Alternate Heresy Community Project

[Brother Heinrich]

Chapters? After, definitely after. A potential solution to the problem of "what now?" after the heathens have been dealt with. No offense, 1000heathens.

Huh. My ex-wife used to say the same thing.

With my vestigial thoughts on the Iron Hoplites being ground down to the point of filling their ranks with mechanicum constructs, I'd say Perty would most definetley champion a "chapter" system. I got a double-dog-dare idea, though. How about we come up with a different system other than Chapters?

A Centuriae of 2,500 Astartes?

A Phalanx of 3,000?

etc....

I like this. 1,000 always seemed like an absurdly small number to be operationally efficient in the way the fluff describes them. I mean they have the resources of an entire WORLD in most cases. They should probably have the manpower to accompany that. Not to mention the loss of one company is a catastrophic loss to a traditional chapter of Marines, might as well give them the capacity to actually sustain losses.

[Wade Garrett]

5 Astartes = 1 Point

 

5 Points = 1 Star

 

5 Stars = 1 Cluster

 

5 Clusters = 1 Galaxy

[Brother Heinrich]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying Wade

[Noctus Cornix]

Neither do I, to be honest...

[Wade Garrett]

Eh, not important. Not really.

 

Here's a serious thought:

 

Perhaps each Legion splits itself a different way, according to their role and preferred method of warfare? The Imperial Hounds might be willing to divide into smaller than Chapter sized Squadrons focused around their ships to further their mandate of keeping the spacelanes of the Imperium safe and secure.

 

Meanwhile the Iron Hoplites might be 3000 strong Phalanxes, and so on.

[Noctus Cornix]

People doing what they want to do in the Warhammer universe? Free will?! IMPOSSIBLE

[Wade Garrett]

Well, the Legions were organized in almost every which way you could think of, and unless Angron picked up Guilliman's "Use my book or you're a heretic!" I can't see any of the Loyalists trying to force their ideal system on everyone else...

 

Wait. Jonson WOULD do it, but would he be in position to do so post Heresy?

[Conn Eremon]

That's a good idea, Wade, though I'm not sure I want to deal with it in actuality. You'd have some Legions who break up down to a single hundred-man unit and some with many thousands.

 

For simplicity's sake, it might be best to decide on one.

Millenials might work, in recognition of Fulgrim's sacrifice.

 

Edit: Again, I post slow and miss updates.

 

Jonson is the equivalent of canon Roboute. Big, powerful, and thanks to not committing to the Siege, still so.

 

Edit the 2nd: Perhaps when the Imperium comes to Jonson and he relents and rejoins, this is a condition of his return?

[Ace Debonair]

Ya know, if Fulgrim stays alive to stand alongside Konrad for the big final battle, that means I'm gonna need to work out what happens to him afterwards.

I really like the idea of him killing some super-sized daemon on some planet or other and then getting executed while he's too beaten up to fight back. But if Corax falls at Terra, it might need to be Sanguinius who kills Fulgrim.

Although really any of the traitors could do it. I'd kind of like to see Roboute do it as a sort of mirror to the canon.

That said, Roboute could also deliberately lock Fulgrim up with any old Greater Daemon and then move the rest of his forces back so he can order an orbital bombardment on Fulgrim's position, making sure the Dragonslayer dies horrifically without actually taking the risk of confronting him.

Not honourable, but pretty efficient.

EDIT:

I'd be ok with there being a fixed size for the Chapters/Phalanxes/Mobs/Hordes/Clans/Others, like 3,000, and then some of the legions deviating from it. I could see Jonson eventually conceding the Imperial Hounds the opportunity to work in smaller groups - they'd be even less of a concentrated threat when spread so thinly anyway.

[Conn Eremon]

I thought Corax killed Fulgrim on Terra? So. assumed the fight with the Greater Daemon was on Terra as well.

 

Well, if you want him to die off the Throne World, I could see Barabbas laying it on. I take it then that Fulgrim is the canon Ferrus?

 

We'd need something for Terra again, though. Corax is Horus, all pumped up with Warp juice. It'd take the Emperor to kill him, and even then it required the sacrifice of a son to do it. Without Fulgrim, we just have Perturabo. With the recent expansion on Jonson, he is no longer present.

 

What if we swap him out for Sanguinius? Perturabo goes against Corax, the two fight each other to a bloody standstill, enter Sanguinius. Perturabo, since heathens wants him to live, is forced to retreat.

