Betrayer. Thoughts, queries, equestions. Spoilers, duh.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Greetings brothers, matters of Crusades have kept me from these halls for far to long but I finally finished A D-B's latest masterpiece last night and have to talk about it. As I say I have been absent for a while so I'm sorry if any of this has already been discussed on another thread. I only recently finished Exterminatus but basically jumped straight into Betrayer and couldn't put it down. While the only real possitive thing I can say about Angel Exterminatus was that Sharrowkyn has gone a long way to healing the abuses heaped on the Glaring (Raven Guard) by other BL writers but I really didn't care that much for the book. Compared to that Betrayer there is almost too much to say. So I'll start with the more random stuff...

 

I think I may have fallen for Lotara Sarrin... I mean she has the balls to trash talk Ultramarines and shoot World Eaters in the face! She is easily the coolest mortal in M31 even if she is on the wrong side of the Heresy.

 

Did anyone else actually start to feel more and more possitively about Argel Tal as the book went on... maybe its just me being a loyalist but at the start or in Butchers Nails I thought he was just like every other Zelot Word Bearer scumbag but towards the end, well I was actually angry about what happened to him. And also Raum... I loved Raum! Yes I know it's a demon etc but it was just how much it hates Erebus made me laugh every time haha.

 

One thing that always has bothered me but even more after this book is the qustion, I think, Lorgar asks about Angrons capture... Why didn't the Emperor help the Angrons Eaters of Cities? Yes I get that the Primarch was a foaming at the mouth psyco but the reason he refused to join the Emperor was because he wanted to fight and die with his men. It wouldn't have been hard to loose the War Hounds or Castodes against the 'High-Riders' would it? Even if just the Emperor himself had fought beside his son it would have been enough to get Angron's respect. I mean the Emperor helped Corax deal with the Slavers on Khiovar didnt he? So it's not like there isn't precident. It just seems like bad judgment/laziness on the Master of Mankinds behalf.

 

Right, am I the only one that thinks that Gulliman is the worst armed of all the Primarchs? I mean reading the fight between him and Angron, and maybe this is just me, but I can't help but think of course he was beaten down he was fighting blades with fists!!! I know Power fists have their uses on say Terminators but c'mon! I know their awesome weapons in M41 and I don't mean to get any Ultras backs up but does anyone else think that fight would have played out differently had Gulliman had say a huge storm shield and Gladius? It read like even though they basically matched eachother blow for blow Gulliman was bleeding and worse off cause the World Eater was taking chunks out of him and slicing up internal organs while the Ultramarine was only goreing him in return.

 

And finally how satisfying was it to read Khârn destroying Erebus!? He has had it coming the whole Heresy, even before that, ok I would have prefered Sigismund to humble him but there's still time! I know they couldn't kill him cause he's still alive in M41 but now we all know that the only reason he is alive is cause he did a Brave Sir Robin. So, yeah, overall hats off to the author...

[Wade Garrett]

I imagine the Emperor appeared in the sky over Nuceria and the planetary nobility's response was something along the lines of "We would totally love to join your sweet Imperium and pay huge taxes, but would you mind helping us with this small problem we have with a giant crazy man and his army of cyborg gladiators hiding in the mountains?"

 

Emps goes to investigate said crazy, discovers Angron, and decides against overthrowing a government that would be happy to join him peacefully on behalf of a bunch of drooling lobotomized beserkers.

 

And the rest is Heresy.

[Captain Idaho]

Main points I'd like to respond to are:

 

1) Argel Tal was a character you can empathise with, but let's remember he got what he deserved for his loyalty to the Emperor. Murdering thousands of people for the glory of dark gods doesn't convince me he didn't get a poetic end.

 

2) I believe the Emperor gave Angron the option to liberate and rule his home world as normal for Primarchs yet Angron rejected that idea. Once he's traitor he can deal with the planet how he wants.

 

3) Guilliman's weapons are amazing. He was taking down Lorgar then going on to fight with the hardest of all Primarchs (possible) who even beat Leman Russ. AD-B even made a point of telling us in the story that Guilliman should have had the advantage with power fists but for Angron's superlative fighting prowess.

 

4) And yes. Erebus getting beaten like that was a little homage to the community who hate the cretin. Great to read him crawling away for his life.

[helterskelter]

I quite enjoy the little bit with angron with his men before one of the battles. Almost happy bless him

[Gorkimedes]

- Argel Tal, can't say I ever liked him. It seemed to me that at every other turn he was going on about how everything he's done is wrong and horrible but he's going to do it anyway cause.... truth and stuff. Glad he's gone.

 

- He seems to do all right with the powerfists. After that one good blow he got on Lorgar the dude was on the ground coughing up blood.

