A discussion on Kardan Stronos

[BassWave]

So I keep hearing that Stronos said that we need to dial it back on the whole bionics thing. I have not seen that reference at all, so if someone could provide a page number in the codex and quote the specific sentence that would help a brother a lot.

Secondly, I know all of us were... hesitant to accept Stronos when the 6th ed codex came out. My reason for resistance was the fact that it was mentioned that he was trying to dial it back on bionics. However that was when I had no codex and had to rely on second hand info. Once I read the codex and saw no mention of the sort, I calmed down :P Honestly, I like Stronos. I like the fact that he wants the chapter to master emotion, not just discard it. Its how I envisioned our chapter anyway. I never liked the whole emotionless character that the IH in Wrath of Iron had. After burning with the need for vengeance and hatred towards certain legions for 10,000 years (They know what they did! ), it just wouldn't make sense for the Iron hands not to be full of contempt and rage. Controlling that rage and using it to your advantage is... logical.

So aside from that weird bit about dialing back about bionics (which needs to be resolved as to whether its true or not), I don't see a reason to dislike our democratically elected Chapter Master.

[Uaronain]

  I dont know, I like that the iron hands have both extremes..... the rage filled superhuman warriors with smexy bionics.... and cold calculated killer cyborgs with some fleshy bits. Those who embrace the machine god MORE IMO would be more likely to discard emotion anyways and embrace the cold iron and the strength it brings. I think this should be represented in different clans having a different way of going about it without some "chapter master" trying to direct them one way or another. Both sides could hate weakness but go about it in different ways.

 

 

 

(so many spelling errors)

[Bannus]

It never explicitly states that Stronos wants less bionics. But it is inferred that he wants to change the Chapter's perspective of bionics. The small quote indow at the top of page 67 talks about the Iron Hands being nothing without a soul. Combine this with the Clan Council being steered away from the dominance of Techmarines to include Apothecaries and Chaplains.

 

I don't like Stronos because he represents what the Iron Hands shunned - a single Chapter Master leading the Iron Hands. Elected or not, that is his role. I also do not like that he represents a kind of "hope" for the Chapter - another shiny spot among way too many in the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium.

[BassWave]

That's the thing though, I dont see how having a soul means less bionics. Then again, I never liked that aspect of wrath of iron. The way I see it, even land raiders have a "machine spirit". Why would a heavily bionic marine be souless? Lack of humanity im fine with ;)

[Bjorn Firewalker]

That's the thing though, I dont see how having a soul means less bionics. Then again, I never liked that aspect of wrath of iron. The way I see it, even land raiders have a "machine spirit". Why would a heavily bionic marine be souless? Lack of humanity im fine with

A Space Marine will surely argue the point regarding their humanity. As far as they're concerned, they're more human than you or I- that the process which made them Marines, "purified" them of weaknesses that diminish humanity as it should be.

What should humanity be? As many Space Marine Chaplains noted, the galaxy is our birthright. That means we should rule over the galaxy as kings do their lands, or the gods of pre-Imperial legends ruled over their domains. Only the weak are delusional enough to defend their weaknesses as a defining human characteristic; all must be purged so humanity may claim its birthright.

Unfortunately for those who dislike Stronos' portrayal in 'Wrath of Iron', that novel may be the only point of reference for casual 'Warhammer 40,000' fans. His Lexicanum article http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kardan_Stronos doesn't list any references outside of 'Codex: Space Marines' for 5th and 6th Edition, and of the earlier codex, I only remember the throwaway line regarding Razorbacks.

[Hellrender]

I agree with bannus here. GW should really stop putting in characters that are the only ones that can do something.

 

It gets implied (atleast that is the impression i get) that sooner or later only stronos can save the ih chapter from itself. I hate such illogical hero stories.

 

Sadly too many BL books and GW heroes get portrayed in such light. Ventris, Da'kir, Garro. Yes such heroes are powerful, but it's just illogical that they are alone in that power.

 

ADB and abnety generally have it right with how heroes are portrayed (thinking betrayer and first heretic and gaunts ghost here).

[BassWave]

@Bjorn- Stronos wasn't in wrath of iron. Iron commander Rauth led clan Raukaan in that battle.

 

@Hellrender- I agree. That was one of the cool things about WoI, it wasnt just one marine that "saves" the day.

