Alternate Heresy Community Project

[Aqui]

Angron had self-esteem issues?

I was under the impression he was just worried about becoming a mindless rage-monster.

That's how I understood him. Bit like Bruce Banner and the Hulk, constantly on edge about losing control, but keeping it together (for now). I saw no whiny git issues with him at all.

 

I've been trying to come up with other ways of having Principio falling to Chaos that doesn't involve his current "issues". Whilst I haven't come up with anything, I haven't given up yet.

[Conn Eremon]

I was under the same impression. His actions pre and post Heresy seem like the actions of a man who is certain of his ideals, even though he is the only one to fight for them. To me, that is the mark of a man with a healthy sense of self-esteem.

[Ace Debonair]

I think Wade meant Angron has doubts in his own ability to keep his cool and maintain control under pressure, which is roughly in the same vein as Fulgrim and Principio's respective doubts about their relative worth as Primarchs.

 

For what it's worth, I'd personally still say it was different enough, and makes our Angron stand out both from canon Angron and canon Guilliman.

[Wade Garrett]

As I see it, Angron doubts because in his heart of hearts he wonders if he's really no different than Barabbas or Jonson, with all his ideals and good works a mask over a hunger for war and power.

 

Which is somewhat justified, insofar as most of the Primarchs, both in canon and the Coup, became rulers, and all were warriors.

 

This is something I've been trying to work into Angron's character for a while, but it didn't crystalize until Cormac said something in Thunor's modelling thread about the Celestial Lions being "true goodness in 40k".

 

To me, a truly good person, a righteous person, isn't someone who is serenely self confident in their goodness and righteousness.

 

It's someone who has doubts. Who wavers. Who questions themself...and yet remains on the straight and narrow anyway.

[Conn Eremon]

Nah, Wade's just being a Mr. Greedyhands, wanting his Primarch to be troubled too.

 

In all seriousness, I agree, Wade.

 

But let me see if I got Principio's schtick down. At first, he feels like he has always been the more favored (Why? Dammekos sounds like he would more openly favor Etiamnus from the beginning. Might need clarification), but finding Dammekos last words, and perhaps seeing what his new father is more interested in, makes him suddenly doubt his ascendancy. Which makes him want to prove it, or regain it.

 

That's his moment of doubt. Am I as great as I thought I was? As superior? It would be more comparable to our Sanguinius if he ever doubted his own divinity than Fulgrim's sense of self-worth or Angron's ideals.

 

Different enough, I say.

[Nomus Sardauk]

My only issue is that we now have three "Mah SELF ESTEEM ISSUES!" Primarchs: Angron, Fulgrim, and Principio, which is one too many.

 

Don't forget Konrad post-Ullanor (or wherever Big E gets orked in this), even if it is caused mostly by Sanguinius's taunting.

[Conn Eremon]

You know, I have come to terms with the fact that in the Guilliman Heresy, Chaos essentially gets consolation prizes. Second and third hand picks. What if Chaos is first refused? This (The Guilliman Heresy) happens.

 

That is fine. It is still a fun story to explore. Chaos is ultimately not weakened by this fact.

 

So, really, if people want to think that this is the Emo Heresy, let them. It doesn't mean that it isn't worth exploring, or that we should change it up so that it won't seem to be. If we have Primarchs that are conflicted, that is fine. It isn't like the canon Primarchs have a shorter share of woe are we, lords of humanity. You know?

[Ace Debonair]

Also, Fulgrim and Konrad get past their emo stages post Siege of Terra, and Principio goes into full on Superiority-Mode after topping his twin, leaving Angron with plenty of room on the self-doubt front for the rest of the story.

 

Not to mention that it all causes the characters to evolve somewhat. Fulgrim goes through more training montages than a Rocky marathon so he can, in his view, keep up with his brothers. Konrad has a revelation that not everything is preordained, as best I can recall, and Principio becomes utterly convinced of his own greatness and gets a little bit chaos-y in the process.

