IA Advice Dark Angels successor

[Nazariel]

Hi everyone!

 

Let me start by introducing myself as I'm new on this forum: I'm French (I guess you'll realize that while reading me) and I used to play Wh40k long years ago (mostly Eldars). I recently decided to get back in touch with my love for miniatures and start over with a SM army, more specifically DA whose robed veterans and Deathwing knights minis are terrific! What I love above all in the hobby after painting is writing, so I started writing an IA for my chapter.

 

However I'm experiencing some difficulties as I'm not sure whether my IA is consistent enough.

 

Here is how I imagine the main characteristics of my chapter. By the way, its name is Angels of Penitence.

• The Angels of Penitence were created as part of the 10th Founding (M35) during the Nova Terra Interregnum, to help eradicate the renegades and rebel forces in the Segmentum Pacificus. The chapter was created with the gene-seed of the Dark Angels.
• Like their primo-genitors they are taciturn and independent, doing what they consider to be right no matter what others say. 
• Although they are successors of the Dark Angels, they were not aware of the Fallen at first: the Inner Circle considered they had been created to serve the purposes of the High Lords of Terra, and consequently the secret of the Unforgiven was not their business.
• After the reunification of the Imperium, the Angels of Penitence were ordered to secure the systems on the Veiled Region's border. There they met a Fallen and found out the secret of the Unforgiven.
• They decided not to talk about it to the Dark Angels, however they wanted to know more and began to look for other Fallen Angels.
• Throughout the centuries they managed to find some Fallen. But unlike the Unforgiven they didn't kill them all. A few of them who did not turn to chaos and were still loyal to the Emperor were spared, and even enrolled in the chapter. The Angels of Penitence had always regretted the Great Crusade and the way the Administratum had taken the power over the old Legions since the Horus Heresy, and meeting these Fallen revived their frustration and anger.
• They currently navigate through the galaxy, looking for other Fallen Angels to be enrolled or killed - depending on their allegiance. The Inner Circle noticed on several occasions that some renegades had disappeared while the Angels of Penitence were in the area. Since then there is a certain tense between the Angels of Penitence and the Unforgiven chapters.
• I want my chapter to be more and more independent and insubordinate, and as a friend of mine is planning to play a Grey Knights army I think the Angels of Penitence will be stamped Excommunicate very soon, becoming a renegade chapter.

These are only the main ideas and I surely have a lot of things to clarify and details to add, but before writing any further I'd like to address you a few questions:

• I've read, mostly in the DA Codex, that the High Lords almost never use the DA gene-seed when they order a new Founding ("M33: There are many SM Foundings during this era, but the High Lords purposefully do not seek the gene-seed of the DA Chapter for any of them."). However in M35 while the Imperium was split in half, perhaps the need for SM was so important that the High Lords may have ordered the use of the DA gene-seed? Otherwise, as the Angels of Penitence are a very monastic chapter, may they have been created from the Guardians of the Covenant?
• Is it possible for a chapter created from the DA gene-seed to be unaware of the secret of the Unforgiven? How do the DA decide whether a new chapter must be informed or involved in the Inner Circle?
• I want to play the vanilla SM Codex, so is it possible for a DA successor chapter not to follow the same organization (no Deathwing and Ravenwing)? Though it would be logical if they are not aware of the Fallen Angels.

Thanks in advance for any reply and any advice or criticism!

[Bryan Blaire]

Why would they decide not to talk to the Dark Angels about the Fallen, but also decide to keep it a secret that they knew about the Fallen? That's the kind of thing that topples empires or possibly gets a Chapter torn apart by the Unforgiven once they get suspicious. After all, the DA have likely killed Inquisitors and apparently a Black Templar Strike Cruiser just for getting close to the secret or even suspicious material.

 

I can't think of any reasons you couldn't have a Chapter using DA gene seed, but trained like a Chapter of Marines from some other lineage and not using Unforgiven training cadre. However, as you noted, then they probably don't have a Deathwing or Ravenwing analog, don't fight like the Unforgiven, and generally aren't Unforgiven, so to me it almost begs the question of "Why make a Chapter that uses DA gene-seed then?" Wouldn't the story practically be the same if they had IF gene seed, or were simply very laconic Ultramarines?

