[HH1.0] Salamanders Tactics

[caladancid]

Has anyone tried Solar Auxilia as an allied detachment? Or another Legion for that matter? I am trying to add allies that make sense and are good, although I supposed I could default to Knights as a nice way of adding some hitting power.

 

I would like to try out some Veltaris squads in Dracosans as a second wave. The lack of assault vehicle hurts SA a bunch but of course it wouldn't matter if the marines already had tied up the target.

[Caillum]

Generally, you want to use Allies to cover any weaknesses you have in a Primary Detachment. Veletaris are a short-range anti-infantry unit, a role Salamanders already excel at.

 

Something with long-ranged anti-tank would be better I think. Tank Commander in a Vanquisher or a pair of Knights, like you suggested. Given you need 2 Knights in an Allied Detachment or a Questoris Primary Detachment, you have some versatility there in where you want them. Might be able to get away with 1 Salamanders Troops choice! :)

[caladancid]

Yeah that is true. Also the more I think about it, it is unlikely a veletaris fireman squad would kill anything that managed to hold up the Firedrakes.

 

I am coming up on a blank though on potential allied Legions. Perhaps RG for speed?

 

The knights would definitely be the easiest. I think I read that HH bk 6 would have the rules for Wardens updated. Might be fun to have one of those in there. Of course, the Acherons look amazing. Just need to get one.

[Caillum]

Salamanders and Raven Guard are Sworn Brothers, so there's definitely a precedent there for allying. RG can go for the fast, hard-hitting alpha strike while the Sallies steadily advance up the board.

 

Knights are awesome in 30k. But they are pricey...

[Charlo]

Pyroclasts seem like they're hard to use in the RoW. Sure they're troops but with only LR as transports it's a shame. They could've done with Rhinos maybe...

 

After you kit out some Drakes in a Spartan with a medicae and Vulkan you've hardly got much of a Luxury in 2.5k for multiple LR transports.

[caladancid]

Yeah, that drakes+Vulcan combo doesn't leave a lot of room. Good thing it does awful things to whatever it touches.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

Pyroclasts seem like they're hard to use in the RoW. Sure they're troops but with only LR as transports it's a shame. They could've done with Rhinos maybe...

 

After you kit out some Drakes in a Spartan with a medicae and Vulkan you've hardly got much of a Luxury in 2.5k for multiple LR transports.

 

I've been wanting to try out a dual-Achilles build with Pyros. Driving them up to objectives, disembarking the Pyros and holding fast will make for one hell of an immovable object. Achilles are absurdly tough, can roll with multi-meltas for the sweet MC bonus, Pyros need AP2 to shift due to them all rocking artificer, overwatch with those flamers is painful and they can also take an Apothecary to further the immovable object theme.

 

I think Pyroclasts and Achilles go together like World Eaters and Chainaxes.

 

I was thinking then to invest in fast-moving anti-tank units. My new favourite thing of the month is attack bikes with multi-meltas.

 

Put the tacticals in rhinos and you've got a brilliant objective grabbing list.

 

Perhaps I should back it up with a Typhon...to battlescribe!

 

Edit: ok here we go:

 

Praetor - On a bike w/ Archeotech Pistol, Dragonscale Shield, Mantle, MC paragon, melta bombs, refractor

 

Troops

2x 9 Tacticals w/ 2x Sarge w/AA & 2 Rhinos w/ Heavy Flamers

1x 5 Pyros w/Warden w/PFist, MC Projector + Squadwide meltabombs

1x 5 Pyros w/Warden w/Power weapon, MC projector + Squadwide meltabombs

 

Elites

2x Artificer Apocs w/augury scanners

 

Fast Attack

3x Attack bikes w/multi-meltas & melta bombs

3x Attack bikes w/multi-meltas & melta bombs

 

Heavy Support

Achilles Alpha

Achilles Alpha

 

LoW

Typhon w/AC

 

IIRC Achilles have 6 transport capacity, so Pyros go in with apocs. Trundle to objectives, say 'come at me, bro' while attack bikes melt things and typhon blasts anything cowardly enough to not charge into the flame projectors?

