Alternate Heresy Community Project

[Conn Eremon]

It'a certainly a thought, Thunor, but before we get into some further extrapolating later events, let's get everyone to summarize what they are aware of their Legion(s) so far and from there start from the very beginning.

[Ace Debonair]

Perhaps the Astral Wolves recoil at what the Infernal legion becomes? Initially welcoming their support but turns to discust as they fall into bloodlust. maybe even at Melek's assention.

That could be pretty awesome.

Moreso if Melek takes Lupercal's disgust over the worship of Chaos personally and sets his Infernal Legion on the Astral Wolves as well as Jonson's Legion.

It'd be pretty cool to have that war devolve into a three-way brawl, with Jonson and Lupercal trying to match strategies while also trying to shepherd the Infernal Legion's rampage away from their own troops.

Hell, I'd be cool with Melek killing Lupercal some time after the Great Atrocity, just 'cause nobody disses the Infernal Legion.

EDIT:

Oops, sorry Cormac. Just ignore all that postulating future events.

[Adra'Melek]

Ok, so back to the beginning. The theme of rehabilitation/redemption runs through the Infernal Legion. They give everyone a chance to join the Imperium, whether they're xenos lovers, AI using, or peaceful and 'normal'. But they get one chance and if it's not taken then the colony ships will have to come in repopulate. As the crusade progresses Melek finds corruption and greed in 'Compliant' worlds that needs uprooting. Becomes a little despondent with the Imperium and waste and corruption in any huge empire. Probably worsens when the Emperor is enthroned.

 

Favours up close combat, flamers, Meltas, volkites, and CCW.

 

Also I was thinking about having Melek's voice box being mangled due to fire damage and having someone act has his Voice. Astartes but a special role (not captain or praetor or anything, Chaplin?). Either not much of a fighter or nails, one extreme or the other. This guy may be a source of corruption in the Legion (we'll wait and see).

[Wade Garrett]

This is fairly off topic, but I was reading through an older collection of 40k short stories and came across one called "Battle of the Archeosaurs" which is about the Adeptus Titanicus versus feral world tribesmen who have tamed Titan sized space dinosaurs that breath plasma.

 

And now I dearly want to have this planet discovered and overtaken by one of my Legions, either the Minotaurs because it fits with their "menagerie of xenos monsters" schtick post Heresy or the Sons of Barabbus because it fits with them preferring low tech solutions and also leads to giant dino zombies.

[Wade Garrett]

More seriously, I'm not sold on having Barabbas attack Prospero before the Rampage or the Shattering.

 

I get it's our analog of the Wolves vs Thousand Sons, but there you had the Nikea Edict and the warning of Horus's treason turning everything sour.

 

Here it seems as if Barabbas just laid into Anubis because....Prospero needed to burn?

 

Also, having the Astral Wolves be an "Independent" Legion...eh, it kind of rubs me the wrong way. In my view, one of the rules of the setting is you're either for the Imperium or for Chaos (Soul Drinkers, Astral Claws, etc) and so I tend to look askance at things like the Dornian Heresy Realm of Ultramar and the Guilliman Heresy Khanate.

 

But that is purely a matter of personal taste I will drop if no one agrees with me.

[Conn Eremon]

I believe he meant it more along the lines of the canon Night Lords' independence than the introduction of a third faction. Canon Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Iron Warriors can be viewed as a bit separate from the other Legions, Night Lords most of all. I am comfortable with the idea of keeping it Chaos or Imperial only. Though one of these days, I want to explore the idea of it being the other way around. Which I came close to advocating here.

 

As for Barabbas assaulting Prospero, I thought it was Corax's wish, due to Anubis' potential for restoring the Emperor. The Warmaster needed Prospero to burn so that the Emperor's circumstances would not improve, as that ran counter to his plans of being named heir upon the Emperor's final passing.

[Wade Garrett]

And what I'm having trouble with is Barabbas's motivation for jumping to it when Corax tells him to.

 

Thought:

Under Warmaster Corax, the Great Crusade runs faster than it did under the Emperor, due to the "savage" Legions like the Scars, Angels, Executioners, and Minotaurs being allowed free rein in their operations.

 

Ergo Barabbas comes to feel Corax is a more suitable ruler of the Imperium than the Emperor.

 

The only thing is...they need a reason for attacking Prospero they can sell to the other Legions, if I am making myself clear? They wouldn't want, say...

 

Angron:

Duuude! Roboute just like, totally bombed Prospero! We should, like, do something.

 

Corax:

Oh. Yeah. I told him to do that because I wanted the cure for dad busted.