[Noctus Cornix]

I'm pretty busy with school at the moment so it might take a few days before I can actually get any sort of work on my fluff. Sorry guys.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Bit beyond the heresy I know, but I had an idea for a "cursed founding" or rather just an unlucky/short lived successor

The Knight's Astral
Formed as part of the 16th founding, the Knight's Astral set out from Prospero like all of the line of Ensarhaddon, to find a world to call there own and enrich which their Primarch's gift.
The 16th founding had been raised with the aim of guarding the shipping lanes of the Jerusioch region from a recent increase in the activity of priates and cosairs of xenos, renegade and traitor legion origins. As such, the Knight's Astral and their sister chapter, the Crimson Hospitillars spent their first decades of existence patrolling the region, taking recruits from it's planets before each taking the planets Castamere and Isildion respectively.
Along with the seven other chapters of the 16th founding, the Knight's Astral brought a level of security unseen in the region in centuries, cleansing Asshvur of the green skin menace and shattering the power of Rufus "Mockbeard" Kjarl, a fearful lord of the Red coraisrs.
And so it seemed the knight's Astral were set to become a renowned and gloried chapter, and yet, six hundred and forty seven years after their founding, Castamere fell.

Kellor Teach, Kjarl's second in command, had escaped the destruction of his master's fleet, and had in the time since risen to power in warbands, eventually claiming one as his own, making deals Sorcerers of the White Scars and the Son's of Barabbus. Launched raids upon a dozen systems and convoy routes, Teach drew two companies of Astral Knight's out to Geass's World, where they were destroyed. At this time, three companies of  knights Astral were taking part in the Imperium's response to the 5th Black Crusade, with another on patrol on the opposite side of the Jerusioch region, thus when the Blood Wolves fell upon Castamere, only two full companies stood to defend it, along with elements of the first and tenth that had been spread amounts all the active companies.

Whilst the Plague hulk Bubonica Eterna and Teach's own flagship, "Despoiler of the Stars" were destroyed in the orbital battle, the renegade fleet was able to carry out Exterminatus upon Castamere, eradicating it's lush forests, people and the work of the knights Astral. As the fires cooled and the Blood wolves assaulted the Fortress Hospice of the Astral Knights, they used a weapon that none had expected. Knight's Astral.

By some fell means, Teach had captured those of the Astral knight's who had succumbed to their progenitor's flaw, and now unleashed them as shock troops against their own chapter.
Fighting tooth and nail to the Chapter's Apothecarion, Teach and his sorcerer's began the ritual that would shake all of the blood of Anubis to the core.
It was at this point that the Crimson Hospitallers and the Lions Crusading, a sister chapter of their founding of Angron's line, arrived in system, gutting the traitor fleet and deploying to the surface.

Yet just as Teach realized his forces were trapped he completed the dark invocation he had been conjouring.
Every Knight Astral and Crimson Hospitiller on Castamere fell to their flaw then and there, dead or living. Unknown to them, every brother of the Knight's Astral who died elsewhere in the galaxy that day fell to the flaw, their insane rage turned upon their brothers. 

By the end of it, the Lion's crusading who had deployed nearly their entire might, were reduced to but three companies, and would spend the next century rebuilding.
Of the five companies of Crimson Hospitillars who went to the defence of Castamere, none returned.
Those Astral Knights remaining were barely a company, the Chapter master having rising after being caught in a plasma blast, and then killing the High apothecary of the Chapter.
Upon hearing the events after the relayed to him by the Lord Beskion of the Crimson Hospitallers who had been presented the head of Teach and informed by Julion Narisiskly, Pride Master of the Lion's Crusading, Kheru'N Sebek High king of Prospero and Grand Master of the Solar Tigers called a council of the High Apothecaries of all the chapter's of the Blood of Anubis, and summoned those Knights Astral that remained to Prospero.
Whilst finding the mass unrising of the Astral Knights to have been caused by Teach's cable, which the Lion's Crusading had exterminated, it is a fear of every High king of Prospero since that some should learn the Rubric of Teach, or even perfect to be able curse all the sons of the Ensarhaddon to undeath.

