Alternate Heresy Community Project

[Conn Eremon]

I mean a secret like the Night of the Wolf was. That had two Legions too, didn't it? Adding a world's population (what's left of it) would, I think, have no effect. Very few would leave their world, and those that did would be in no position to spread the word in a perceivable way.

 

As for who is actually right or wrong, doesn't matter. You can argue either way. Just depends on which argument you go with for the "talk," if there still is one. To me, Russ had a valuable lesson to teach that fell on deaf ears. But even I have to admit the futility of reasoning with someone who hates being a slave, and by his way thinking still is one. If you can pull that off for this Night of the Axes, which I think could be done, then success!

[Wade Garrett]

Was the Wolf Night really that much of a secret? Khârn and Bloodspitter discussed it between themselves readily enough, and Lorgar seemed to have heard at least a distorted account of it, although this was after spending a long campaign with the World Eaters.

 

Is random Battle Brother whoever going to know about it? Nope. But I think the Primarchs and such would all know something went down between Konrad and Angron, even if they don't have all the facts.

 

As far as lessons:

Konrad is trying to show Angron that conquering these independent powers QUICKLY instead of prancing around is necessary, and the world does join the Imperium after his attack, which could be a vindication.

 

Angron..."When the galaxy is finally ours, we'll hold a worthless prize if we plant the last aquila, on the last day, on the last world, having led humanity into moral darkness."

 

He sees the balance tipping attack by the last survivors as proof that HIS way is the best.

 

ADB makes this look so easy...

[Conn Eremon]

Which is what I mean. It is a secret, but a few of those more "in the know" than others, like the Primarchs, might be aware of it, ranging from a hint that something went down to a Chinese whisper accounting of it.

 

Like, wouldn't the Primarchs have a hint that Alpharius Omegon are two people? To, yeah we know about our lost brothers, but we don't speak of it.

[Wade Garrett]

But the idea of Konrad's "Those who are not with us are against us. They must be brought into the fold or cut from the face of the galaxy."

 

VS

 

Angron's "I will not kill entire cultures simply for the sin of not being born on Terra and wishing to live life on their own terms!" is acceptable?

 

And now I think the Jyhodh should be a significant event that requires multiple Legions to put down and haunts Angron, because after all, this 40K 30K, not Star Trek.

[Conn Eremon]

If we want a Night like the canon one, I'd say leave it as Konrad Monarchia-ing one of these worlds under his own volition and alone.

 

If the Night is separate, or removed, add as many as you'd like.

 

Edit: I'm fine with it. One has the morally higher ground, but isn't being too naive for it's own good. The other follows the basic logic of the whole Crusade. It's basically someone telling Angron to get with the program, when Angron knows it could be so much better, in a situation where neither are wrong.

[Wade Garrett]

I just wanted to be sure I'm not letting my own opinion of the canon Great Crusade ("Hello, planet of friendly people who nontheless don't want to pay taxes to Terra. MEET THE NIGHT LORDS!") taint what should be a grey vs grey no clear "right answer" situation.

[Conn Eremon]

Provide some focus on the possibility that these worlds wouldn't have posed such a threat, caused so much damage, if they had been put down in the first place.

[Wade Garrett]

That...is supposed to be the whole point of them counterattacking the Imperium and Konrad shouting the names of Imperial casualties and ravaged Imperial worlds in Angron's face.

 

Perhaps I should throw in a conversation with one of the planet's surviving military leaders, who points out to Angron that his way still kills off the old civilizations and replaces them with the Imperium, albeit in a slower manner, perhaps with a metaphor of being stabbed in the heart vs slitting one's wrists and slowly bleeding out.

(Hey, you try coming up with happy analogies after the VIII Legion has ravaged your planet).

[Conn Eremon]

I know, I was just saying you could provide added focus to the possibility of Konrad being in the right if you're worried that he may appear too much in the "I don't understand what you mean. They didn't want to join. So they were the enemy. So they had to be killed utterly. Where am I losing you on this?" category.

 

Might be something to thinking about splitting up into different finished pieces (HAHAHAHAHA! OH WOW.), y'know? A little bit of bias for one here, a little bit of bias for the other there, a little bit of "Look, they were both :cuss ing retarded, alright?" in this little hidey hole over there.

