Debski Bowden Lorgar and the like....

[depthcharge12]

We've been down this road brother...it cant remain this way, the modern story wont hold up if it does.

Yes, I'm repeating myself in this thread, I know.

BUT IT MAKES ME SO DOGGONE ANGRY EVERY TIME IT COMES UP!

Come join the World Eaters.

WE *like* angry. :D

[depthcharge12]

Whatever, depthcharge.

 

You want a Primarch that was in Guilliman's Dauntless Few? A Primarch that was willing to throw down with his most beloved brother to the death? A Primarch whose Legion has a tragic flaw?

 

I give you Old Metal Hands himself. And HE did all that before it was cool.

 

But you'll never see people on this forum waxing poetic on how the Emperor should have made Ferrus the Warmaster.

 

Presumably because Ferrus spends his time engaged in smelting iron and other similarly manly activities instead of taking half the day to moisturize his skin and condition his hair so he can be FAAAAAAAAAbulous.

 

 

Oh.

 

 

and who gets beaten up by someone fabulous?

 

 

 

It rubs the lotion on the skin, so it can cut the heads off again.....

[Wade Garrett]

Exactly!

 

Horus made sure Ferrus would fall at Isstvan V because he knew if they turned the Gorgon the Ruinous Powers would take one look at the man beast of Medusa and the Warmaster would be out on his ear.

 

What, you thought Fulgrim's little "Hey. We're gonna kill dad. Wanna help?" was an actual attempt at turning him? Nope, that was just to make sure he fell in the trap at the Drop Site.

 

Actual attempts at turning loyalists involve Word Bearers, lots of ephermal Warp nonsense, and are directed at Primarch's Horus knows won't immediately eclipse him. Like Guilliman.

 

And remember, where was Horus at the Massacre? As far away from Ferrus as he could get. Because he knew. He KNEW who the real boss Primarch of him was, and it wasn't Sanguinus. :p

[Daddywarcrimes]

I really do wish Ferrus had gotten the better of Fulgrim on their first meeting, beating him senseless but having the Phoenix Guard hack their way through the Morlocks to rescue the Phoenician and teleport away.  

 

Then, the fight on Istvaan feels like Ferrus trying to finish the job he was cheated out of and Fulgrim embracing the daemon to erase the embarrassment of almost being beaten to death by someone as unsubtle and "unskilled" as Ferrus.

[Wade Garrett]

Fulgrim didn't win the first fight. Ferrus Manus beat Ferrus Manus.

 

No sarcasm this time. That's what really happened, he blew up a sword in his face.

 

Can SANGUINUS or HORUS make swords explode? They can't? Well, then.

[Vesper]

 

Emps sees Horus strutting around the Vengeful Spirit covered in Sanguinus's blood, and he still can't get his fight on? And here I thought I was being unfair and overly hateful to the Angel.

He loved him so much, he actually took his time. You know, he obliterated Horus' soul, then Horus tells him he's sad and all, and then, the emperor, full of love, obliterates the already obliterated soul.

Fatherly love, right there.

[Daddywarcrimes]

Forgot about that.  Hadn't read Fulgrim in a while.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

Emps sees Horus strutting around the Vengeful Spirit covered in Sanguinus's blood, and he still can't get his fight on? And here I thought I was being unfair and overly hateful to the Angel.

He loved him so much, he actually took his time. You know, he obliterated Horus' soul, then Horus tells him he's sad and all, and then, the emperor, full of love, obliterates the already obliterated soul.

Fatherly love, right there.

Is that how it happens? I only remember one obliteration, after the heart to heart. Before that, it was a "fo' srs guize, gloves gone" blow that knocked the warp juice out of Horus.

 

You know, the one that should have opened the fight.

[TheAurelian]

 

Whatever, depthcharge.

 

You want a Primarch that was in Guilliman's Dauntless Few? A Primarch that was willing to throw down with his most beloved brother to the death? A Primarch whose Legion has a tragic flaw?

 

I give you Old Metal Hands himself. And HE did all that before it was cool.

 

But you'll never see people on this forum waxing poetic on how the Emperor should have made Ferrus the Warmaster.

 

Presumably because Ferrus spends his time engaged in smelting iron and other similarly manly activities instead of taking half the day to moisturize his skin and condition his hair so he can be FAAAAAAAAAbulous.

 

 

Oh.

 

 

and who gets beaten up by someone fabulous?