 

I'd love to see a picture of Stronos, standing victorious over a pile of dismantled necrons.

[Malovence]

I'm torn over Stronos.

 

On one hand he represents everything I hate; Position of power - don't care how they try to justify it by saying it's elected, sorry but it's crap. Just by electing him again and again that's giving him lots of power, if we were to have a 'Chapter Master' they shouldn't be able to have the same CM in succession. Saying move away from bionics for fear of losing a soul when that was one of the cruxes that attracted me to the captain the first place.

 

But at the same time opening up the council to include Apoacaries and such isn't that much of a bad move because surely if the council were restricted to one position - Iron Fathers - then you are still giving power to one type of person in the manner similar to a chapter master. So opening up to get more view points on the council makes sense, at least to me.

 

Fear of becoming very similar to Necrons makes sense and to an extent seems a natural progression our chapter could seriously reach. But at the same time to a certain extent Necrons could be argued to be what many Iron Hands may aspire to be because there are no emotions, no flesh which is weak. So it is a genuine concern for Stronos to have.

 

My fear with Stronos is that because we finally have a Character in our fluff beyond Bannus, that he becomes our Mephiston, our Calgar etc when it becomes that all our chapters great deeds in fluff are done by Stronos, not unique members from clans but master of the chapter. We have so little fluff, even less outstanding characters so that now we have 1 name being seeded about in our fluff it's a genuine worry that we won't get an new characters and instead it becomes the Stronos is amazing show.

 

But so long as it's emphasised that not all the clans agree with Stronos I don't mind because it fits in that our clans frequently argue and disagree with one another and allows you to build your clan into the fluff according to your views. It's when this view becomes clan wide we need to worry.

 

Yes the fluff is changing/changed from the brilliant Index Astartes sadly we need to take the good with the bad.

[Yosef Hausakluif]

So if Stronos now leads Clan Raukaan, what happened to Rauth?

 

I love when GW just drops a new character in out lap and doe snot provide much explanation for pre-existing fluff, etc.

 

That being said if we get a second wave with him as a model, that would be cool!

[BassWave]

Stronos doesn't lead clan raukaan. He personally leads a different one when he's not the IH president.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

He's the commander of Clan Garrsak, I believe.

 

I also don't like him.  I'm in the process of finally codifying an IA for my Clan Company, and I have zero issue setting my boys up as the political opposition to Stronos on the Clan Council.  As independent as the Clans are, it just doesn't make sense for the whole Chapter to march in lock-step behind one leader for any extended period of time.

[Dobermann]

I also don't like him.  I'm in the process of finally codifying an IA for my Clan Company, and I have zero issue setting my boys up as the political opposition to Stronos on the Clan Council.  As independent as the Clans are, it just doesn't make sense for the whole Chapter to march in lock-step behind one leader for any extended period of time.

 

We are in two, 

also my clan is opposing Stronos. 

In my caln council, there is place for no chaplains (let's remember a creation of the foul Word Bearers).

That role is covered by Iron Fathers (Basically Techmarines).

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

I also don't like him.  I'm in the process of finally codifying an IA for my Clan Company, and I have zero issue setting my boys up as the political opposition to Stronos on the Clan Council.  As independent as the Clans are, it just doesn't make sense for the whole Chapter to march in lock-step behind one leader for any extended period of time.

 

We are in two, 

also my clan is opposing Stronos. 

In my caln council, there is place for no chaplains (let's remember a creation of the foul Word Bearers).

That role is covered by Iron Fathers (Basically Techmarines).

 

Me three - my Clan's elders advocated the execution of those clans who would go on the form the Sons of Medusa during the miorae schism, so I doubt they'd subscribe to Kardan Stronos' trying to stop the IHs chopping themselves up - next he'll be 'teaching them to love'

 

Oh, and if they see a Chaplian wearing IH colours, they'll kill kim. Simple.

[BassWave]

Again, where does it say Stronos wants to stop bionic modification? He just says to remember that we still have souls, from which we can pull purer anger and hatred.