[Wade Garrett]

I like that.

 

It might be for the best if we get three perspectives, say, a Konrad centric one from Brother Heinrich, Angron's POV from me, and somebody tackling it from the view of the poor saps who had their universe turned upside down first by Angron and the Lions and then by Konrad and his axemen.

[Conn Eremon]

The perspectives of the Fresh Princes of Belairia, you got it.

[Wade Garrett]

What is this I don't..."Konrad Dominus showed up and we all got scared, then Angron said You're moving in with me in my realm of UltaMAIR."

 

NO.

 

And with that out of the way, I'd like to talk about the Sons of Barabbas some more.

 

Life on Barbarus isn't easy. There is very little that isn't tainted, toxic, corrosive, venomous, posionous, or all of the above.

 

But the people have clean water, a decent supply of food, and even electricity...because Barabbas's Wardens maintain strict rationing to ensure that this is so.

 

Things are so scarce that it is wasteful to shape a tool that is only suited for one task (a sword kills men, a shovel digs holes, make me an entrenching tool that does BOTH) which is why the armies Barabbas led in support of the Necromancer's creations carried mauls, mattocks, and similar implements that were more than just weapons.

 

Indeed, he mustered the entire populations of the villages below to his first father's cause, men and women alternating hard labor with front line combat while children and elders filled all the support roles an army requires.

 

It was a brutal existence...yet the hungry were fed, the ragged were clothed, and the sick tended to.

 

True, there were those who spoke out against the new order and who had to be worked to death in labor camps, but what of it? A full belly and warm clothing are worth more than any number of platitudes about liberty or equality.

 

This attitude has shaped his Legion as well. The Sons are notorious for requisitioning as much ammunition, armor, fuel, and similar consumables as they can and then being incredibly stingy with its expenditure.

 

Its Astartes prefer wielding repurposed mining or industrial gear like breaching drills or plasma torches in battle, and turning their equipment to back breaking drudge labor as soon as the last enemy has fallen, strip mining and clear cutting entire continents in the wake of their compliances.

 

This suits them well to campaigns where refit and resupply will be limited, yet they maintain the same attitude when

in theatres where consumables are abundant.

 

Indeed, tempers have flared when the Thirteenth has seized what it considers "excess" material from other Legions, with some even claiming they maintain a specially trained cadre within their Apocetharium to remove the gene seed from the fallen of other Legions and implant it within recruits of the Thirteenth, though Pre Heresy this was never conclusively proven.

 

Likewise, they are known to make heavy use of mortal auxilia, many of whom are indoctrinated to view the Emperor as divine and his Astartes as holy, and thus willing interpose themselves between their masters and bullets or explosives. Others are prisoners who have been subjected to a modified form of hypnoconditioning that renders them almost as mindlessly obedient as the average servitor. While such levies are considered expendable, they are nontheless an asset just like bolt rounds or fuel, and are expected to be husbanded just as conservatively.

 

While he claims no vast swathes of space like his brothers Lanista or Jonson, Barabbas's Legion does control a number of Gaol-Garrisons, planets where Astartes guards housed in remote inaccesible fortresses keep watch on populations assembled by culling the dissidents and rebels from across the breadth of the Imperium, with Olympia only the most well known of them.

[Wade Garrett]

Here's a thought:

 

The counter attack from the civilizations Angron left alone occurs sometime in between the Emperor's fall at Ullanor and Corax's elevation to Warmaster.

 

It becomes a serious issue, with the Cabal (and the Angels of Colchis?) quietly supporting the backlash for their own devious reasons.

 

Lanista Corax rises to the fore, taking charge of the bickering elements, crushing the attackers, and getting the Great Crusade rolling once again.

 

In the aftermath, as other Primarchs debate what should be done about Angron's Legion fouling things up so badly, Konrad Dominus takes it upon himself to instruct the Twelfth Primarch, although that doesn't end well for either of them.

 

In the end, the new Warmaster decides against draconian censures, influenced by Primarchs like Perturabo (and Lorgar, which surprises Angron when he hears about it) speaking on the Philosopher King's behalf, although some sort of measures (like the stationing of Custodes with the Word Bearers after Monarchia) are taken.