 

 

 

It rubs the lotion on the skin, so it can cut the heads off again.....

put the lotion in the basket or else it gets the hose

[Firepower]

I feel like we've crossed into a strange, uncomfortable place

[Kasper_Hawser]

LOL, I wonder how about 3/4 of this thread suddenly became a raging debate about Sanguinus competency, not to mention the rant against BL authors in general for what they did or DID NOT do to each individual's favourite Legion.

 

To draw back to the original poster's topic, yes I agree that ADB is a fantastic author who has delivered smashing novels so far. By smashing, I mean giving real character to the primarchs who have until recently, been described as two dimensional. Before First Heretic and Betrayer, we only knew of Lorgar as a fanatic who simply wanted something to worship and Angron as a bloodthirsty killer. He turned them around and added dimensions that we didn't know and even loyalists fans like myself who traditionally only like the loyal legions, actually feel some empathy for the traitor primarchs.

 

I think it is unfair to think that all BL authors should emulate the style of ADB. ADB has his own unique style, Dan Abnett as his, along with Swallow, Kyme etc. I think we're being too hard on the other authors who in the end, still have to follow the series bible which may supercedes their own personal preference on how to handle their respective assigned primarchs and legions.

 

The ability to make readers connect to the characters, even inhuman or transhuman ones like primarcchs, that is the true magic of a great writer. And frankly, Swallow did make me connect with Sanguinus so I consider Fear To Tread a good novel for Sanguinus. The famed compassion and connection he had with his own legion I felt was aptly captured and that ALL blood angels considered him more of a father than just a commander, which emulates Sanguinus own loyalty to the Emperor.

 

But if you think that Sanguinus is flawless apart from the genetic black rage, guess again. He was willing to sacrifice himself for his legion rather than the Emperor too, so his loyalty is not as blind as Russ' either.

 

As for his actual prowess in the area of warfare, I think i'll stop here. In the end, they are all primarchs. Unless one outnumbers the other, I think they're all meant to fight each other to a stalemate. (even Lorgar vs Corrax)

[Kol Saresk]

I think it is unfair to think that all BL authors should emulate the style of ADB. ADB has his own unique style, Dan Abnett as his, along with Swallow, Kyme etc. I think we're being too hard on the other authors who in the end, still have to follow the series bible which may supercedes their own personal preference on how to handle their respective assigned primarchs and legions.

I agree that no two authors should be alike. Otherwise we might as well only have one author, not two. Conserves money on both ends.

 

But at the same time, I'm not sure about a series bible that forces them to write to specific styles. It may force what they write about, but not how they go about doing it. Just look at Curze. Three authors were supposed to write about Curze being two bats short of a belfry. Two managed that. The other....... Call me unfair, biased or whatever, but the third portrayal didn't even have a tower, much less a belfry. It was just....... yowzah. Curze is supposed to be crazy, but he's the crazy that likes a stage. Not dying in some maze where anyone who finds his body won't be getting out, much less telling about his death through vindication. Nevermind the fact that he would just "disappear" and his killer would be trapped with him for all eternity. At least until the ship decayed to pieces.

 

So telling the what, maybe. The how? Not so much.

[Kagarre Havariss]

LOL, I wonder how about 3/4 of this thread suddenly became a raging debate about Sanguinus competency, not to mention the rant against BL authors in general for what they did or DID NOT do to each individual's favourite Legion.

 

To draw back to the original poster's topic, yes I agree that ADB is a fantastic author who has delivered smashing novels so far. By smashing, I mean giving real character to the primarchs who have until recently, been described as two dimensional. Before First Heretic and Betrayer, we only knew of Lorgar as a fanatic who simply wanted something to worship and Angron as a bloodthirsty killer. He turned them around and added dimensions that we didn't know and even loyalists fans like myself who traditionally only like the loyal legions, actually feel some empathy for the traitor primarchs.

 

I think it is unfair to think that all BL authors should emulate the style of ADB. ADB has his own unique style, Dan Abnett as his, along with Swallow, Kyme etc. I think we're being too hard on the other authors who in the end, still have to follow the series bible which may supercedes their own personal preference on how to handle their respective assigned primarchs and legions.