 

Additionally, welcome to the Bolter and Chainsword, and you are a very brave person to jump straight down to the Liber for your first post! :D

[Nazariel]

Why would they decide not to talk to the Dark Angels about the Fallen, but also decide to keep it a secret that they knew about the Fallen? That's the kind of thing that topples empires or possibly gets a Chapter torn apart by the Unforgiven once they get suspicious. After all, the DA have likely killed Inquisitors and apparently a Black Templar Strike Cruiser just for getting close to the secret or even suspicious material.

Well, here's how I concluded to such a secret:

• The Angels of Penitence enrolls some Fallen because of their common concerns.
• They can't tell the Dark Angels about that, otherwise I guess they'd be hunted by the Unforgiven and destroyed in a few years.
• Since they have to hide the truth to the Unforgiven, I thought it'd be much easier if they were not members of the Inner Circle. I imagine how difficult it'd be for a member of the Inner Circle to lie about the Fallen, looking straight in the eye of the Supreme Grand Master!

I may be wrong about the last point. Would you suggest that the Angels of Penitence should be part of the Unforgiven - therefore aware of the Fallen - and change their mind about them over the centuries, without the Inner Circle's knowing?

I can't think of any reasons you couldn't have a Chapter using DA gene seed, but trained like a Chapter of Marines from some other lineage and not using Unforgiven training cadre. However, as you noted, then they probably don't have a Deathwing or Ravenwing analog, don't fight like the Unforgiven, and generally aren't Unforgiven, so to me it almost begs the question of "Why make a Chapter that uses DA gene-seed then?" Wouldn't the story practically be the same if they had IF gene seed, or were simply very laconic Ultramarines?

I agree that it may not be easy to understand! Actually I first wanted to play an army of Fallen before I realize it would be kind of unrealistic. But I already had painted some models from the veterans box and used the iconography of the Dark Angels, so now I feel compelled to share some stuff of my chapter with the Dark Angels. That won't stop the Angels of Penitence from sharing the stubbornness of the Imperial Fists, especially concerning the Great Crusade. And after all I love the idea of being a renegade among those hunters of renegades, so let be it!

As I see it I should choose between two options:

1. The Angels of Penitence are successors of the Dark Angels, meaning that they should be aware of the Fallen and member of the Inner Circle, what can make lies and secrets a bit more difficult and dangerous.
2. The Angels of Penitence are successors of a "lower level" chapter, like Guardians of the Covenant for example, trained like a "normal" chapter and unaware of the Fallen at first. The Inner Circle doesn't really care about the Angels of Penitence, what makes easier hiding the Fallen among their ranks.

Am I wrong? Which option would be the best?

[Bryan Blaire]

I guess I should have asked it a little better:

Why would the Angels of Penitence take a lone Space Marine to be a member of their Chapter? Even if they don't let him become a member of the Chapter, he's going to have to present them a story, and if its a Fallen, it will probably involve some kind of detectable lie by a Librarian. That will likely reveal him as a traitor, which is a death sentence amongst a Chapter of loyal Marines.

 

Even if there isn't a lie and the Fallen is believable, he is either going to be telling the Chapter a story that shows that one of the greatest Chapters of the Imperium are a bunch of filthy traitors or not telling them anything at all. One way they have nothing to hide, no secrets have been shared, but the other way, why in the world would they not tell the Inquisition? That secret provides the Chapter with some political clout (assuming it is believed and the Inquisition begins to move based on it), etc, and since the rest of the Imperium doesn't know about the secret, then the Angels of Penitence have no reason to know just how far it all really goes and just how far the Unforgiven might go to keep it a secret, and really have no reason to think they need to keep it a secret.

 

As far as the Successors thing, if they have DA gene-seed, then they are a Dark Angels Successor, regardless of who their training cadre is. Also, the Guardians of the Covenant are definitely listed as members of the Unforgiven, I really see no reason to think they don't know about Fallen or are somehow "lesser" than any other Unforgiven Chapter.

