Betrayer. Thoughts, queries, equestions. Spoilers, duh.

[Scribe]

rofl.

 

Essentially she was a representation of Argal Tal's inability to move forward, and his desire to reset, to undo the Heresy, and what ultimately he had seen and done.

 

Or something like that.

[Nakuth]

Hell, for all I know, Erebus will tear Torgaddon's soul screaming from the warp, corrupt him, clad him in the flesh of a dead Astartes, all just to screw with Loken (who should have remained dead, grrrrrr.... )

 

Wasn't the daemon Tormageddon 'summoned' by Erebus using Torgaddon's recovered progenoid gland? I seem to remember this being alluded to in Know No Fear.

[Kol Saresk]

Not exactly.

 

Know No Fear page 346

 

*among a list of daemons*Tarik reborn, he-who-is-now-Tormageddon. Somewhere, Tarik Torgaddon became Tormageddon, after his death. IIRC, it used to be an old part of the fluff that minor daemons were sometimes created out of the leftovers of our souls, that we became daemons. And since lesser daemons do have the potential to become Greater Daemons, the reasoning in my mind is that when Tarik died, he transitioned into daemonhood. And then when we see him again at Calth, he had come so far as to be listened among the likes of Epidemius.

[depthcharge12]

Well rejuvenant happens when you stand out in the sands of Arrakis and wait for the sand-trout to come up to you so you can stretch them over your body to become immort-

 

 

whoops sorry Leto II :D

[Bryan Blaire]

I'd imagine if we've already discovered the gene that causes aging now, in 30k they just replace it with a younger version or something a science major could explain better than I can. It would be awkward to go through puberty three or four times though.

There is no single gene that causes aging (sadly), and messing with some of them that are involved are also involved in the development of cancer. It's an area that must be trod very, very carefully. The constant gathering of mutations and fallible genetic processes within any given cell are also to blame and actually cause some of the aging processes to occur. Again, not something that can just be played around with.

 

Also, the interactions of the proteins produced by said genes can't be discounted, there are still discoveries being made about how proteins function to cascade-activate genes to produce other proteins through activation complexes. Just how genes are controlled within eukaryotic cells could be its own curriculum and years and years of research on any given gene. Given that it is complexes of genes for most biological functions, the research requirements are equally complex.

 

(How many more times can I work complex in here?)

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I'd imagine if we've already discovered the gene that causes aging now, in 30k they just replace it with a younger version or something a science major could explain better than I can. It would be awkward to go through puberty three or four times though.

There is no single gene that causes aging (sadly), and messing with some of them that are involved are also involved in the development of cancer. It's an area that must be trod very, very carefully. The constant gathering of mutations and fallible genetic processes within any given cell are also to blame and actually cause some of the aging processes to occur. Again, not something that can just be played around with.

 

Also, the interactions of the proteins produced by said genes can't be discounted, there are still discoveries being made about how proteins function to cascade-activate genes to produce other proteins through activation complexes. Just how genes are controlled within eukaryotic cells could be its own curriculum and years and years of research on any given gene. Given that it is complexes of genes for most biological functions, the research requirements are equally complex.

 

(How many more times can I work complex in here?)

Which would explain why it'd have to be continual process of renewal rather than just one single treatment.

[Marshal Rohr]

And that is why I study IR. 

[Wade Garrett]

.............

 

It's Warhammer 40k. Juvenant treatments work by having a bald man in powered armor that evokes WW1 beat the age out of your cells with a power club.

[Captain Idaho]

Warhammer; where aging and death can be overcome by sheer willpower.

[Kol Saresk]

Warhammer; where aging and death can be overcome by sheer willpower.

So..... daemonhood.

[depthcharge12]

Warhammer; where aging and death can be overcome by sheer willpower.

So..... daemonhood TAU.

Fixed that for ya ^

[Conn Eremon]

Warhammer; where aging and death can be overcome by sheer willpower.

So..... daemonhood TAU.

Fixed that for ya ^

I'm not sure I get the reference.

[Kol Saresk]

Warhammer; where aging and death can be overcome by sheer willpower.

So..... daemonhood TAU.

Fixed that for ya ^

I'm not sure I get the reference.

Same here.

[depthcharge12]

Lol thats ok I used to play tau before it was cool.

 

 

I said that because in the old tau codex it said that they had short lifespans except for a notable few members like O'shovah, shadowsun, etc who it said that their longer lifespan was due to their accomplishments and their manifest destiny as well as being tied to the importance of their race.

 

 

O'shovah and the old ethereal dude and puretide lived exceptionally long lives (average tau life to death is 40ish years) and were the iconic figures of their race who weren't affected by natural death due to charisma, leadership, etc

 

 

 

This was before they sorta retconned farsight to his longevity because his sword steals souls and adds life to his own. Farsight participated in the Damocles crusade and is now like 200ish years old and Aun'va the ethereal leader has been in charge longer than anyone remembers and older than farsight.

 

 

 

 

 

But you guys wouldn't know that because they are dirty xenos scum EVERYONE'S BESTEST FRIENDS NOW

[GhostMalone]

My best friend has blue skin no nose and has a tendency to be very communist like

[depthcharge12]

My best friend has blue skin no nose and has a tendency to be very communist like

 

 

Your australian Guppies dont count jaspcat

 

:P

[Conn Eremon]

I thought it was always strange that Farsight lived so long, and the newest fluff just stopped hinting at it and outright stated it's the sword.