 

It also puts Primarchs like Bron and Barabbas firmly in Corax's camp, as in their opinion the Emperor allowed Angron to play the fool and almost wreck the Crusade while Lanista fixed the Emperor's mistake and set Angron firmly back on the right path.

 

Anyone want to volunteer their Legions for this event?

 

Anyone think this is a good idea AT ALL?

[Conn Eremon]

I think Jonson and the First Legion might be a good fit, especially if Corax is using this event to solidify his claim to the Warmaster title. Nice set up for potential rivalry between the Chainsworn and the First Legion (Man am I kicking myself for not submitting a Cthonian Lion. FIRST FOUNDED. FIRST FOUND.), leading to Corax using Jonson, the one he feels the most likely to threaten his reign, as a target for when the hot mess hits the fan.

[Wade Garrett]

So..First Legion, Chainsworn, Lions, and Executioners, perhaps with Corax bringing in some of the Minotaurs if not Ferrus himself to assist?

 

I think we should also pull one of the "Good guy" Primarchs (Magnus, Perturabo, Anubis) to speak in favor of not coming down on Angron like a ton of bricks, and maybe some elements of the Imperial Hounds and Red Corsairs to blunt the attacking fleets.

 

I see it playing out as Hound and Corsair fleets are the first to respond, but their actions are hampered by the different doctrines they follow and "YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!", an affliction that spreads to the Executioners and whomever else shows up, Jonson arrives and tries a "EVERYBODY DO WHAT I SAY", which is ignored, and then Corax turns up and creates, if not consensus, at least co-existence. (Canon Guilliman or Lion approach vs Canon Horus).

[Conn Eremon]

My thoughts since posting that was that Jonson actually lets Corax take charge. Some Primarchs look to Jonson for leadership, but to avoid confrontations or complications, Jonson hands authority over. "ENOUGH. We follow his lead."

 

Corax might be a bit resentful that his authority might in part stem from Jonson's authority, leading to his view of Jonson as a rival to his position.

 

Leading to post-Heresy Jonson going "Me, follow someone else's lead? Because that worked so well last time. No, you will follow MY lead."

[Wade Garrett]

That works as well. Also it makes Jonson a more logical choice for Lord Commander post Heresy (in that it shows he can make decisions based on factors other than "MUH EGO!").

[Conn Eremon]

The thing between Angron and Konrad could be the catalyst that makes Jonson realize that any leadership is better than no leadership.

 

Then Chaos happens, and Jonson realizes that he was wrong at that. No leadership is better than the wrong leadership. So he will accept no Imperial authority unless that Imperial authority is himself. The right leader for the job. So yeah, there is some ego there, but justifiable.

 

Plus, more contention between Jonson and Angron. You put him in charge, Jackal. No, your own folly saw to that.

[Wulfkry]

Sorry to butt in, but have been following this thread since its an inception and am very glad its turning out the way it is.  Is there a list somewhere of who is who in relation to their 40k canon counter parts?  Going through the thread I'm having trouble figuring out some of the primarchs on their new homeworld in relation  to who they are in the canon universe.

[Conn Eremon]

I do not want to make a list of who is who on this thread, because it just breaks the feel of what we've got going here. So all I'll do (aside from give examples to help get the point across) is point out what is the same in both realities.

 

If you look at the first and second post, you will see a listing of the Legions and Primarchs.

 

The thing to remember is that the Legion number, and the gene-seed tied to it, does not change. The part in which our alternate reality deviates is where the Primarch pods wind up after being stolen by the Warp. The numerals carved into those pods don't change, which means that the numbered Legions don't change whose gene-seed they get.

 

Canon Legio I, which is led by Lion el'Jonson, based off of Caliban and is calling itself the Dark Angels, are in our universe Legio I, which is led by Jonson the Palatine, based off of Mundus Planus (Chogoris in canon) and is calling itself the First Legion.

 

So if you're confused about who Adra'Melek is supposed to be, as an example, check back to those first two posts and you'll see that Adra'Melek is Primarch of the XIVth Legion, which in canon is the Death Guard. Making Adra'Melek an alternate Mortarion.