 

- This book also cemented my belief that I wouldn't set foot inside an Imperator Titan for all the gold in the galaxy.

[spu00sed]

 

- This book also cemented my belief that I wouldn't set foot inside an Imperator Titan for all the gold in the galaxy.

It is fine to step inside an imperator, if it doesn't belong to your side. :p

[Scribe]

 

 

Main points I'd like to respond to are:

2) I believe the Emperor gave Angron the option to liberate and rule his home world as normal for Primarchs yet Angron rejected that idea. Once he's traitor he can deal with the planet how he wants.

 

On what grounds do you base this?

[Visitor13]

'So proud, he was!' He died badly.'

 

p. 109

[Wade Garrett]

I have to agree with Scribe of Khorne. That certainly isn't the impression I got from either Betrayer or After De'Shea.

 

Argel Tal...I liked the character, which is why I'm kind of glad he died. Even in the span from The First Heretic to Betrayer we saw him changing, from "Everything was a choice, and he would choose to suffer through this as the primarch had intended for him, carrying the changes so others would never have to. Humanity would live on through the strength of the chosen few." To "These are....humanity's dregs, but they are not here completely involuntarily. Look at

them. You'd not think twice about breaking open their skulls if they were in your way."

 

His loyalty, his honor...it has no place in what the Word Bearers become under Kor Phaeron and Erebus, a pit of trustless, FAITHLESS snakes who care nothing for enlightening or saving humanity, or even for their own Legion brothers.

 

It's all "What can *I* get from the gods and Warp take the rest of you" and on the balance I'm pleased Last Angel avoided that fate. To quote a wise old Dreadnaught, "Now we must endure corruption as well? Was madness not enough of a curse?"

[Deus Imperator Vult]

I imagine the Emperor appeared in the sky over Nuceria and the planetary nobility's response was something along the lines of "We would totally love to join your sweet Imperium and pay huge taxes, but would you mind helping us with this small problem we have with a giant crazy man and his army of cyborg gladiators hiding in the mountains?"

 

Emps goes to investigate said crazy, discovers Angron, and decides against overthrowing a government that would be happy to join him peacefully on behalf of a bunch of drooling lobotomized beserkers.

 

And the rest is Heresy.

Well yeah at its barest facts I'm sure the Emperor would have considered that... the second he saw that they'd enslaved, abused, and mutilated his son you wouldn't think he would stand for that. I mean I'm sure the slavers on Khiovar were also quite happy to go 'Oh Imperium erm yes we would like to give you lots of money to live please.' as Corax appears behind them and igniting his lightening claws.

 

I get that he wouldn't have wanted to murder and entire world but he could very easily have crushed the army and offered Angron a way to save his people that might have been enough. Either way it just seems that nearly every other Primarch got a far more favourable first encounter with their father.

 

Main points I'd like to respond to are:

 

1) Argel Tal was a character you can empathise with, but let's remember he got what he deserved for his loyalty to the Emperor. Murdering thousands of people for the glory of dark gods doesn't convince me he didn't get a poetic end.

 

3) Guilliman's weapons are amazing. He was taking down Lorgar then going on to fight with the hardest of all Primarchs (possible) who even beat Leman Russ. AD-B even made a point of telling us in the story that Guilliman should have had the advantage with power fists but for Angron's superlative fighting prowess.

Oh yeah dont get me wrong it is a deserved fate though I was kind of hoping to have him gutted by Sanguinius but oh well... its more that by the end I had a lot more respect and sympathy for him than I was expecting.

 

See I'm still not sure they just don't seem like Primarch weapons... not for the Ultramarine atleast. I mean yes I could see Angron being all 'ANGRON SMASH!' with some. I think there was even that vid Lorgar showed Magnus of Angron ripping open a Rhino with his bare hands at the start of the book. Ok yeah he did well against Lorgar but... um... I don't mean to insult Word Bearer fans but I don't well put it like this I agree with Night Haunter on him... It just seems like Gulliman is getting stabbed, cut, hacked at and by contrast Angron is bloody and bruised. It seems to be that blades are more telling with beings that heal that fast.

 

I meant to quote the line about not wanting to step foot on an Imperator too but clearly my brain isnt working. Anyway, I don't know brother this is the second perhaps the third portrayal I've ever read of an Imperator being defeated and definitely the first of it being taken intacked. I mean without the what sixty ursus claw armed warhounds and a few companies of world eaters what can you do against something that size? The only other two Engine kills I can think of are from something like twenty plus Warlords and Reavers slaving their guns to one Princeps (nearly killing him) to fire in unison and being ripped appart by a super-mega-gargant whatever the Orks call it and that was only cause her weapons were depleated/overheated. Personally I'd feel quite secure aboard something with that kind of kill death ratio in the 41st(31st) millinium.