 

Also, they can use the winged sword iconography without having to be a DA Successor. Heck, an entire Chapter's name and panoply were reused once, and it wasn't even discovered until both were destroyed. Iconography gets reused.

 

I think your story can work, you just need to write out the chain of events with 40K logic and answer all the who, what, where, when, why and how questions each time. The why and how will be pretty important on your story working out the way you want it to, because I think those two are somewhat lacking right now.

[Nazariel]

Well the Angels of Penitence are a loyalist chapter, at least according to them. However, although they never knew the times of the Great Crusade, they despise what the Imperium has became and the way the Administratum rules the humanity in name of the Emperor (I'll surely have to explain why they are this upset). Of course they won't claim their feelings publicly for they know they would be excommunicated immediately.

Then they met a Fallen. He was a renegade but he did not turn to Chaos, he still claimed his allegiance to the Emperor. He was interrogated for several months by Chaplains and Librarians who learned the truth about the Dark Angels. Then the Fallen repented for what he did on Caliban but he seemed to share the same feelings than the Angels of Penitence about the contemporary Imperium. Against all expectations he was spared and contributed to find more Fallen whose experience could be determinant in the Angels of Penitence's crusade to regain the Imperium's past glory.

They would be considered as traitors if anyone discovered that they were pursuing their own ends with the help of a Fallen. Even if they put the Inquisition on the track of the Dark Angels, the Unforgiven would focus all their strengths to destroy the Angels of Penitence immediately. That's why the Angels of Penitence did not talk about it.

I even think that the Angels of Penitence may turn to hate the Dark Angels, not because of their secret itself but because they have been kept out by their primogenitors, and because the Unforgiven want to eradicate the Fallen instead of sparing those who repent and deserve a second chance.

As you can see, the Angels of Penitence would look like more a renegade chapter, even if it's not - for now - their official status. I've read the novel "Angels of Darkness" and I loved the way Astelan seems to be almost more pure than Boreas, despite his betrayal... but was it really a betrayal?

I think the main work I have to achieve is to think about what caused the Angels of Penitence to despise the Imperium to that point. Maybe they were refused a homeworld while they were very weak after a bloody war...

[Gripharius]

If I were you, I would try to find a simpler way to get where you want to be.  In my opinion, what you have now kind of strains credulity...  It seems unlikely that the Angels of Penitence (AoP) would taken in this Fallen.  It seems unlikely that the Fallen would repent.  It seems unlikely that the AoP would spare him after knowing who he was and what he had done.  It seems very unlikely that they would find even more repentant Fallen.

 

The occurrence of a single unlikely event is one thing, but multiple successive unlikely events becomes ever more difficult to believe.   

 

A lone Chapter Master who learns there is some secret the Unforgiven are harboring, but who is unable to learn the details despite repeated attempts.  Several instances of the AoP being diverted from their own missions by "orders" of the Dark Angels and used to support missions against the Fallen without being told why or what was going on.  Grudges building between the AoP leadership and the Dark Angels because of being used like this.  The AoP are jaded by the Imperium and the DAs' secrets make them even more jaded.

 

Then, eventually, during one of those "support" missions, actually stumbling upon a Fallen... but rather than a repentant Fallen, one who is silver-tongued and manipulative, one who uses the AoP's ignorance of the Fallen and their acrimony towards the DAs to fool them.  He tells them of the Fallen, keeping to the truth mostly to avoid the piercing insight of the Chaplains and Librarians, but twisting things just enough to prey upon the AoP's own biases towards the DAs.

 

Perhaps the AoP end up executing the Fallen anyway, eventually realizing he is a servant of Chaos.  But the thoughts are already planted.  Even when the AoP confront the DAs, they still don't get satisfactory answers, leading more credence to the false story the AoP have heard.  So the AoP set off on their crusade to regain the Imperium's lost glory. 

 

Just kind of thinking out loud here, but something like that seems more organic and believeable to me.  Instead of having Space Marines go against their natural instinct (to distrust outsiders or to show forgiveness and tolerance), use those natural tendencies to advance the Chapter theme you want to foster (i.e., show their distruct of outsiders by distrusting the DAs, have the natural secrecy of the DAs compound that distructs, etc.).