 

Angron:

That's totally bogus, bro! Like, have at you!

 

Unless it happens at around the same time as the Shattering at Vilamus and the Boros Gate.

[Conn Eremon]

Which I believe it is, or assume should be. Doesn't sound right making it a prior event. It should be something that Corax does to cement his control at a time when his control is slipping, i.e. when Fulgrim starts calling him out on his bull.

 

Essentially, the logic Corax applies to get Jonson to fall under fire would also apply to Prospero. Though where Jonson is sold as public enemy one, Anubis is just "dealt" with. I would think that Prospero should be directly after the proverbial solid waste hits the fan, close enough for the events to run into each other.

 

As for Barabbas' reasoning . . . your ball, your court.

[Wade Garrett]

I think the idea that the Emperor allowed "bleeding hearts" like Perturabo, Lorgar, and Angron to dilute the goals and purpose of the Great Crusade, while Warmaster Lanista is willing to make the hard choices that need to be made would suit Roboute just fine.

 

Thought:

He was told Jonson would be brought to their side, and sent to Prospero to get him out of the way before all Hell broke loose in the Palatinate. I wouldn't say he and the Jackal are friends, both of them are too cold hearted for that, but there's mutual respect and admiration between them.

 

Corax knows once the Sons torch Prospero they won't be able to turn back from his cause, and gambles Barabbus won't turn on him out of mere sentimentality.

[Ace Debonair]

No problems with not making the Astral Wolves a third wheel.

But they're still not going to play nice with anyone, more so while Lupercal's still alive.

Even after Lupercal dies, it'll still be uncommon to see Astral Wolves willingly working with the rest of the Red Team, but not unheard of.

[Wade Garrett]

Bit like the canon Alphas or the Night Lords, then. (I imagine them swooping in on the fringes of Black Crusades to "liberate" Imperial populations. And occasionally the populations of Traitor held planets as well, because they're not hypocrites in their abolitionism.)

 

Also...have I got Angron, the Battle King of Maccrage now? Is he mine?

[Conn Eremon]

God help us all . . .

 

Yes, Wade. Nobody has claimed him, so he is yours to do as you will.

 

:p

 

We'll need a summary of what he's up to. It's pretty blank as of now. I'll be contacting the others today to get their attention. Ridcully, Alpharius and Heathens have yet to do their summary.

[Wade Garrett]

First try:

XII Legion "Celestial Lions"
Primarch: Angron the Battle King
Homeworld: Maccrage
Heraldry: A golden lion's head
Colors: White with blue trim
Battle Cry: "A Maccragian always pays his debts" "Faithful and True!"
Specialization: Highly mobile units outmanuvering the enemy, Assault Marines, Land Speeders, and Jetbikes in large numbers.

"To win a battle is no great feat. Simply deploy the proper force at the correct place before your enemy can do the same. Determining how much force is proper and where the correct place is, on the other hand..."
Between Victory and Defeat, a treatise on tactics by Primarch Angron

Also, are there any slots open he can fit into?

The Siege is the Executioners, Emperor's Children, and Solar Tigers.

The Shattering is the Iron Hoplites, Imperial Hounds, and...maybe a spot for him here?

The Order of Swords must duel the Angels of Colchis.

First Legion are tied up with Lupercal and Adra'Melek, and Omegon's Effrit have a date with Cerberus and daemons at Signus Prime.

[Conn Eremon]

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/236/1/4/chapter_master_lannwyn_of_the_crimson_lions_by_greyall-d6jieoc.jpg

[Wade Garrett]

I unliked that picture of...I'm guessing an Astral Claw from back in the good old days? just so I could like it TWICE.

 

Anyway, the assumption I am operating under for Angron is that he was the Primarch who could have been the kindest and most concerned for for the mortals and Astartes he was to rule (see interactions with Lethrella the Scrymistress and his warriors on "Conqueror" in Betrayer when Lorgar promises to save him on Nuceria) but the loss of his gladiator army and the Butcher's Nails...when Lorgar talks about how no one else could hate the way Angron could, how no other Primarch felt such pain and violation at life's betrayals, my theory is that Angron was hurt the most because he cared the most.

 

Give him a different upbringing and, well...

 

However, given that this is the grim darkness of the far future, being the nice guy Primarch should not be without repercussions.

 

Perhaps a "Night of the Wolf" style event with Jonson, Bron, or even Konrad, in an attempt to teach him the lesson that he should conquer faster and be more aggressive?

 

Having it be Konrad might be a fun little wink at canon, Angron just can't ever seem to get along with "executioner" Legions or their Primarchs.