Edited December 22, 2015 by The God-Potato of Mankind

[ElectricPaladin]

 

Pyroclasts seem like they're hard to use in the RoW. Sure they're troops but with only LR as transports it's a shame. They could've done with Rhinos maybe...

 

After you kit out some Drakes in a Spartan with a medicae and Vulkan you've hardly got much of a Luxury in 2.5k for multiple LR transports.

 

I've been wanting to try out a dual-Achilles build with Pyros. Driving them up to objectives, disembarking the Pyros and holding fast will make for one hell of an immovable object. Achilles are absurdly tough, can roll with multi-meltas for the sweet MC bonus, Pyros need AP2 to shift due to them all rocking artificer, overwatch with those flamers is painful and they can also take an Apothecary to further the immovable object theme.

 

I think Pyroclasts and Achilles go together like World Eaters and Chainaxes.

 

I was thinking then to invest in fast-moving anti-tank units. My new favourite thing of the month is attack bikes with multi-meltas.

 

Put the tacticals in rhinos and you've got a brilliant objective grabbing list.

 

Perhaps I should back it up with a Typhon...to battlescribe!

 

Edit: ok here we go:

 

Praetor - On a bike w/ Archeotech Pistol, Dragonscale Shield, Mantle, MC paragon, melta bombs, refractor

 

Troops

2x 9 Tacticals w/ 2x Sarge w/AA & 2 Rhinos w/ Heavy Flamers

1x 5 Pyros w/Warden w/PFist, MC Projector + Squadwide meltabombs

1x 5 Pyros w/Warden w/Power weapon, MC projector + Squadwide meltabombs

 

Elites

2x Artificer Apocs w/augury scanners

 

Fast Attack

3x Attack bikes w/multi-meltas & melta bombs

3x Attack bikes w/multi-meltas & melta bombs

 

Heavy Support

Achilles Alpha

Achilles Alpha

 

LoW

Typhon w/AC

 

IIRC Achilles have 6 transport capacity, so Pyros go in with apocs. Trundle to objectives, say 'come at me, bro' while attack bikes melt things and typhon blasts anything cowardly enough to not charge into the flame projectors?

 

 

That's... a really nice list, actually.

[Charlo]

I too am a fan of that... Not enough Primarch for me though :P

 

What's the points for that?

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I too am a fan of that... Not enough Primarch for me though

 

What's the points for that?

 

2.5k.

[Charlo]

 

 

I too am a fan of that... Not enough Primarch for me though

 

What's the points for that?

2.5k.

Hmm nice, that's the limit I want to build to when I start a Legion.

 

But I really want to drakes and Vulkan :P although they unit is probably overkill... Maybe just normal terms...

[God-Potato of Mankind]

2.5 to 3k is the sweet spot for Heresy, imo.

 

Firedrakes are glorious, as is of course Vulkan. I have a deathball fully painted of 10 Firedrakes, all with TT/SS and a HF. They're supported by a Praetor, Primus Medicae, Vulkan and their own Spartan. They're great. They're also so one dimensional. Drive at the bad guy, smash him in the face.

 

Firedrakes pretty much relegate you to rely on an eggs in one basket approach, which is fun, but leaves other cravings unfufilled. Every Legion has great Terminator units, but they also have great non-Terminator units like Pyroclasts. At a 'normal' points level it's fairly mutually exclusive to have 'Drakes & 'Clasts, so rather than going with the typical route, go for something fresh!

 

I thought Firedrakes were the be all, end all. It may be my meta, but they got a little bit traumatised by Lorgar, Gal Vorbak, Erebus & Kor Phaeron in melee. So I have returned to the drawing board. The store manager I fought has always maintained he's more afraid of 'clasts, but I'm not sure if he's trying to trick me. They're a fairly great unit on paper and not prohibitvely expensive at... 175pts for 5? I think. Only 75 more than a Tactical squad! You could easily work in 20 2+ bodies roaming the board, in a game of AP3 massacre. Glorious potential is glorious.