[Ravenfeld]

It all comes down to interpretation, as it is with any text anywhere at any time. I think the issue is people saw that quote, took it to mean he hated bionics, got that concept in a death grip and have used it as fuel to gripe about things they don't like in the book. It allows them what they perceive as a solid foundation from which to attack the changes and alterations that have been made the our chapter by GW. I personally, and I think I've made this very clear by now, think that the whole section is rock solid. I like everything about it including Stronos wanting to prevent the Iron Hands from becoming little more than soulless machines bent on genocide - Astartes might be made for war, but part of their appeal is that they still have personalities and character quirks and I can relate to Stronos in not wanting to see the IH become Necron Light. That is how I interpreted the quote, his views on the Necron threat and the parrallels he can draw between his own chapter and those of his most hated enemy surely struck a cord. It is also a good way to get away from the whole "The Iron Hands are secretly Necron worshippers" angle I've seen bandied around in a few circles. We are some of the most loyalist loyalists damnit and it best stay that way.

 

Over-all I am looking forward to the supplement itself, not the backlash that is likely to happen when it lands though.

[Ironwrought Huw]

Personally, I've been in opposition to Stronos since he first ever appeared, as a fairly insignificant footnote quote in the first Apocalypse book. But I'm not against Stronos as such  - I'm against the shoddy writing. 

 

I'll reiterate my remarks from when the codex first came out, my problem with Stronos is that he is pretty much all we ever hear about. It's not like there aren't other named Iron Hands (Bannus, Blantar, Gaumech, Gdolkin, etc...), nor is it impossible to simply create names - it just struck me as incredibly lazy writing. Much like the dire "OMG I <3 Sicarius 4eva!!1!!1!" that we saw in the 5th edition codex,  we read about great moments of the Iron Hands - only to find out that it's the same person behind all of them. 
If you put the effort into listing the names of every sergeant of the Ultramarines 2nd Company and the entire command squad, I'd like to suggest that you should also be able to think up names for, let's say, 5 Iron Hands characters. Rather than giving the Iron Hands a selection of heroes, they get lumped with *suitably bombastic voice* Kardan Stronos, Saviour of Medusa. 

Chaplains - I like to think that the inclusion of chaplains was a typo. A very significant typo (re:earlier comment about lazy writing). In my mind and army Iron Fathers will always have and will be techmarine-chaplains. (Recruited from the techmarines in the armoury, which has it's own MoTF).  

 

That said, I don't  have to worry too much about Stronos. Since my Hands are a band of survivors from the Dropsite, unless they get very lost in the warp and arrive on Medusa in M.41, it's unlikely Clan Tellum will have much interaction with him...

[Ravenfeld]

Huberticus -

 

Those are fair points and in that regard I can agree with you - but I think we all have come to expect a level of favoritism towards the boys in blue that transcends everything else. The fact is that the Ultras have BEEN Codex Space marines for a few editions, and in that time their fluff has swelled drastically. This is the first iteration of the IH in a long time and - I'm sure - it was also a means of GW to test the waters on their reception. The popularity of the supplement will also influence how our chapter evolves in future editions as well - but we will never be a stand alone dex and thus we will never receive the sort of depth from GW I think a great many of us desire.

 

I think the rumor about all the HQ's getting Blessing at standard levels will help mesh the Chaplain and Iron Father roles nicely, as you'd have a chappy with the ability to repair. Toss in a servo-harness and you're even better off.

 

Anyway, Stronos is what he is and maybe they didn't provide more names because they wanted the fans to be able to keep their own Clan leaders and fluff, maybe they actually considered the fact that the whole of the IH fan base pre-C:SM release were diehards, many of which had written their own fluff and the like. Perhaps they wanted to ease us into their version of the Iron Hands? I could be giving them too much credit, but if that is the case I personally am grateful to not have my clan completely disregarded because they wrote up all 10 clans with the leaders in clear as day terms. One super leader is preferable to Primus Godric, Pillar of Strength, Master of Clan Bracchus becoming a fancy that could not exist within the confines of the fluff, just my opinion of course.

[Malovence]

Personally, I've been in opposition to Stronos since he first ever appeared, as a fairly insignificant footnote quote in the first Apocalypse book. But I'm not against Stronos as such  - I'm against the shoddy writing. 

 

I'll reiterate my remarks from when the codex first came out, my problem with Stronos is that he is pretty much all we ever hear about. It's not like there aren't other named Iron Hands (Bannus, Blantar, Gaumech, Gdolkin, etc...), nor is it impossible to simply create names - it just struck me as incredibly lazy writing. Much like the dire "OMG I <3 Sicarius 4eva!!1!!1!" that we saw in the 5th edition codex,  we read about great moments of the Iron Hands - only to find out that it's the same person behind all of them. 