[Ace Debonair]

The idea of having the Rubric happen to a cursed founding Chapter born from Prospero thanks to a vengeful Space Wolf Red Corsair makes me all warm and fuzzy on the inside.

That's a sentence I never thought I'd type, but there we have it.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Thanks, the idea was I wanted to do an event that would explain why the flaw is considered a flaw rather then just a quirkthat sometimes ressurect your dead at the price of their sanity. The Solar tigers and their successors hope the work they have done since has protected their bloodline from a repeat of the Rubric of Castamere, their drive to remove it driven by the need to ensure it cannot happen. I'm thinking that perhaps their could be a position similar to the cannon Salamander's forgefather  that focuses on hunting down any rumors of anyone attempting to recreate it, who takes it upon himself to ensure no bodies or geneseed of the Anubis's line is captured or used in such rituals again.
But that's all for once I can get more decent pre/heresy era stuff written.

[Wade Garrett]

Gentlemen. We have...A LORE PROBLEM!

 

Namely, over the beginning of the Heresy and the events at Vilamus.

 

There has been a great deal of flip flopping on which Primarchs are doing what, if Corax is sneakily luring Perturabo and Lorgar into a trap or openly naming them rebels and outlaws, the motives of Primarchs like Konrad, Melek, and Magnus when the party starts, and so on.

 

I propose we all get together and decide on what happened, who was involved, and why they did it.

 

I would particularly like to hear from noctus cormix, since as the mastermind behind the Warmaster he'll have the yea or nay on most of this.

[Adra'Melek]

Personally I saw Melek as being stuck somewhere (like Sarosh in the DA book), then on to join all the other legions taking on the Orks. The hear the Emperor has fallen, at the same time the planet launch an attack (again, like Sarosh). The Infernal Guard go a little crazy and kill every living thing on the planet (perhaps daemons are involved as well?).

 

Then they spend a significant amount of time tidying up rebelling systems (using the loss of the Emperor as an excuse). This gets worse until Corax convinces Melek that Jonson is rebelling. infernal Guard trudge in, fight the First Legion, then paranoia convinces them the astral Wolves are also traitors, going on further killing spree that results in the Ascension.

 

I'm happy to take suggestions.

[Conn Eremon]

Sounds good to me, Thunor. I don't think Sarosh needs Daemons to work. Good enough on its own.

[Wade Garrett]

My understanding of it was:

 

The Master of Mankind is dead. LONG LIVE THE MASTER OF MANKIND!

 

The Emperor sits atop his Golden Throne, and Lanista Corax rules as his proxy. The setbacks the Great Crusade experienced have been reversed, and each day more xenos species and recalcitrant human realms fall to the Legio Astartes, with fresh tithes of flesh and blood swelling the Imperium's coffers.

 

But all is not well in Corax's kingdom. Angron, the Steward of Ultramar, is an outspoken critic

of the harsher methods Corax favors in growing the realm.

 

However, due to his actions in allowing the Galactic East to rise against the Imperium, the Lion of Ultramar finds few who will listen to his complaints, and he spends most of his time far away from the centers of Imperial power setting his own house back in order after the ravages of the Jyhodh.

 

While Corax is content to ignore the muttering of the pariah Primarch, the concerns of the Iron Hoplite and the Imperial Hound are not so easily dismissed.

 

Perturabo is diplomatic in expressing his reservations, Lorgar considerably less so, but both become thorns in Lanista's side.

 

And then a significant chunk of the Imperium, Jonson's so called "Palatinate", goes dark. Taxes are withheld, reports are either insultingly vague or not filed at all, and the scouts and spies tell of the First Legion and its Alae expanding to ever greater numbers.

 

And so Corax acts. The Blackened Fists and Minotaurs are dispatched to Jonson's sector in a show of force...that becomes a bloodbath as the Haunted and the Devourer run wild across the Palatine's worlds.