 

Now, me, I have the list of Legion's memorized. Give me and a number and I'll rapid fire off who is who and what is what in either reality. But I wouldn't expect everyone else to do so, as some of our authors have changed their Primarchs and Legions quite a bit. If you ever get confused, you can find the list of Legions on any Warhammer 40k wikipedia. They might not be the most reliable in certain circumstances, but when you want to know who the XVth Legion is, they're not going to give you the wrong information. Once you know who the XVth is, you'll be able to look at our list and see who they are in our universe. Spoiler, he's still called Magnus but now he's the High King of an Irish-themed Calibanite Knighthood.

 

Feel free to message me as well. If I get a message stating "Uhh, who's this guy again?" I'd feel like a jerk if I didn't clear it up for you.

[Wade Garrett]

I think it would be helpful if we all gave a brief synopsis of the closest relationships(positive and negative) our Primarchs have with their brothers. For instance:

 

LORGAR CLEFTJAW

A scarred, cynical, and occasionally fatalistic Primarch who is a master at void warfare and fortification in spite of the fact that he never wished to walk the warrior's path.

 

Lorgar has few close friends friends among his fellow Primarchs. The Iron Hoplite of Chemos is one, as is the Iconoclast Lord of the Astral Wolves. Although he is often caustic and derogatory when speaking of or to the Philosopher King of Maccrage, in truth Lorgar admires the younger Primarch's faith in humanity and refusal to compromise his ideals.

 

Meanwhile, the mystery and magics the Ghost Fox of Caliban cloaks himself in inspire a quiet but ill hidden loathing from the Emperor's Hound and his sons, as does the exultation with which Lassertine Bron's psykers wield their powers.

 

He is much less reserved about his disgust for the excesses of the Blackened Fists and Minotaurs, and comparing his Legion to either of those two is a certain way to end up on the wrong end of the Cleftjaw's mercurial temper and sharp tongue.

 

Of course, the Seventeenth has a long and well documented rivalry with Leman Barbedor and his Legion that predates even the discovery of the Goldenbeard, with the two taking every oppurtunity to proclaim their own methods as superior and decry the other as an incompetent dullard, although Lorgar's longer tenure in command of Imperial fleets gives him a string of victories Leman cannot (officially) match.

 

Likewise, Lorgar has little truck with Sanguinus of Colchis and his view of Astartes and Primarchs as superior beings.

 

They are weapons and warriors all, shaped to be so from their genesis. At best, they fight so others can achieve something lasting. At worst...take another look at the VII or the X, then tell him again how "superior" Astartes are.

 

FERRUS MORDAX

A mutilated, hateful, hating beast of a man whose contempt for the xenos that pollute the galaxy is only matched by his disgust for those too weak to do what must be done to cleanse them from existence.

 

He holds others to the same standards he has for himself, and he ripped the xenos taint from his flesh with his own teeth, driven by the purifying rage of the Butcher's Nails.

 

Ferrus has no friends and desires none. The closest he comes is his regard for Lanista Corax, who saw in a feral, maimed thing in the fighting pits

something akin to himself, and raised it to be the prize of his stable of gladiators and the head of his Kin-Guard.

 

The Iron Devourer hates Primarchs like Bron or Jonson no less than he does Anubis or Fulgrim. All of them play pretending at war, acting as if they take no joy in the slaughter of their enemies.

 

He does share something with Rogal Dorn, the Haunted. It is nothing like friendship or respect...perhaps the best way to describe it is familiarity, born from the Warmaster repeatedly yoking their Legions together in theatres where nothing but the utter obliteration of the enemy will do.

 

ROBOUTE BARABBAS

The dour and plain spoken Roboute Barabbas is aware that many of his actions could be viewed as harsh-even tyrannical!-but he knows that what he does, he does for the good of mankind. NOT to sate an uncontrollable temper, or feed a hunger for adulation and praise, or any of the manias and neuroses that drive too many of his brothers.

 

As such, he holds a surprising regard for his "nobler" brothers Perturabo and Anubis, even poor foolish Angron.