 

Corax and Sanguinius fight their way through the last of the defenses, reach the Throne. Corax stands poised, blade overhead, when Sanguinius' burning sword spears him through. Cue "You are no god, but I will be" statement, Corax dies betrayed. When Sanguinius finishes off Corax and his present sons, but before he could do the same to the Emperor himself, the reinforcements Perturabo sent for arrive.

 

Enter Perturabo with either Angron, Anubis or Magnus. The two succeed in blocking him and fighting him off, while arriving Chainsworn drag their broken idol away. With their Warmaster slain, and those Primarchs who ultimately don't care about the Warmaster outnumbered, they are forced to flee Terra.

 

You know, I imagined Sanguinius with a burning sword, but now that we say he is at Ullanor and plans the Emperor's fall, what if it is the Emperor's own blade? The son of a god, wielding a god's blade, seeking ascension himself.

[Noctus Cornix]

Not going to lie, I'm not particularly fond of that idea. Having the arch villain (no matter who it is) being snubbed off so anti-climatically just rubs me the wrong way.  Also, Heathens said he doesn't want Perturabo at Terra when I originally presented the idea of the two fighting.

 

I was under the Impression it was Curze and Fulgrim who were supposed to fight Corax.

 

Edit: Concerning the Emperor's Sword, I like it but I think it would be better left in say Fulgrim's hand, kind of like Excalibur 'only those with pure intentions may wield it'.

[Wade Garrett]

One of the storylines I like...well, I like the IDEA of it more than how it has, with a few exceptions, been handled in the canon Heresy, is the rise of the Lectio Divinatus.

 

But how could that be worked in here? The Imperial Hounds are a spiritual/pagan/superstitious Legion, but not a religious one.

 

Sanguinus's "I was a god/then I wasn't/but I will be a god again" is very different from canon Lorgar's "God Dad, I'm your high priest!" +No you aren't+ Hey. We're god dads and we could use a high priest.

 

So how? And then, inspiration. ROBOUTE BARABBAS! But WHY? "Religion is the opiate of the masses." And when the masses are all doped up they are more likely to go along with Roboute's

Five Year Plan to restructure their planet.

 

Perhaps he began by playing on people's superstitions and traditions to manipulate the peasants of Barbarus, and the Lectio is just a more sophisticated game with the same general rules?

[Conn Eremon]

Forgot about Curze, and I thought heathens just didn't want to die. Corax's your baby, so if you don't want him backstabbed, that's fine.

 

Edit: However, it appears Fulgrim dies away from Terra.

[Ace Debonair]

Forgot about Curze, and I thought heathens just didn't want to die. Corax's your baby, so if you don't want him backstabbed, that's fine.

Edit: However, it appears Fulgrim dies away from Terra.

Uh, my whole point was Fulgrim dies AFTER the siege of Terra so he can still be part of the big battle with Corax. Sorry if I didn't make my idea clear.

EDIT: It's only an idea, anyway. Fulgrim can totally die in the climactic battle if everybody prefers.

[Conn Eremon]

Aha, misunderstood. Nevermind then. The Headsman gets another notch on his axe and Fulgrim gets a new title, Corax falls to the blades of many.

 

Perhaps Konrad falls. Corax should kill someone. He is nearly as powerful as the Emperor himself here.

[Ace Debonair]

Aha, misunderstood. Nevermind then. The Headsman gets another notch on his axe and Fulgrim gets a new title, Corax falls to the blades of many.

 

Perhaps Konrad falls. Corax should kill someone. He is nearly as powerful as the Emperor himself here.

 

If Fulgrim needs to die there, he could do. A Double KO, so to speak.

 

Can't get a much more glorious death than taking the Arch-Traitor with you, right?

[Brother Heinrich]

So who would be at Terra as it stands now?

[Ace Debonair]

Er, Konrad, Fulgrim and Corax are at Terra, I think.

Dunno who else at this point, although there's plenty of room for other Primarchs.

[Conn Eremon]

Corax and Fulgrim, Konrad are confirmed.

 

There will be more, though. We've been discussing the final battle, but the over-all siege upon Terra will have more. The majority of the red team, and a smaller number of blue team.

 

Who is there on the Loyalist side of things depends on what happens during the war. Jonson is occupied, Lorgar may be as well. Dorn and his Legion wipe themselves out, but they aren't part of the 9 vs 9. We should have three of us take the place of the Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven guard, who will not be present at Terra. We can shift some things around, but we should still have that "Oh crap, we are losing" aspect to the Loyalists.