 

Shocked at this turn of events, Lanista humbles himself before Lorgar and Perturabo, requesting their aid.

 

He and the IVth Primarch will attempt to convince Rogal and Ferrus to stand down. Meanwhile, Lorgar and Leman Barbedor will muster their Legions at the Boros Gate and make preparations to resolve matters should their mad brothers not see reason.

 

And with every admission of his doubts, every mention of his failure, Corax laughs inside.

 

In truth, the VII and the X are acting exactly as he commanded, preparing to turn the Palatinate into a mass grave that will hold the Iron Hoplites as well.

 

Perturabo will face three Primarchs and their Legions, while Lorgar's death has been given to Barbedor as a reward for his good work.

 

The Corsairs will fall on the Hounds and destroy them, then both they and Lupercal's Astral Wolves will combine forces with the Warmaster to seal the First Legion's fate.

 

But it all goes awry. Perturabo bleeds, but it is the Minotaurs and Blackened Fist who are shattered in the bleak wastes of Vilamus.

 

The Hounds are dealt a horrific blow, but many escape and for all Leman's boasting no one witnessed the Cleftjaw's death.

 

And when Lupercal does arrive, he brings with him the bitterest news of all:

 

Fulgrim, the Regency Council, and the Fabricator General of Mars have seized control of the Sol System, and had the mind numbing audacity to accuse LANISTA of heresy and betrayal!

 

And all the while, a black angel smiles as his grand design takes form....

[Conn Eremon]

There was discussion on there not bring enough shatterin' occurring at the Shattering. The Executioners were the main ones tossed around for adding them in, and discussion on that front stalled only because Heinrich never came around to say go. I ended up letting them in for that reason.

 

Now, admittedly that might not be necessary anymore. With Aquilanus turning the XX and XXI adding 1:1 to to the loyalists and traitors to the XX adding 0.5:0.5 . The Blackened Fists are no longer the extra Legion canceling themselves out.

[Ace Debonair]

I'd almost be tempted to say Principio and Etiamnus should have their final showdown at The Shattering, partly to play up what a key event it is and partly because the name is just so appropriate.

I'd also say having the Executioners be there and still take some significant damage before the Fists and Minotaurs turn against each other would be pretty neat.

It gives Konrad time to have his 'oh no, it's all inevitable failure from hereforth' moment before deciding 'screw that noise' and going to Terra anyway.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, I was thinking of it like this:

 

Vilamus was designed to kill a Legion.

 

Committing 1 Legion to destroy another one will leave even the winner mangled, unless one stacks the odds (as was done at Calth in canon, or our Boros).

 

Therefore, Corax would want a more favorable balance of numbers than his 3 (Chainsworn, Minotaurs, Blackened Fists) against 2 (Executioners and Iron Hoplites).

 

Secondly, why would Konrad Dominus and his head takers be on Lanista's hit list anyway? It isn't as If he's going to be objecting to using ruthless violence to bring more worlds into line.

[Conn Eremon]

Considering that sort of logic works fine for all other conflicts, one Legion taking on another one in a surprise attack, a three on two attack seems no less favorable.

 

Secondly, Corax would care more about lack of respect for his authority. Many of the "kinder" Legions might not respect his authority over his over eager applications of violence, but Jonson wouldn't. Dominus wouldn't. Their lack of respect comes from a disdain of the source of authority. Jonson may never feel Corax was worthy of it. Dominus may be the same, but for different reasons. Not because he thinks he'd be a better choice, but because Corax is no Emperor. And only the Emperor is worthy.

 

But I admit, I am just playing Devil's Advocate. I would just like our Shattering to be more on par of canon Isstvan V.

[Wade Garrett]

Oh dear.

 

I'm not coming off as "ALL YOUR IDEAS SUCK! WE MUST DO IT MY WAY!" am I?