 

More so than he does for half tamed animals like the Devourer or the Burned Man, driven fanatics like Lupercal or Magnus, or the infinite abyss of narcisism that is Sanguinus, at any rate.

 

His relations with Primarchs such as Bron and Jonson are...complicated. On the one hand, all three of them admire each other's accomplishments and refusal to let sentiment cloud their decisions.

 

On the other, they (and, he is self aware enough to admit, himself as well) can never be overly fond of anything they cannot bend to their will.

 

Lanista Corax, however, while similarly accomplished and capable of making distasteful but necessary decisions, has proven much more amendable to his advice and guidance, in addition to having the charismatic spark the taciturn Barabbas lacks and a knack for turning a rival into an ally without bludgeoning him into submission first.

 

In short, a fine figurehead for Barabbas to stand behind as he orders matters to ensure humanity thrives among the stars, even if the Pale King does pay too much heed to the words of that egomanical "Angel".

 

ANGRON OF MACCRAGE

An idealistic firebrand who sees the Great Crusade as the reunion of all the lost branches of humanity, the bane of tyrants and xenos, and the restoration of all that was lost during the Age of Strife and Old Night, who refuses to compromise his morals for expediency.

 

Outwardly, at least. In private, he wonders just how much he is simply following his adoptive father's cold calculus of manipulation and hiding a lust for power under a fair mask.

 

And so he holds himself to to an unbending code, because while it takes a lifetime to reach the top of the mountain, a slip moment can see a man falling into the depths.

 

He sees Jonson, who crushed the tribes of Mundis and rules countless worlds with an iron fist, as everything he could be and must never become.

 

Likewise, he loathes the wanton brutality of Adrah'Malek, Konrad Dominus, and Bron. If you treat men like beasts, is it any wonder that they turn on you biting and clawing?

 

Nor does he care much for the bitterness and sarcasm endlessly spewed by Lorgar and Leman Barbedor, and on several occasions the Lion of Maccrage has had to walk out of planning sessions lest he lose his temper and strike one or the other.

 

He counts Perturabo and Fulgrim as dear friends, and likewise admires Lupercal's dedication to freedom and Anubis's desire to rebuild the wonders of the Golden Age and heal the wounds inflicted by its destruction.

 

Strangely, Angron is also somewhat fond of Roboute Barabbas, who began operating in the realm of Ultramar when the Philosopher King opened his recruiting worlds to his brothers.

 

Angron may disagree with his brother's methods, but he does not fault his dedication to mankind.

 

Indeed, the Sons of Barabbas have lent a small number of organizer-artisans from within their ranks to aid Angron in shaping his emergent realm, with Angron loaning Roboute some of his diplomat-blademasters to better that Primarch's attempts at bringing worlds into compliance without bloodshed and bettering the lives of newly integrated populations.

[Conn Eremon]

Sounds interesting, but I need to get my Liber Astartes piece done by the end of tomorrow, so I'll try and force myself to not indulge myself with this project in the meantime. :p

[Wade Garrett]

It's starting to feel as if Cormac and I are the only one's trying to bring this thing to life....

;)

[Ace Debonair]

So I don't post for one day and suddenly It's like I'm not even taking part?

-=-= Fulgrim Dragonslayer =-=-

Fulgrim has a degree of respect for each of his brothers, although there are some that he simply doesn't get along with.

Although both Fulgrim and Ferrous are always striving to better themselves, that's where the similarities really end. The Iron Devourer and the Lightning Bearer generally stay away from each other when possible.

Dorn is another Primarch who Fulgrim has a hard time relating to. Fulgrim's early attempts at conversation simply resulted in the Haunted staring dourly at Fulgrim in cold silence.

Leman Barbedor, in his typically boisterous way, seems to delight in pointing out Fulgrim's shortcomings and ribbing him for it. Fulgrim being Fulgrim, even though these remarks are often made in jest, they cut deep.

Lasartine Bron is another who is generally critical of Fulgrim, all too happy to point out that striving to fight each and every foe with honour is equivalent to wasting time and lives.

He's good friends with Lanista Corax, the two serving as foils for each other. Corax is one of the few Primarchs able to convince Fulgrim he doesn't need to leap head-first at every single challenge to be a worthy Primarch, and Fulgrim often talks Lanista out of his darker moods.