[Wade Garrett]

I'm sorry, I can't hear what Curze is saying about Lorgar over the sound of his apocetharies having to resucitate him thirty nine times after he decided he could take on the Lion.

[betrayer41]

best part of the book for me was after The world eaters led by Khârn Crash into the wall of shielded Ultras.....they take their beating lose men like the WE always do....then right before the nails truly kick in Khârn snarls ....."Our Turn"...... ing AWESOME

[betrayer41]

 

 

 

Main points I'd like to respond to are:

 

2) I believe the Emperor gave Angron the option to liberate and rule his home world as normal for Primarchs yet Angron rejected that idea. Once he's traitor he can deal with the planet how he wants.

 

On what grounds do you base this?

i never got this impression either ive read/listened to betrayer 3 times.......my impression was that angron refused to leave and was teleported and his fellow gladiators were slaughtered i dont think there was much of a choice to stay and fight let alone conquer his planet

[Legatus]

 

Right, am I the only one that thinks that Gulliman is the worst armed of all the Primarchs?

 

Presumably he is using the Gauntlets of Ultramar. They are an artifact of unknown origin that was uncivered (or recovered?) by Guilliman. The Mechanicus has been unable to penetrate or damage the artifact, meaning they are pretty much undistructable, making them a supremely defensive weapon. In addition to having the offensive capabilities of powerfists, which are generally much more destructive than any sort of power blade, axe or maul. If it wasn't for those enhanced properties, I assume he would be wielding some sort of sword and shield combo. But due to their properties, the gauntlets can deflect attacks that would even destroy a storm shield.

[Captain Idaho]

I actually don't think he can. His weapons have been described as claws/fists, and this seems to be a generic, unremarkable weaponry. We've never actually been told he uses them or ever did, instead that he won them and they are worn by the Master of the Chapter at all times. We have no time frame etc.

 

Unremembered Empire confirmed Guilliman preferred a gladius and shield and he seems very proficient in it. Curze will remember it every time he looks in a mirror for sure!

[Brother Captain Kezef]

 

I imagine the Emperor appeared in the sky over Nuceria and the planetary nobility's response was something along the lines of "We would totally love to join your sweet Imperium and pay huge taxes, but would you mind helping us with this small problem we have with a giant crazy man and his army of cyborg gladiators hiding in the mountains?"

 

Emps goes to investigate said crazy, discovers Angron, and decides against overthrowing a government that would be happy to join him peacefully on behalf of a bunch of drooling lobotomized beserkers.

 

And the rest is Heresy.

Well yeah at its barest facts I'm sure the Emperor would have considered that... the second he saw that they'd enslaved, abused, and mutilated his son you wouldn't think he would stand for that. I mean I'm sure the slavers on Khiovar were also quite happy to go 'Oh Imperium erm yes we would like to give you lots of money to live please.' as Corax appears behind them and igniting his lightening claws.

 

I get that he wouldn't have wanted to murder and entire world but he could very easily have crushed the army and offered Angron a way to save his people that might have been enough. Either way it just seems that nearly every other Primarch got a far more favourable first encounter with their father.

 

>Main points I'd like to respond to are:

 

1) Argel Tal was a character you can empathise with, but let's remember he got what he deserved for his loyalty to the Emperor. Murdering thousands of people for the glory of dark gods doesn't convince me he didn't get a poetic end.

 

3) Guilliman's weapons are amazing. He was taking down Lorgar then going on to fight with the hardest of all Primarchs (possible) who even beat Leman Russ. AD-B even made a point of telling us in the story that Guilliman should have had the advantage with power fists but for Angron's superlative fighting prowess.

Oh yeah dont get me wrong it is a deserved fate though I was kind of hoping to have him gutted by Sanguinius but oh well... its more that by the end I had a lot more respect and sympathy for him than I was expecting.

 

See I'm still not sure they just don't seem like Primarch weapons... not for the Ultramarine atleast. I mean yes I could see Angron being all 'ANGRON SMASH!' with some. I think there was even that vid Lorgar showed Magnus of Angron ripping open a Rhino with his bare hands at the start of the book. Ok yeah he did well against Lorgar but... um... I don't mean to insult Word Bearer fans but I don't well put it like this I agree with Night Haunter on him... It just seems like Gulliman is getting stabbed, cut, hacked at and by contrast Angron is bloody and bruised. It seems to be that blades are more telling with beings that heal that fast.

 

I meant to quote the line about not wanting to step foot on an Imperator too but clearly my brain isnt working. Anyway, I don't know brother this is the second perhaps the third portrayal I've ever read of an Imperator being defeated and definitely the first of it being taken intacked. I mean without the what sixty ursus claw armed warhounds and a few companies of world eaters what can you do against something that size? The only other two Engine kills I can think of are from something like twenty plus Warlords and Reavers slaving their guns to one Princeps (nearly killing him) to fire in unison and being ripped appart by a super-mega-gargant whatever the Orks call it and that was only cause her weapons were depleated/overheated. Personally I'd feel quite secure aboard something with that kind of kill death ratio in the 41st(31st) millinium.