 

 

 

[Bryan Blaire]

Just realize that further books have shown that Astelan was in fact a traitor and the Lion was truly loyal, not necessarily the most obedient and definitely stubborn and let his emotions get the better of him, but loyal in his heart.

 

I think the question you really haven't answered to me is "Why do they keep all this a secret from the Dark Angels/other Unforgiven, when they (and the Fallen) would have no way of knowing that the Dark Angels are keeping anything a secret?" It's part of the lynch-pin to your story, but within the world of 40K, those outside the Unforgiven don't actually know what secrets, if any, the Unforgiven are actually keeping, so no one would really suspect that something like the Fallen needs to be kept out of public knowledge.

 

Also, have they really been capable of dodging any and all probes/inquiries by the Unforgiven all by their lonesome if the Unforgiven really have become suspicious of them? How many Fallen have the Angels of Penitence actually captured that they have been able to piece an actual story together, since it actually doesn't seem like the Dark Angels and the rest of the Unforgiven have themselves caught all that many (maybe 200-300 at the outside - after all, even the most successful Interrogator-Chaplain in a 10K year history only holds 12 black pearls, which probably means 3 times that in Fallen that didn't repent - so almost 50, and that may be being too generous), and a single Chapter clearly would possess less resources than the demi-Legion Unforgiven do. After all, considering how twisted Astelan's story was from what we've seen in the HH series, would any one, two or even three to five Fallen even really know what happened on Caliban/with the Dark Angels Legion?

 

Edit: Gripharius has a very good set of points and spelled it out much better than I have!

[Nazariel]

I like the idea of the DA using the AoP for their secret purposes, thus creating a growing rivalry between the two chapters. Actually that was my very first idea but I gave it up. To me, if the Inner Circle wants to keep the secret safe I'm not sure it will involve any chapter that is not part of the Unforgiven, precisely to prevent outsiders to find a Fallen. However I indeed like the idea of a Fallen planting the seed of distrust.

 

What bothers me more is that you both say that it's nearly impossible to play a few Fallen in my army (I mean less than 5, as HQ or sergeants, or maybe as a small veterans squad). If the AoP are a renegade chapter, does it seem that impossible that a handful of Fallen may be found and enrolled over several centuries or millenia? I admit that it was the point of my chapter until now.

[Gripharius]

 

 If the AoP are a renegade chapter, does it seem that impossible that a handful of Fallen may be found and enrolled over several centuries or millenia?

 

I'm not an expert on the DAs or the Fallen, but from everything I know about them, it seems like it would be a rare event for the AoP to just find one single Fallen.  It would then be even more rare for that Fallen to repent, and even rarer still that the single repentant Fallen would join the AoP.  So just having one would be very, very uncommon. 

 

Finding a second Fallen that would do all of that increases the unlikelihood exponentially. 

 

Could they have stumbled across 3 or 4 that would repent and join them over several centuries or millenia? Yes, it is possible.  But it is so highly unlikely as to seem impossible and make it very difficult to believe. 

 

Because even if they did stumble across 5 repentant Fallen over a millenia, to have them all be members of the Chapter at one time would mean that those Fallen would also have had to avoid dying in combat over all of those many, many years serving with the Chapter.

 

I have always been under the impression that finding a "repentant" Fallen is extremely rare, and most of the Fallen that "repent" do so while being "interrogated" very intensely by other Space Marines -- interrogations which the subjects rarely survive, no matter how repentant they are. 

 

I'm not saying that you can't do it, I'm just telling you that it is hard for me, as a fan of WH40K, to believe, and I was trying to see if there may be some other ways for you to get the tone or flavor in your Chapter that you are looking for. 

 

For example, perhaps the AoP come to learn about the Fallen in the way I suggested above, and an apparently "repentant" Fallen plants seeds of doubts in the command group of the Chapter, but later reveals his true Chaotic nature.  Maybe the Chief Librarian at the time decides he has failed the Chapter in not discerning the Fallen's true nature earlier, and so he sets off on a personal quest of penance to atone for his failure.  Maybe he spends centuries hunting the Fallen, finding every scrap of information he can about them.  Perhaps he makes a pilgrimage back to the system where Caliban was before it was destroyed, or something similar.