Fulgrim and Perturabo are also probably close friends. Fulgrim didn't exactly get to practice art and culture on Medusa, but after seeing what Perturabo has made of Chemos, I'd imagine it would serve to inspire Fulgrim to make the leap from artisan to artist, particularly in the field of making weapons and armour for his Legion.

Equally, Angron and Fulgrim probably get along well. Fulgrim is always looking for ways to improve, and happily accepts much of Angron's advice on matters of strategy and planning. The Battle-King, for his part, approves of the Dragonslayer's commitment to bettering himself.

Fulgrim gets on with most of his other brothers, more or less. He's probably fairly neutral with most of them until the Atrocity, at any rate.

-=-= Lupercal =-=-

Lupercal's a tricky one to pin down, relations-wise.

In my head, he'd get along well with Angron, Leman, and maybe Magnus, at least sometimes.

Angron for their mutual preference of letting people do as they will so long as they join the Imperium and swear to serve only the Emperor.

Leman because the two of them have plenty in common - they're both raiders by nature who don't overly like taking orders from the more pompous and disciplined Primarchs.

And Magnus, because I can't think of any reason the two would dislike each other. It's probably more of a mutual, albeit distant respect than a close brotherhood, though.

Everyone else puts Lupercal on edge. Either they're staring down their noses at him and preaching about honour, hunger too much for war and destruction, or are tyrants in all but name.

EDIT:

Except Lorgar, as Wade pointed out. There's no reason for Lorgar and Lupercal to not get along either - they both share similar ideals and visions for the future, and have similar demeanours. So Lupercal and Lorgar are probably good pals so long as the conversation doesn't get around to Leman too often.

-=-= Lasartine Bron =-=-

EDIT:

So my post from a while back about nicknaming Lasartine Bron the Worldburner has either been eaten by forum gribblies or I just can't find it.

Either way I've only just remembered about it, so I'm going to use that name for him more often from now on.

Anyway!

Bron prefers brothers who are as merciless and unforgiving as himself in prosecution of their duties, but also any who share his ultimate vision of a united galaxy, free from war.

He'd get along fairly well with Anubis and Lorgar, since the Healer of Prospero and the Cleftjaw both value peace over conflict.

Bron would also relate well to Corax, Roboute, Dorn, Konrad and Adra'Melek, as Primarchs who don't hesitate to destroy any who would resist or seek to derail the Great Crusade.

Also, Lasartine probably finds kindred spirits with the Twins (not at the same time, obviously!), who prefer to use any means necessary to win their wars, as much by guile and subtlety as force of arms.

Bron should, on paper, get along with Angron. Both of them use diplomacy as another means to win battles, both of them use doctrines of devastating force to overwhelm enemies, and both of them seek the same goal of a united humanity.

In practice, however, Angron dislikes Bron's tendency to inspire fear in people wherever possible, and Bron thinks Angron talks too much and is too weak to accept his own true nature.

Fulgrim also makes Bron's list of dislikes. The Lightning Bearer is far too concerned with treating each foe with honour, with his Legion far too taken with the notion of duels and glorious deeds. Such posturing irks the Worldburner, who would rather expend his effort in crushing a foe than treating them like an equal.

Jonson and Bron strike me as being, well, perpetually wary of each other. They're similar enough in their pragmatic, merciless nature to each suspect the other of being a capable thorn in their respective sides. Also Corax and Bron are bros, so Lanista may well influence Bron's view of Jonson.

[Wade Garrett]

I may need to edit out that bit about Lupercal and Lorgar being friends in my post.

 

As I saw it, the Astral Wolves aren't fighting to build an empire

(First Legion, Sons of Barabbas) nor do they revel in carnage for carnage's sake (Minotaurs, Infernal Legion), they go to war so others can be freed and saved from tyranny, something Lorgar respects.

 

But if you'd prefer he be friends with that [redacted] Barbedor that's fine.

 

As for Lorgar and Bron, the way he lets his Librarians run wild and unleash storms of maleficarum sets the Fenrisian's teeth on edge, being reminiscent of the darkest stories from his icy home.