[Wade Garrett]

I don't see Lorgar at Terra, and Cormac had the Hounds being ambushed by Leman's Corsairs, so they would seem to be a good candidate for a "Shattered" Legion. Although that might make Lorgar's pyrrhic victory at Fenris problematic.

 

More on The Sons of Barabbas:

I'm wondering if Sanguinus didn't introduce him to Nurgle in his guise as the benevolent Grandfather, rather like Magnus started his Legion's damnation?

 

Also, I'm not the biggest fan of the "Fat Zombie" look of canon plague Marines. I'd almost prefer to the Post Heresy Sons to be a force of withered, bitter old men, twisted within their power armor with white beards tucked into their helms as they call down plagues and pestilences in the name of the Crow God.

 

Perhaps with the post change gene seed causing accelerated aging in those implanted with it, so they can remain a horde of Sarumans, Angus Scrimm's...hmmm. A Legion of Tall Man's.

[Conn Eremon]

I like it. I've never been a fan of Plague Marines, either. Or Noise Marines for that matter.

 

Edit: So we have the Imperial Hounds taking the place of the Raven Guard or Salamanders, depending on if we go for the missing in action angle.

[Ace Debonair]

I don't figure the Astral Wolves will be at Terra. Lupercal is probably as sour on Corax's ambition as he is on the Imperium's oppression.

This leaves him free to scrap with other people who aren't at Terra, like maybe Perturabo or Jonson. I'd incline towards the latter, actually, if only because Jonson harbours his own ambitions of Empire building, or in Lupercal's eyes, tyranny.

And since I don't think for one second our Jonson is above fighting dirty, it'll be a war made of equal parts ambushes, decoys, feints, and unrestrained brutality.

A cold, confident, strategically savvy commander who's never short of a plan against an unpredictable, charismatic, guileful rabble-rouser who revels in plunging enemy worlds into total anarchy - sounds like a good match to me!

In contrast, I'm all for Bron and the White Scars being at the Siege of Terra. They'll be throwing forbidden magics around like they were going out of fashion, conjuring daemons and hurtling into the fray to slaughter any possible resistance.

In fact, Bron could be the one to sound the retreat when Corax goes down.

Maybe, anyway, depending on who else is there.

EDIT:

I also never really liked that the Plague Marines apparently suffered from the Fat Death.

And any legion that can be described as 'a horde of Sarumans' is immediately a contender for Best Legion.

[no I'm alpharius]

Part of the feeling of outnumberedness/futility is down to, IOT, three legions being all but wiped out and another three too far away leaving the three legions (fists, scars, blood angels) facing all but two-three (iirc, night lords, Iron warriors, alpha legion, other than the emperor who is alpharius in disguise, obv) rebel legions. 

 

In this timeline there doesn't yet appear to be a betrayal and massacre. this takes out two Primarchs, three legions and leaves another shouting "nevermore!" to all and sundry. This sets up the helplessness in the end game.

 

I've alReady mooted XX and XXI being sent to die or be turned in some far-off hellhole. I'd suggest at least one other legion gets treated in a similar way, or is deliberately sidelined by an ally of Corax.

 

perhaps to show that things are serious, someone has to go down like a mug, with a dagger in his back. I can imagine Corax preemptive purging those who he can't trust, at the hands of a couple of very loyal lieutenants. 

[no I'm alpharius]

Fat fingered post on tablet. Sorry.

[Conn Eremon]

I can dig that. Jonson vs Lupercal.

 

Lupercal I see striking unpredictably, fast moving. More about inciting unrest than meeting Jonson in open battle. Hits first and fades away.

 

Jonson would be the more responsive, a great lumbering machine on Lupercal's tail. Quickly reactive, the First Legion would respond to each action quickly and in strength. Sometimes Lupercal's men slip away, sometimes catching them and bringing them to ruin.

 

As the war goes on, Lupercal's anarchist methods lose their advantage. Jonson's cold, brutal methods in putting down rebellions instills a fear too great for such tactics to be as useful as they were in the beginning. Jonson's genius allows him to predict and outmaneuver Lupercal more and more frequently, though never as easily if it had been other brothers.

 

It'd be an interesting war. I was trying to think who would go for supply lines and resources, and I actually think both would. Lupercal would do what he could to hinder and slow Jonson's over-bearing warmachine. Jonson would do what he could to force Lupercal out in the open and come to grips with him. They would circle around each other for some time.

 

Edit: Looking at what we got so far, I think Anubis and Magnus are ideal for the other two Shattered.