 

 

Corax won his civil war BEFORE the emperor showed up. It's worth considering what would of happened if the Emperor had arrived mid-rebellion.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

I'm sorry, I can't hear what Curze is saying about Lorgar over the sound of his apocetharies having to resucitate him thirty nine times after he decided he could take on the Lion.

Aha you miss understand brother I'm not saying Curze is some sort of superlative warrior, I mean the only reason the Lion didnt kill him the first time was that Curze fights dirty, only that I agree with him in First Heretic when he saves Lorgar from being gutted by Corax then just calls him a coward then leaves again.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Corax won his civil war BEFORE the emperor showed up. It's worth considering what would of happened if the Emperor had arrived mid-rebellion.

I may be misremembering, I have repressed a fair amount of Deliverance Lost because of the injustices done to one of my personal favourite chapters, but I'm fairly sure he had only secured Deliverance by the time the Emperor arrived. I mean yes he hadd dropped that nuke down on Khiovar and they pretty much had no chance of retaking the moon but they weren't exactly kissing Corvus' feet and begging for mercy.

[Wade Garrett]

Coward.

An insult that loses a bit of its sting when delivered by a Primarch who ran away from the Lion aboard "Invincible Reason".

 

Compared to, say, Lorgar SEEKING OUT Corax at Isstvan even though he knew he couldn't beat the Raven Lord.

[Kol Saresk]

Lorgar had the second largest Legion standing behind him.

 

The Lion had an entire battle-barge.

 

Curze just had bad dental hygiene.

[daveNYC]

The book made memorable characters out of all the World Eaters.  I'm worried that from here on out, what with Angron ascending and the World Eaters all using the nails, that the legion will be reduced to herp-a-derp frothing at the mouth cameos.

 

I disliked the kingships.  The Abyss worked as a Doomsday Device that needed crumping.  You can buy that it's such an investment of resources to build one that the Abyss was one of a kind.  Like the Death Star.  When the two others show up at the beginning of Betrayer, you're stuck thinking that they're not that difficult to build, what with there being three of them, so why stop at three?  Especially since they seem to be able to crush entire fleets on their own.

 

I loved the presentations of all the characters on the World Eater's side.  I'm still not digging Lorgar's motivation for all this though.  I don't quite get why his revolt against the fact that the Imperial Truth isn't all that true immediately requires slaughter on a galactic scale.  Sure, his dad lied about there being 'gods' (in as much as Warp Entities qualify for that moniker), but the jump from 'dad lied' to 'and therefor we must worship the warp powers and sacrifice millions of lives to them' is something I'm still not buying.

 

Anything that involves the Word Bearers getting beaten around the face and head is a good thing.  Now that Argel Tal is dead, the remainder are pretty much completely unlikable.  It doesn't help that the most unlikable ones are still kicking it in 40k, so we're going to be stuck watching them successfully twirl their mustaches for the rest of the series.

[Excessus]

I especially loved two little parts of the book. The first is when Delvarus is disciplined by his brothers, a beautiful scene! The second is when Khârn enters the arena at the end, with gorechild chained to his waist in honour of Angrons fallen gladiators...had he finally found a deeper connection to his primarch than the nails?

[Legatus]

 

The book made memorable characters out of all the World Eaters.  I'm worried that from here on out, what with Angron ascending and the World Eaters all using the nails, that the legion will be reduced to herp-a-derp frothing at the mouth cameos.

 

The point of the World Eaters was to be terrifying monsters, not "characters". So, yeah, maybe we will finally see some actual World Eaters.

[daveNYC]

 

 

The book made memorable characters out of all the World Eaters.  I'm worried that from here on out, what with Angron ascending and the World Eaters all using the nails, that the legion will be reduced to herp-a-derp frothing at the mouth cameos.

 

The point of the World Eaters was to be terrifying monsters, not "characters". So, yeah, maybe we will finally see some actual World Eaters.

 

With no characters or personality?  What's there to write about?  We might get what you call 'actual World Eaters', but if they're nothing more than one-dimensional killing machines, why not just skip those paragraphs?  All Astartes are terrifying monsters, even the loyalist ones have their moments.  I just don't want an entire chapter that's been shown to be interesting and engaging (and more so than many of the loyalists) to be reduced to b-listers in some chainsword porn.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, I'm sorry but the point of books are to be filled with characters. Otherwise they're not stories and let's face it, BL is about stories. So I fully support the creation and development of well-written characters.