If you put the effort into listing the names of every sergeant of the Ultramarines 2nd Company and the entire command squad, I'd like to suggest that you should also be able to think up names for, let's say, 5 Iron Hands characters. Rather than giving the Iron Hands a selection of heroes, they get lumped with *suitably bombastic voice* Kardan Stronos, Saviour of Medusa. 

Chaplains - I like to think that the inclusion of chaplains was a typo. A very significant typo (re:earlier comment about lazy writing). In my mind and army Iron Fathers will always have and will be techmarine-chaplains. (Recruited from the techmarines in the armoury, which has it's own MoTF).  

 

That said, I don't  have to worry too much about Stronos. Since my Hands are a band of survivors from the Dropsite, unless they get very lost in the warp and arrive on Medusa in M.41, it's unlikely Clan Tellum will have much interaction with him...

That's exactly my issue. Even if you agree with disagree with Stronos and his views, the independent nature of our clans gives us lots of room with which to base our clans allowing you to embrace or disregard the fluff changes as you wish.

 

My issue with Stronos is what he may become. I don't want this one character been the main focus of all our great battles and what not. I've reiterated this in my posts frequently and my previous one in this thread. We have a few other hero's with which great feats can be accomplished - seriously Stronos should be a dreadnought - yet my worry is that it will be the Stronos show, with him being the all encompassing hero of the chapter at the cost of others.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

It all comes down to interpretation, as it is with any text anywhere at any time. I think the issue is people saw that quote, took it to mean he hated bionics, got that concept in a death grip and have used it as fuel to gripe about things they don't like in the book. It allows them what they perceive as a solid foundation from which to attack the changes and alterations that have been made the our chapter by GW. I personally, and I think I've made this very clear by now, think that the whole section is rock solid. I like everything about it including Stronos wanting to prevent the Iron Hands from becoming little more than soulless machines bent on genocide - Astartes might be made for war, but part of their appeal is that they still have personalities and character quirks and I can relate to Stronos in not wanting to see the IH become Necron Light. That is how I interpreted the quote, his views on the Necron threat and the parrallels he can draw between his own chapter and those of his most hated enemy surely struck a cord. It is also a good way to get away from the whole "The Iron Hands are secretly Necron worshippers" angle I've seen bandied around in a few circles. We are some of the most loyalist loyalists damnit and it best stay that way.

 

Over-all I am looking forward to the supplement itself, not the backlash that is likely to happen when it lands though.

 

I think the issue is that Stronos has become effectively a grounding rod for all of the dissatisfaction IH fans have with their newest iteration. To be honest, with him at first being described as the IHs' Chapter Master back in the previous codex, things could never go well - okay, GW tried to adress this with converting him to a Warleader, but all it really did is end up drawing attention to the recent retcon in terms of the chapter heirachy. The idea of a Temporary position being taken by this guy for 300 years is obsurd, as though suddenly the fractitious nature of the Clans suddenly dissapeared in awe of his leadership - which seems even more bizzare considering his somewhat unorthodox beliefs (for IHs at least). Its also unhelpful that the section describing him is also the part that alters the position of Iron Fathers and introduces Chaplains, so its always going to be associated with him, as well as him being one of the new Iron Fathers.

 

In my opinion, its unfortunate that all the more controversial changes to the IHs appear to have been shoehorned into the fluff using Stronos as a medium. I may have been exaggerating earlier with the whole anti-bionics thing, but I think the interpretation of Stronos's advice away from the IHs becoming progressively more souless is to do with "Wrath of Iron" which suggests that the more enhancements a marine has, the more his "spirit" dims. Another issue is, his character doesn't really seem to have any redeeming features - and portraying him as a superawesome fighter and leader just makes him seem more forced. An example of self sacrifice would have helped, or an example of tactical unorthodoxy that had a positive outcome, he just seems a tad 2 dimensional (although, with SM characters, this does tend to be the norm).

 

Also, why not expand the limited fluff on one of our existing characters? Bannus would have been perfect - a Venerable Dread leader, protege of possibly the most famous Iron Father, Paullan Blantar - besides, I think an honoured elder fits much better with the IH's divided character than an uber-powerful commander.