[Conn Eremon]

It's Tywin Lannister re-imagined as a Marine by Greyall. Your "A Macraggian always pays his debts" strikethrough quote reminded me of it.

 

Shattering could fit you, though I can't help but think someone is being left out. Emperor's Children were there, I believe. Blackened Fists. The Imperial Hounds are basically Shattered but away from the actual event. I guess you could call it the Phall alternative. Bron's free, isn't he? What about a Thramas Crusade? If Angron is so far outward, according to his author, maybe Bron is sent to keep him out. As I think of it, I feel like maybe Jonson and Angron could be the Big Two not unlike Dorn and Guilliman. But with a lot of their roles being flip flopped.

 

You know, it might be nice if we could have a visual of our Marines. Would everyone mind doing a mock-up in the site's painter? Do one without any wargear, that I can collect into a line-up. I'll do my four.

[Wade Garrett]

Ah, I see.

 

That's pretty much the iconography I had in mind for Angron's legion, though, colored canon Pre Heresy World Eaters colors with all the lions in gold.

 

Also, aren't the EC our Imperial Fists, who don't get a chance to show their quality until the war comes to Terra? Unless Fulgrim sends out a Retribution Fleet of his own, I suppose.

 

Back to Angron for a bit...I'd like his Legion to be aggressive, but not like the canon XII. Their focus is on gaining the iniative, making the enemy react to them.

 

Hence highly mobile formations that attempt to outflank and envelop the foe.

 

I know Heathens posted about Perturabo, Angron, and Lorgar as "the heart, mind, and soul" of the Imperium, and it seems to me this style of war would make the Twelfth an excellent hammer for the anvil of Perturabo's blocs

of swordsmen or Lorgar's tribesmen in their crude field fortifications.

 

(Interestingly, while I was looking at things for the Hounds I read about the New Zealand Wars, where Maori tribesmen with hand weapons and a few muskets were able to fight and in some cases beat the British army because of the elaborate earthworks they could erect, sometimes in as little as two to fifteen days.)

[Conn Eremon]

The best defense is a good offense. I can dig it.

 

I thought Fulgrim was a bit more proactive than Dorn, actually leaving Terra to throw his claims at the Warmaster's feet, fleeing back after being Shattered to rebuild and fortify. I could be mistaken. Considering what you have of Angron's tactics, I do feel that we should keep the original intent of him being too far away, and throw Bron at him to keep it that way, rather than adding him to the Shattering.

[Wade Garrett]

Fine by me. I can see a campaign pitting Angron against Bron being like a match between two extremely technical boxers, to an untrained eye not much is going on but that's because all the feinting and circling for dominant angles while trying to bait the other guy into an ill advised move that can be devastatingly countered is cancelling each other out.

 

If that made sense to anyone but me.

[Ace Debonair]

Fine by me. I can see a campaign pitting Angron against Bron being like a match between two extremely technical boxers, to an untrained eye not much is going on but that's because all the feinting and circling for dominant angles while trying to bait the other guy into an ill advised move that can be devastatingly countered is cancelling each other out.

 

If that made sense to anyone but me.

 

I can see this being awesome. Lots of decoys and apparently random attacks on isolated, possibly unimportant targets. Obvious traps used to bait more sophisticated ones. Bluffs, double bluffs, offensive and counter-offensive gambits on a campaign-wide level that would make the canon Alpha Legion sit back and go 'run that all by us again, would you?'

 

Attack the undefended recruitment world we just arrived at? An obvious trap. Angron could have evacuated the world and rigged the entire planet to self-destruct, or else concealed a Great Company or two with lots of tanks/titans/other awesome stuff there long ago. His ships would also steal a march, and thus we'd leave our flanks exposed. And while do have three battle-barges full of marines preparing an ambush in that gas cloud in case that happens, who's to say Angron hasn't already anticipated that and positioned a superior counter-offensive force in the asteroid field behind the planet?

 

 

If Roboute was there, he would probably weep tears of joy at the strategic poetry of it.

 

 

With regards to the Emperor's Children, I didn't think they were part of the Shattering, but don't mind if they are.

If Fulgrim himself is there, he shouldn't even get the chance to cross swords with one of his brothers, instead being pinned down by some really heavy fire and made to retreat at the insistence of his Captains.

 

I'd also expected the EC to take a lot of casualties at Terra, leaving the spotlight well and truly open for others to shine in our Scouring equivalent.

[Conn Eremon]

Which is where Jonson comes to the fore. As mentioned, Angron could be a suitable candidate for a major Scouring player as well. Perturabo is the only other candidate for a big player in the Scouring, I feel.