 

Plus Firedrakes are mostly relegated to the typical Spartan or perhaps Kharybdis. At their points level, a turn 2 assault from a Caestus is bleh and means no Primarch.

 

It just seems to me that Firedrakes eschew the tactical contingencies I prefer in my lists nowadays.

 

That said, in a mega 4-6k point game I would soooo put them in a Spartan with Vulkan and friends.

[caladancid]

That is a really good list idea for running Pyroclasts. Great models also, some of my favorite that FW makes (minus those stupid hoses).

 

My only hesitation is in your example above with Lorgar and Co hurting the Firedrakes. If they are hurting firedrakes, are you just abandoning CC entirely? And if so, I'm assuming that you think shooting that unit off the table would work the best.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

That is a really good list idea for running Pyroclasts. Great models also, some of my favorite that FW makes (minus those stupid hoses).

 

My only hesitation is in your example above with Lorgar and Co hurting the Firedrakes. If they are hurting firedrakes, are you just abandoning CC entirely? And if so, I'm assuming that you think shooting that unit off the table would work the best.

 

Pretty much yes. T4 suffered against his deathblobs attacks at higher initiative. I wasn't running Vulkan though, so unsure how much that would equalise things. Naturally as dank as our Praetors are, Illuminarum bats them off the table with terrifying efficacy.

 

Transfigured Lorgar is just....horrifying to fight. Horrifying. I would not hesistate to drop a Dreadhammer shell onto my 'Clasts if he got into combat with them. It's entirely a 'dust off and nuke the site from orbit' style affair for him with me.

 

I'd consider taking a magna-melta predator squadron if I was going to 3k and task them purely with blasting Lorgar into a melted puddle of whiny goop.

Edited December 22, 2015 by The God-Potato of Mankind

[Carraigf]

Hey folks - this may be a stupid I'd question but do Contemptors get the 5++ buff against melta from the row?

 

Having buyers doubt as I finalise my first largish order from FW - right now is mech tacs and pyros with a Sicaran in support but could max out the squads and take Contemptors for similar points - plus easier to cart around :)

[1ncarnadine]

Hey folks - this may be a stupid I'd question but do Contemptors get the 5++ buff against melta from the row?

 

Having buyers doubt as I finalise my first largish order from FW - right now is mech tacs and pyros with a Sicaran in support but could max out the squads and take Contemptors for similar points - plus easier to cart around

 

Absolutely. It's to "any model with an armour value," which definitely includes Dreadnoughts of any kind. Note that it doesn't actually matter though, as they already had a 5++ to shooting.

[caladancid]

Hey folks - this may be a stupid I'd question but do Contemptors get the 5++ buff against melta from the row?

 

Having buyers doubt as I finalise my first largish order from FW - right now is mech tacs and pyros with a Sicaran in support but could max out the squads and take Contemptors for similar points - plus easier to cart around

 

If you really want to go crazy with dreadnoughts, take Nomus Rhy'tan and have a field day with HQ dreads.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

So gents, what new things did we get?

 

I know of the RoW that gives us Fear and nudges to use Librarians. 

 

To really utilise Fear I guess we need to be in CC, or should it be used to deter charges? I'm at a loss as to what to build around with this. 

 

I came up with this - Vulkan Alpha Strike followed by ramtacular veterans. Idea mainly being deterring people from charging and generally smashing them with charges and using the Fear tests to lend staying power.

 

No idea if it's stupid or not, but with no DS restriction I went all out:

 

Assuming Kharybdis gets Drop Assault tho.