 

Unfortunately, with all the emphasis on Stronos, I can't help but see him as a personification of all the more dodgy changes to the Chapter we've had recently, which probably isn't helped by the idea that Stronos is a recent warleader in the 40k timeline, and these codex-oriented changes seem to have been more recent too (although this might just be because we've had the existing fluff unchanged for ages, and its just me associating new fluff with the most recent stages of the 40k timeline).

 

Just a sidenote, does anyone else think moving Iron Fathers to basically an honourific title not really make any sense? I mean, why would representing your Clan in the Iron-Council require training with the AdMech? Plus why wouldn't each clan's leader represent it? In all honesty, I think giving the honourific Warleader would've been better at this, but then you wouldn't have our not Chapter master Chapter Master

[Bannus]

Just a sidenote, does anyone else think moving Iron Fathers to basically an honourific title not really make any sense? I mean, why would representing your Clan in the Iron-Council require training with the AdMech? Plus why wouldn't each clan's leader represent it? In all honesty, I think giving the honourific Warleader would've been better at this, but then you wouldn't have our not Chapter master Chapter Master

 

This is perhaps the most drastic and offensive change tothe fluff.

 

The Iron-Father was a unique character to the Iron Hands - an icon....maybe even the icon. He was an elite Chaplain/Techmarine hybrid. Changing the Iron-Father to be nothing more than an honorific is like making the Emperor's Champion an honorific for the Black Templars.

 

The change only makes sense if your goal is a slow step-by-step transition of changing the Iron Hands into a Codex Chapter.

[Storm Warden]

Sorry for jumping on this thread a bit late. I pretty much started 40k with 6th, and didn`t really become a fan until I started using the IH tactics and reading some of the stories. My newness to the game might be the reason I gladly accept Stronos, and Clan Ruakaan. What I came home with after readig the SP Codex, and the Clan Ruakaan supplement is that Stronos is worried, especially after Iron Father Kristos' fanaticism with logic and machines and the near defeat by the Sapphire King, of the IH losing their humanity. Also, it may be, after following this thread and realizing that perhaps Stronos is trying to bring the chapter closer in-line with the Codex Asartes as a guide to preserve that humanity. That is my 2 cents.

[Machine God]

< Shuts down audio receptors! Outputs on full audio >

"LA, LA, LA! I can't hear you!!! Stronos does not exist, it is a ret-con!!

Does Not Compute!"

LA, LA, LA!!!"

[Wade Garrett]

So, because the Iron Hands were nearly defeated by a daemon (that is, a warp entity made of and fuelled by emotion) they must become more emotional.

 

How can you argue with that logic?

[Yodhrin]

 

So, because the Iron Hands were nearly defeated by a daemon (that is, a warp entity made of and fuelled by emotion) they must become more emotional.

 

How can you argue with that logic?

 

 

What annoys me most is that the whole reason for Stronos' "philosophy" is a retconned contrivance in the first place. Most of this "beep-boop, does not compute, that is illogical Jim" Borg-Vulcan-hybrid guff only came about with this new fluff; they changed the chapter's entire outlook following the Heresy, they wrote the background specifically so that the new outlook is taken too far, all so they could shoehorn in Iron Jeebus there to "save" the chapter. If they'd just stuck with the hatred of weakness, cold suppressed fury regarding the Heresy traitors, and ruthless pragmatism then there would have been no need for a saviour at all.

 

Of course I doubt that was any concern, I suspect whoever was writing the new 'Hands fluff was essentially given the brief to make them into a Codex chapter with a "proper" Chapter Master, and the rest is merely justification for that change.

[Bannus]

 If they'd just stuck with the hatred of weakness, cold suppressed fury regarding the Heresy traitors, and ruthless pragmatism then there would have been no need for a saviour at all.

 

That is the problem: This is the grim darkness of the far future....there is no savior. There isn't supposed to be. Everything is bleak and hopeless. That is what the far future of the 41st Millennium is supposed to be - only war. The Iron Hands turn themselves into mechanical constructs - not because it is a good thing - but because the 40K universe is full of terrible monsters out to devour humanity and humanity needs monsters of their own to defeat them. The Iron Hands are supposed to be cold, merciless and unrelenting. There is no room for compassion, there is no margin for error because the future hangs in the balance. Only the strong will survive and the Imperium can ill afford to protect the weak. That is the outlook the Iron Hands are supposed to have. Their mantra is "The unyielding mind and the unyielding body", not "Let's get reaquainted with our humanity".