 

The ability to make readers connect to the characters, even inhuman or transhuman ones like primarcchs, that is the true magic of a great writer. And frankly, Swallow did make me connect with Sanguinus so I consider Fear To Tread a good novel for Sanguinus. The famed compassion and connection he had with his own legion I felt was aptly captured and that ALL blood angels considered him more of a father than just a commander, which emulates Sanguinus own loyalty to the Emperor.

 

But if you think that Sanguinus is flawless apart from the genetic black rage, guess again. He was willing to sacrifice himself for his legion rather than the Emperor too, so his loyalty is not as blind as Russ' either.

 

As for his actual prowess in the area of warfare, I think i'll stop here. In the end, they are all primarchs. Unless one outnumbers the other, I think they're all meant to fight each other to a stalemate. (even Lorgar vs Corrax)

 

I'm not saying swallow is a bad writer I just feel if you removed the names from Fear to Tread and Flight of the Eisenstein and got someone who'd never heard of the Heresy to read them, they would have no clue that they were by the same bloke. Fear to Tread does indeed capture Sanguinius relationship with his sons well. However the book is rather flat and un exciting in terms of action, i do think Wade is right that the BA and the Angel get touted as badass in the other books, yet we see little of this in Fear. After waiting nearly 10 years for a BA heresy book I feel a massive sense of anti climax. I'm sure others feel the same.

[Balthamal]

I couldn't agree more with this point. 

 

To be fair the build up is handled fantastically imo especially where Ka'Bhanda makes his first appearance, scaring the :cuss out of the no'er do well Word Bearer and saying "Horus Lupercal. Samus sends his regards. Now the game begins." That right there is badass. Super bloodthirster getting ready to beat down and you think Great! :Cuss is about to go DOWN and the next 50 pages are like....meh

 

If JS does pick up the next BA tale and does a smashing job of adding what was missing in Fear to Tread I won't complain in the slightest. So here's to hoping

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

I think it is unfair to think that all BL authors should emulate the style of ADB. ADB has his own unique style, Dan Abnett as his, along with Swallow, Kyme etc. I think we're being too hard on the other authors who in the end, still have to follow the series bible which may supercedes their own personal preference on how to handle their respective assigned primarchs and legions.

I agree that no two authors should be alike. Otherwise we might as well only have one author, not two. Conserves money on both ends.

 

But at the same time, I'm not sure about a series bible that forces them to write to specific styles. It may force what they write about, but not how they go about doing it. Just look at Curze. Three authors were supposed to write about Curze being two bats short of a belfry. Two managed that. The other....... Call me unfair, biased or whatever, but the third portrayal didn't even have a tower, much less a belfry. It was just....... yowzah. Curze is supposed to be crazy, but he's the crazy that likes a stage. Not dying in some maze where anyone who finds his body won't be getting out, much less telling about his death through vindication. Nevermind the fact that he would just "disappear" and his killer would be trapped with him for all eternity. At least until the ship decayed to pieces.

 

So telling the what, maybe. The how? Not so much.

 

Haven't read Vulkan Lives, but judging by the summaries and opinions I've read so far, I guess Night Lords fans do have a reason to be peeved, or even those who have consistently read most of the HH books will agree that the portrayal is one sided and inconsistent in portraying Kurze's state of mind. I am told that stories of the Lion have also been told by at least three different writers with varying degrees of success, the latest and best being Unremebered Empire by Dan Abnett.

 

In this I wholly agree with you, the various BL authors despite their different writing styles, SHOULD be consistent in their characterizations considering they're in the same universe. Unfortunately, Black Library seems to be doing the same mistake as the Star Wars New Jedi Order series: having different writers on the same story series yet not enforcing inconsistencies among them. Before the New Jedi order, the various novel arcs were done by one author, such as the renowned Heir to the Empire Series by Timothy Zahn (creator of Grand Admiral Thrawn).

 

The result is one novel, Luke Skywalker is being a firm advocate of the Jedi serving the Republic despite persecution in one novel, and the next he is wishi washy on how the Jedi is to conduct the war against the Yuuzhan Vong. Han Solo also neing a drunk in one novel and then becoming sober and bloodthirsty in another.

 

So as a result of multiple authors of one general storyline, the term "Too many Cooks Spoil the Broth" comes to mind. In my opinion, if they wanted to do that, they should at least assign a specific pool of writers to deal with certain primarchs and legions, rather than just take lots on who would write the next novel regardless of what they wrote before.

 

Wonder what would happen if we see a novel that was specifically written by TWO authors. Its not unheard off actually, Mercedes Lackey and another author collaborated on an earlier fantasy series called Gryphons I think.