 

+++ FEAR Sallies (3000pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Legion Praetor [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Digital Lasers, Dragonscale Storm Shield, Mantle of the Elder Drake, Mastercraft a Single Weapon, Paragon Blade]

 

+ Troops +

 

Legion Tactical Squad [9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla]

Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier [Heavy Flamer]

Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour]

 

Legion Tactical Squad [9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla]

Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier [Heavy Flamer]

Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour]

 

+ Elites +

 

Firedrake Terminator Squad [4x Dragonscale Storm Shield, 5x Firedrakes, Heavy Flamer, 5x Thunder Hammer]

Firedrake Master [Artificer Weapons, Chainfist, Dragonscale Storm Shield]

 

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Furious Charge, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Melta Bombs, 2x Melta Gun, 3x Power Weapon]

Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Artificer Weapons, Power Fist]

 

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Furious Charge, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Melta Bombs, 2x Plasma Gun, 3x Power Weapon]

Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Artificer Weapons, Power Fist]

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Legion Caestus Assault Ram

 

Legion Caestus Assault Ram

 

Legion Kharybdis Assault Claw

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [XVIII: Salamanders]

 

+ Lord of War +

 

Vulkan

[caladancid]

Why did you go for the Kharybdis?

 

I will admit to having no real ideas for the new RoW. I am hoping once I have the book in front of me it will become more clear. I mean, fear is good, and we already have incentive to be in close with master crafted meltas and flamers.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I really want one/alpha strike of Firedrakes and Vulkan causing Fear?

 

That said a regular list rocking extreme close range dakka could work, as few things would want to charge you right? A lot of Pyroclasts or Pfist Terminators could be good? Survivability to fist things back because enemies WS is reduced?

Basically I have no real clue how to apply Fear effectively, beyond knowing in 30k no ATSKNF makes it more useful in neutering enemy CC.

[caladancid]

Yeah I definitely think the Fear list would work well with some of the other ideas people were discussing involving a ton of Pyroclasts. The issue there is no longer getting pyros as troops. Maybe it will turn out to be just a nice benefit to other lists that coincidentally qualify?

 

Does anyone use Librarians in a list? I never have put one into a Salamanders army, so I would be interested to hear if people actually think they are worth it especially in the new RoW.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

It gets very HQ heavy due to Lobby being support. 50 base then 35 then 40 for ML2. Not even including wargear.

 

Then you need a regular officer..

 

Pyros can have a dedicated Phobos so you could easily rock a trio of those.

 

Bear in mind I'm using outdated rules but you can get for 3k

 

Libby

Delegatus

 

2x 10 tacs w/ AA/combigun Sarge in HF rhinos.

 

 

3x Pyros w/ MBs & Sarge w/ Pfist

3 AC Phobos w/ HF pintle

 

Typhon w/ AC & LC sponsons.

 

That's 28 pyros (not 30 to fit HQs) 20 tacs and 6 tanks. It should do work.

[ElectricPaladin]

It looks like our favorite little green men were touched but lightly by the awesome feather, 

 

New Generic ROWs

• rite representing traitors from loyalist legions, gives boosts against loyalist marines, especially from the same legion 
• rite making jetbikes troops, all units must be skimmers, jetbike or flyers
• rite representing loyalists from traitor legions, similar to other rite but different boosts (not applicable)
• rite making contemptor and regular dreadnought talons troops not elites, must take forge lord and primius medicea as additional HQs.
• rite making predator squadrons troops, sicarans (regular only) elites and allowing a single predator or sicaran as a HQ choice, all non-vehicle units must have transports
• rite making the primarch a HQ choice not LoW (still has the price of failure) allowing him under the 2k limit, no LoW slot. but he dies, all scoring units cease to be scoring, only denial
• rite allowing any battle-automata (castellax, vorax, domitar) as their respective FoC slots in a legion army (non-complusory), must include 1+ cortex controller, a forge lord must be taken, and only more forge lords or praevain may be taken as consuls
• rite allowing assault squads to deep strike turn 1, on the turn they arrive, they can only be snap fired at, and gain hit and run from turn 2 onwards, all units in the army must be able to deep strike or be transported in flyers
• rite removing 'support squad' rule from recons marines, all units deployed with scout or infiltate (actively used) gain shrouded during turn 1, no terminator units may be taken
• zone mortalis rite, terminators are troops, 1 unit of terminators may be given deep strike for free, breachers when all in base contact gain +1 to invul saves
• rite of war for traitor legions only, must take an allied detachment of militia/cults. detachment gains stubborn in their deployment zone, and do not yield victory points for being killed. primary detachment all gains outflank, must hold whole primary in reserves and can't deep strike (not applicable)

