maybe a refractor field for your rune priest and an augury scanner for the plasmagunners?). For the record, I went with Lascannons over a support squad with meltaguns due to the availability of armored ceramite to 30k armies. Now, again, you should take any lists I suggest with a grain of salt, I'm a 40k veteran, but also not a super-competitive player and still new to 30k. However, I hope you can follow the logic I was going through when putting the list together, trying to make sure there are weapons to take on any threat. I've also been guessing at the models you already have and trying to use them in the list, but my guesses may be entirely wrong. When you expand towards 2000 points, adding your Praetor back in, a terminator command squad, and a Phobos might be feasible. Let's see what that might look like. Praetor Terminator Armor, Paragon Blade 155 Command Squad Terminator Armor 145 Alas, we have run into a problem. This is already 300 points, and a stock Phobos without any upgrades is more than that. If you perhaps cut one of the tactical squads from your list for 2000 points, you could instead afford a Phobos and some more toys and bodies for the Command Squad. Doing that, we free up 240 points (for a total of 740 points to play with). This allows us to: Praetor Terminator Armor, Paragon Blade 155 Command Squad 1 Additional Chosen, Terminator Armor 180 Land Raider Phobos Armor Ceramite, Frag Assault Launchers 280 For a total of 615. This means there is another 125 points for you to purchase things like digital lasers, master crafting, upgraded ranged weapons, etc for your Praetor, and power fists, ranged weapons, etc for the command squad. What you get there will be up to you. The terminator armor costs the same either way, and I don't know if you prefer Tartaros or Cataphractii, so I didn't specify. If you get Tartaros, then you have a few points to spare in there to get your Praetor an Iron Halo still. The big downside here is that you are going DOWN in scoring units as points increases. Not ideal, but you still have three of them in Rhinos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Araghast Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Terminators are scoring in 30k, but is command squad scoring I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Terminators are scoring in 30k, but is command squad scoring I don't know. It isn't. Implacable Advance is a special rule only for terminator squads. If he did a terminator squad, though, he would have no where to put his Praetor (4 model Command Squad vs 5 model terminator squad). If he wanted to leave the Praetor out, a terminator squad in a Phobos fits pretty well into the 500 point gap between 1500 and 2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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