[Kasper_Hawser]

On a separate note, James Swallow does have a weakness in regards to battles which, as many have mentioned, is merely a variation of bolter porn with little epic feel of it. Basically Blood Angels Deploy, smack face, become mad in the process, hero destroys relic, end of battle, everybody reflects. This I will concede, looking back at Einstein and Fear to Tread, the "bolter porn" did seem remarkably similar and bland. Whereas Dan Abnett in Prospero Burns uniquely used a mortal human to see how the Wolves wage war and it definitely..... unorthodox. (see Battle of Oelemic Quietitude and later Battle of Prospero).

 

As a result, as far as the showdown between Kabandha with Sanguinus, or even Kyriss (Slaanesh demon) with Sanguinus, both felt really flat and non epic. Primarch meets daemon. One smacks the other. the end.

 

I still enjoyed the characters though, not sure why nobody likes Raldoron. He seems like a quintesential conflicted Blood Angel to me which captures the general populace of the Blood Angels, while Azkaellon is clearly someone you love to hate. Bloody pompous golden chicken who calls himself a Sanguinary Guard. I especially enjoyed Amitt although the way Swallow wrote Amitt was too similar to Gabriel Seth. All in all, bolter porn aside, Fear to Tread rocked.

 

plus, to reiterate the original poster, we get to see Erebus get some punishment in the end.

[TheAurelian]

Out of all the authors mentioned above why has no one spoken of Ben counter I for one have really enjoyed his books while they normally are a little long in the build up it's usually well forth the wait for how he concludes the stories he writes

[Dumah]

Ben Counter is another hit-or-miss author for me. He did a great job with Galaxy In Flames, which may have to do with the close collaboration I assume he, Abnett, and McNiell had in setting the stage for the Heresy narrative. Battle for the Abyss wasn't on par, in my opinion, though I don't revile it like many others seem to.

[Kol Saresk]

Not to mention Phalanx. I mean, I understand that wasn't HH, but if that is the indicative of his general work nowadays, it might be best if he leaves us with some goodies.

[Dumah]

Not to mention Phalanx. I mean, I understand that wasn't HH, but if that is the indicative of his general work nowadays, it might be best if he leaves us with some goodies.

 

I never made it that far myself. I think I stopped reading the Soul Drinker series around number 4 or 5 (Hellforged, I think)?

[Scribe]

I think I must be the only NL fan with no issues with how they (and Curze) are shown in VL.

[Olis]

I think I must be the only NL fan with no issues with how they (and Curze) are shown in VL.

 

Funny you should mention Vulkan Lives. I have that sitting on my desk waiting for me to finish Angel Exterminatus. ^_^

[Kol Saresk]

The Night Lords weren't really shown in Vulkan Lives.

 

I mean, there was that one scene where they were striking from the shadows and killing people at random while corralling the rest into a courtya-

 

No wait. That turned out to be Word Bearers.

 

Well at least there was the scene with the Hunter-

 

No. That was Word Bearers too.

 

What about the scene where they gunned down civilians to quell a riot?

 

Yeah, I think that was the only scene we see actual Night Lords in actual action. The rest was either aftermath, standing around chuckling like thugs in a B-Rated gang movie or a psychically-induced coma-dream.

 

The Word Bearers got portrayed more as Night Lords than the actual Night Lords did.

 

As for Curze....................

 

I'll direct you to my review.

 

And I'm someone who didn't mind the overall book too much.

[Scribe]

There where some confusing bits, but I thought some of that city purging was the Night Lords for sure? I mean the book intended to be confusing and fractured, at least it seemed so to me.

 

Unfortunately, they really are (at the most stereotyped) a bunch of thugs, we dont have a solid HH novel on the NL's yet, still waiting on ADB...

[Kol Saresk]

There where some confusing bits, but I thought some of that city purging was the Night Lords for sure? I mean the book intended to be confusing and fractured, at least it seemed so to me.

 

Unfortunately, they really are (at the most stereotyped) a bunch of thugs, we dont have a solid HH novel on the NL's yet, still waiting on ADB...

Khar-tan City was. But we only see the aftermath of that. The one at the beginning of the novel was the Word Bearers assault on the planet with the Fulgurite. We see almost no actual Night Lords-related action in this novel. They weren't portrayed. Only Curze was.