[Ace Debonair]

You know, ever since they got voted in I was certain it would be Angron and Perturabo who shaped the Imperium in the years following the heresy.

Of course, I'm totally digging Jonson being in on it, and nowdays while I still think Perturabo would do it, I can only picture him taking up the duty reluctantly. Maybe even only because Angron or one of the others asks him to, in fact.

I realise that my idea for the Bron vs Angron battles and the Lupercal vs Jonson battles are pretty similar, actually, but I can see a big difference (besides the Infernal Legion, of course!)

Namely, the aggression level. The Astral Wolves don't have any patience for tyrants, which is what Corax would make sure to paint Jonson as. It'd probably start with one big, impactful battle and then, when things stalemate and both sides regroup, it'd quickly break down into a series of skirmishes on each of Jonson's worlds while each Primarch looks for an advantage over the other.

With Bron and Angron, like Wade said, it'd be like two prizefighters circling each other and trying to spy out a flaw in the other's game. The big, all-or-nothing battle(s) would be the final set-piece rather than the initial conflict.

EDIT:

Typo.

[Conn Eremon]

At first, I figured Jonson would push the envelope on the breakdown of Legions and then be done with it. It was Wade's post about Jarl Jonson ordering the Imperial Hounds Squadron to hold the the first Black Crusade at bay that made me realize I hadn't actually said he didn't take command like Guilliman. But now that it's out there, I like the sound of it. Almost like Jonson's ultimatum was more like "No, you join me."

 

Considering I intend for his Cohorts to remain the First Legion in all but name, as in canon, I have a feeling his steepled hands were hiding one wolfish grin at the diplomatic table.

 

He is the Jackal after all.

[Wade Garrett]

As I wait for the B & C painter to stop acting as if it were afflicted by scrapcode so I can comply with Cormac's polite request, more on Angron of Maccrage:

 

The young Primarch developed the tactics for which he would become famous after negotiating peace between the hill tribes and his father Konnor's kingdom. The shining legions of he commanded were well suited to clashes of army against army, and routed the enemy every time it came to open battle, but on their shaggy mountain ponies the tribesmen were capable of riding rings around his warriors, using superior mobility to strike where they were not and take the upper hand in skirmishes and raids with their light cavalry tactics.

 

In peactime Primarch imported large numbers of the shaggy, ill tempered beasts and a number of hill clan trainers to create a force that would move about the countryside with all the mobility conferred by the hill ponies and their legendary stamina, and then dismount to fight in the manner of legionaires.

 

Here's where things get really off the wall:

I'm imagining Angron as having an actual FAMILY family when the Emperor turns up at Maccrage. These aren't his biological children, mind, while I considered him having multiple wives due to political marriages I ultimately decided that was a can of worms best left unopened. But I do like the idea that he has adopted several war orphans and raised them as his sons and daughters. Some of the sons will be selected to join the Legion, where they will face resentment from many of the Lions for having a closeness to the Primarch his gene sons can't seem to match.

 

Although trained to the sword, Angron adopts the twin chainaxes "Humility" and "Graciousness" to match his Legion (Humble in victory, gracious in defeat), indeed, it pleases him that his Astartes favor axes. Because while a sword can only be used for killing, an axe is a tool with many uses outside of just warfare.

 

While it might seem he and Lorgar are similar with their views on caring for mortals, the big difference is that Lorgar sees himself and his men as creatures who have stepped outside of or away from Humanity in order to protect the Imperium entrusted to their care.

 

In Angron's eyes, he and his men are still humans, enhanced a bit perhaps, but in the end no different from the millions who make up the Empire. I imagine he encourages his men to bring their families (human descendants and such) with them as they travel the stars, housing them on the heaviest defended ships in the fleet, of course. Something like modern military bases and their on site housing.

 

It also occurs to me that this will create something of a weakness in the Legion, perhaps a savage one. After all, many of the War Hounds were fairly vicious brutes before they found a Primarch to temper their rage. Some of them might long to return to those days, when what mattered was cracking skulls in war, not all this diplomacy and minimum necessary force nonsense.

[Conn Eremon]

Angron sounds like the kind of guy who would, upon learning he has a Legion genetically derived from him, adopt them as his own as well.

 

Perhaps the friction is reversed, the old sons who have joined (or even better, don't) not taking well to having their favor usurped or overcrowded?

 

Or make it universal, where the old sons despise all the intake of sons who were not there when Angron [insert cool pre-Discovery stuff] and the new sons tend to chafe at the leash. It doesn't have to be debilitating, the friction. Just characterful.