 

New Legion-Specific ROW

• cause fear
• may chose to play additional game turn if random length in is use (instead of rolling)
• librarians gain a special psychic power, which is a replacement 'pyromancy' primus power. str5 ap1 beam 18" range, and units that take casualties from it must take a morale check regardless of the 25% rule, with a negative modifier equal to the number of unsaved wounds caused.

 

Rules Changes & New Units/Characters

• Cassian dracos reborn: gets recovered from isstvan 5. now living-ish machine god. all existing rules, but much lower side and back armour. gains cybertheurgy and a unique rite which allows him to posses enemy automata and shoot with them if he wins a roll-off.
• Xiaphas jurr: salamander chaplain who is a also a level 1 psyker.
• legion praevian and delegatus are now published, no different than rules in faq
• new consul type called the 'herald; gains 'rite of command', support officer and a banner. the banner's rules changes depending on if you're a loyalist, traitor or blackshield. each has their own rules, the blackshields banner confers fear and +1ld to friendly units within 12". the loyalist banner confers +1ws to all legion astartes within 12" to a max of ws5. the traitor banner confers +1" to charge and run distances and may reroll 1's to hit in assaults to units within 12".
• leviathan seige talon is in, same as pdf rules but with the added cyclonic melta lance 18"str9 ap1 heavy3, melta
• contemptor-cortus is here. basically a contemptor with lower strength and side/back armour, has fleet and move through cover. gains a flat 5+ invuln. it had all the usual dreadnought weapons and has an 'atomatic overcharge' which allows it to pick a bonus from a list but at the end of the turn, must roll a 2+ or lose a hull point. cheapest of the FW dreadnought classes and is an elites choice.
• rapier quad-launchers are now their own unit. initially the same as before, but has only frag shells, and can then buy shatter, incendiar or splinter shells (anti-armour, anti cover, lower str but rending). if the army has a siege breaker, the unit can upgrade to carry phosphex canister shells which are exactly what you think.
• the vindicator has its updated rules for the laser destroyer array, and is now a a tank squadron of 1-3. 
• mastodon is a beast, 14 all round with 10 hull points and 2 void shields. all the melta weapons on the front are actually a single weapon rules wise. 12" range, str 9 ap1, heavy4, blast (3") melta and each pen against a building or fortification becomes D3 pens. holds 40 models. it can also carry up to 2 regular dreads or contemptors (not dreados or levis). they count as 10 models each and count towards the 40 models limit.

 

(Summary courtesy of Garro over on the Heresy 30k Forums)

 

What do you think about these changes and additions for Salamanders in particular? I think that the new rules for Cassian Dracos might finally be cool enough to get me past my "meh" reaction to the model (I'm not a fan of box dreads in general). I'm very excited by the idea that the Salamanders who survived/avoided Isstvan are going to start getting... weird. The beginnings of the Promethean Cult and the Salamanders becoming the fire-loving pyromaniacs of 40k!

 

Rules-wise, I think the mastadon seems like a really fun model. The herald is going to be a very good choice as well.

 

Your thoughts?

Edited February 9, 2016 by ElectricPaladin

[Spinsanity]

New Generic ROWs

• rite making jetbikes troops, all units must be skimmers, jetbike or flyers  (no Deep Strike makes this a forgettable choice)
• rite allowing assault squads to deep strike turn 1, on the turn they arrive, they can only be snap fired at, and gain hit and run from turn 2 onwards, all units in the army must be able to deep strike or be transported in flyers (no Deep Strike = can't use this ROW)

Hold on, I think I missed something; what's this about no DS ?

[our_baz]

Personally, the tweaks are nice. Would like to of seen rules for Pyre Guard, as we have already got some primarch specific honour guards out or soon to drop.