 

Then he compiles all of his knowledge, his suspicions and his theories about the "true story" of the DA's secrets about the Fallen in a tome that he returns to the Chapter before his death.  AFter that, a small cadre of elite officers in the AoP study this tome, and continue his work as part of the Chapter's mission.  They add to the tome over the centuries, including with information they gleam from interrogating the few Fallen they find, etc. 

 

So you could have this small group of dedicated, elite warriors in the AoP who would have a special knowledge of the Fallen that other AoP marines might not have, and who would be dedicated to the hunt for the "truth" about the Fallen, while the Chapter continues its own missions.  These guys could serve the same purpose as the repentant Fallen you wanted to include.

 

I admit its not as "cool" as having a squad of actual repentant Fallen in your Chapter, but its just one possible way you might add that mystery and theme to your Chapter without straining credulity too much.  Just something to think about.

 

[Nazariel]

According to the DA Codex, not all the Fallen have turned to Chaos: some of them "have realised that their actions on Caliban were wrong [...] some attempt to atone for their sins, integrating themselves into human societies to work towards a noble cause".

They would not be servants of Chaos and may sincerely regret what they did on Caliban. However, repenting for one's sins doesn't necessarily imply denying one's beliefs. I think that these Fallen and their idealistic vision of the Great Crusade (wrong as it may be) could match the contempt of the AoP for the Imperium and the DA (because of the behavior you described in your previous post for example).

I see that as a rapprochement between some lost and lone repenting traitors and the opposite, loyalist warriors who feel betrayed and tend to be renegades. Both are "unstable", and may find some kind of support or purpose in joining with each other.

In the worst case, if you really think that enrolling one or two Fallen would be too weird, the AoP may just be "accommodating" with the Fallen they might meet.

Whatever, I really appreciate the ideas you suggested, and I think they can complete my own idea if not replace it totally

[Gripharius]

 

According to the DA Codex, not all the Fallen have turned to Chaos: some of them "have realised that their actions on Caliban were wrong [...] some attempt to atone for their sins, integrating themselves into human societies to work towards a noble cause".

 

That reduces my skepticism a little, but I still feel it would be a very rare thing for a single Chapter to have an entire squad of repentant Fallen.  One or two, however, is a little more believeable. 

 

I do think the concept of a "sub-theme" of your Chapter being the pursuit of Fallen that may be redeemed is very interesting, creative and unique.

[Nazariel]

If I assume the AoP were aware of the Fallen (as an Unforgiven chapter), maybe they have disobeyed the orders of the DA for capturing a Fallen because they didn't want to stop their mission (protecting a world from an invasion?). Or maybe they were fighting against a powerful enemy, and the DA suddenly left them alone on the battlefield to capture a Fallen, causing a whole company of the AoP being totally destroyed by a stronger foe (that's good I don't want Ravenwing in my chapter ). Or maybe both.

Whatever the cause, the AoP got angry against the DA and put into question their loyalty, accusing them to be obsessed by hunting the Fallen at all costs, thus abandoning the Imperium.

What could then happen? I guess the DA would banish the AoP from the Inner Circle, right? Do you think they would be ready to fight and eradicate the AoP for their disobedience, fearing their secret is not safe anymore? Or would they inform the Ordo Hereticus that the AoP are heretic?

[Gripharius]

I hope some others will weigh in, but personally I like the idea of a slow, simmering feud developing between the Chapters.  Something small at first that grows greater and greater through centuries of misunderstandings, perceived slights, long-held secrets, harbored grudges, etc. 

 

If I were you, I'd go with the AoP being kept in the dark about the Fallen by the DAs, and the AoP never revealing that they know about the Fallen, but continuing to harbor grudges over it. 

 

I think if the feud ever develops to the point where the DAs think the AoP are Fallen sympathesizers, or would do anything other than execute Fallen on sight, the feud between the AoP and the Das might escalate to a whole different level.