 

Because that's not...what I'm trying to say is, I'm not opposed to the Executioners being shattered per se, but I'd like to see some reasoning behind it besides "We needed another Legion to get the stuffing kicked out of it and Konrad drew the short straw".

 

Am I being clearer now?

[Conn Eremon]

No, it is cool. Honestly, my main reasoning for asking you to shift our discussion over to the thread was because I liked the original idea but wanted to see better logic put into it, and I felt that was more likely if we got everyone involved. "Hey Primarchs who hate me, one of our brothers who you know also hates me has suddenly and without warning rebelled against the me. I mean, the Emperor. Unfortunately, the two Legions, that you all hate me for using as I do, are currently doing that thing that I usually have them do that you hate me so much fir, over in that area I just said rebelled. Want to help me stop them?"

 

It feels like too obvious a trap. As compared to Isstvan, where seven Legions attacked three traitors, not knowing that half their number were also traitors. Except for the Night Lords. Not sure what happened there.

 

So, to that end, I liked the reasoning behind swapping it to the Shattered Legions go confront Corax on the Blackened Fists and Minotaurs, and get blindsided when those three Legions open fire. If it hadn't been for Dorn's heart growing five whole sizes that day, those Shattered there would no longer exist as a Legion. Whether that is just the IV, or the IV and the VIII. With Pert there to tell Corax off for his overly violent ways and Dominus is there because Corax doesn't get to decide if a brother needs killing. Only the Emperor can ever make that choice.

 

I think it is fair to sat we want the same thing, simply better reasoning for whichever path we choose. I like the original idea, but I feel that the reasoning behind the later shift was more sound. To that end, I vote we keep it as is, with the current shift. If better reasoning can be developed for the original idea, I will change my vote.

 

As for the Executioners, either way I would like them in. Yes, because we need something more there, and the VIII are simply the squarest peg for the square hole. But I am sure we can develop some good reasoning behind it, if what I have already mentioned is not enough.

[Wade Garrett]

I can see how my idea looks ridiculous when viewed in that light.

 

But your alternative...

"Okay, Corax, Konrad and I don't trust you. We so don't trust you that we're not letting you go alone to talk to the two crazy guys. OH GOD THAT DOESN'T EXIST, THE GUY WE DON'T TRUST AND THE TWO CRAZY GUYS ARE SHOOTING AT US! HOW COULD WE HAVE EXPECTED THIS!"

 

My thoughts:

 

Nobody knows Jonson hates Corax. Nobody knows WHAT Jonson's deal is, he's holed up in his little power base not talking to anyone.

 

Secondly, when I say Lorgar and Pert criticize Corax, I don't mean they're at canon Angron levels of

"This Crusade is slavery! SUCK CHAINAXE AND DDIIIIIEEE!"

 

Think Guilliman wagging his finger at Alpharius and Horus. Corax kibbitzing about Perturabo and Mortarion. That level of dislike.

[Conn Eremon]

 

"Okay, Corax, Konrad and I don't trust you. We so don't trust you that we're not letting you go alone to talk to the two crazy guys. OH GOD THAT DOESN'T EXIST, THE GUY WE DON'T TRUST AND THE TWO CRAZY GUYS ARE SHOOTING AT US! HOW COULD WE HAVE EXPECTED THIS!"

 

. . . I'd be lying if I said I understood any of that. But fair enough, the current version likely has holes in its reasoning too.

 

As far as your thoughts, also fair enough. I had assumed a bit more vocally disparaging sentimentality.

[Wade Garrett]

Okay, okay. OKAY.

 

Let's look at what we can agree on it:

 

Dorn and Ferrus are being very naughty boys in the Palatinate.

 

Corax, Perturabo, and Konrad all go out there (to talk them down? To put them down?)

 

Leman and Lorgar are supposed to join up with them, but that never happens.

 

There's surprise treachery, then Dorn decides to be all heroic and ruin the trap, and the Executioners and Iron Hoplites escape annihilation.

 

Does all that look right?