 

Is there any other Tau that lives that long, besides Ethereals?

 

I know according to their new 'dex and supplement, Shadowsun, Farsight and other students of Puretide were all frozen and reanimated. They haven't been alive all this time, they were in cryosleep. Not sure if that is a retcon.

 

 

 

And I have no idea how to tie this into Betrayer . . .

 

Lotarra.

[depthcharge12]

I thought it was always strange that Farsight lived so long, and the newest fluff just stopped hinting at it and outright stated it's the sword.

 

Is there any other Tau that lives that long, besides Ethereals?

 

I know according to their new 'dex and supplement, Shadowsun, Farsight and other students of Puretide were all frozen and reanimated. They haven't been alive all this time, they were in cryosleep. Not sure if that is a retcon.

 

 

 

And I have no idea how to tie this into Betrayer . . .

 

Lotarra.

 

 

I was unaware of the new shtuff as I have avoided the neuveau Tau like the plague due to the abuse of the codex.

 

 

 

 

 

So what do you call a frozen Tau?

 

 

 

FISH STICKS!!!!!!!

[Kol Saresk]

I hear the Horseman coming. He rides upon the winds of the void, a steed brighter than any star and darker than any night. His name is... Jeff!

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah let's keep the Tau talk out of this thread...

[Phoebus]

I'm still not digging Lorgar's motivation for all this though.  I don't quite get why his revolt against the fact that the Imperial Truth isn't all that true immediately requires slaughter on a galactic scale.  Sure, his dad lied about there being 'gods' (in as much as Warp Entities qualify for that moniker), but the jump from 'dad lied' to 'and therefor we must worship the warp powers and sacrifice millions of lives to them' is something I'm still not buying.

 

This is pretty much the only serious critique I have for the stories that comprise Lorgar's cycle.

 

I totally get how Lorgar's experiences and revelations would push him into the arms of Chaos and lead him to rebel against the Emperor.  I'm tracking.  It's the journey between "A great lie has been told to us, and an Imperium whose tyranny is justified by this falsehood is imposing itself on all of Mankind," and "Let us begin sacrificing countless human lives in the some of the most horrific ways imaginable in the name of masters who are swiftly proving to be even worse than the Emperor himself."

 

I'm not saying that the latter is an untenable position - far from it.  Indeed, such is the madness of the Ruinous Powers that this seems to be the inevitable end for even the most well-meaning of their followers.  I'm just saying it's unfortunate that we didn't get a chance to see that particular journey to hell, and how exactly the good intentions it was paved with slowly turned to such murderous malice.

 

And that is perfectly fine. People still root for Jason or for other supernatural villains. People will still want to play such a character in a game, or play such a faction. The World Eaters are a villain faction, not a protagonist faction. Sure, there might be some people who are asking for a more characterised portrayal of Jason Voorhees, and to get a story from his point of view. But you would also have a lot of people being totally put off by such an approach, as that would also ruin the appeal for a lot of people.

 

The only Friday the 13th movie that got an acclaim, though, was the first one - the one that actually didn't feature a faceless, silent, personality-devoid, invincible undead slasher.  I'm not trying to be rude, but your argument seems to come down to "You might disappoint people who have significantly lower expectations for their novel fiction"... and I don't really think that's all that valid.

 

--CHANGE OF SUBJECT--

 

Where the phalanxes and shield walls of antiquity are concerned...  Eh, it's neither here nor there.  Or, rather, it's not the topic that should be argued.

 

Not to be rude but quite a few of the posters participating in this discussion are making arguments based on false facts.  Someone, for instance, argued that shield walls even survived to the 18th century.  That's not true, but European formations that depended as much on muskets as they did on pikes were fielded until surprisingly late in our history.  Similarly, there has been a lot of citing of the Battle of Pydna.  Putting aside the fact that the points raised depend on Polybius and Titus Livius being objective in their respective analysis, the Macedonian phalanx wasn't exactly a shield wall, either.  Pikes approaching 20 feet in length kept the Romans and their allies at bay and made Paullus tear his robes apart in frustration - not shields that were smaller than the Roman scutum.

 

Anyways.

 

The discussion shouldn't be about a specific scene in Betrayer.  I humbly offer that the larger issue is about whether Black Library authors could do a better job of describing battles in the 31st or 41st millennia.  I'm not talking about how well the author conveys drama or tension, or whatever.  I don't think anyone here would argue that Betrayer suffers from that. What I'm referring to is finding that sweet spot between two concepts that are central to the setting:  anachronistic combat and techno-sorcery jazz.

 

 

I don't want people to think I'm directing that criticism exclusively at Black Library.  There are precious few examples of military fiction that get the nuances of individual battles and larger wars right.  And I get that for most readers this sort of thing is going to be transparent.  They really could care less if my suspension of disbelief is broken by Author X showing Army Y employing Tactic Z, even though it doesn't make sense given that situation.

 

What it comes down to is that I think a number of Black Library's authors, Abnett and Dembski-Bowden most notably, are writing stuff that is above and beyond genre fiction (I'm not trying to be insulting to genre fiction when I say this).  Nuanced characters?  Check.  Engrossing plot?  Check.  Action, twists, and drama galore?  Check, check, check.  So yeah, I'm down to complaining about whether the battle-tactics shown in a book make the most sense.  Call it a back-handed compliment.  :)

 

Warhammer 40k's vision of war is very similar to Dune in that combat is often very anachronistic.  In Frank Herbert's works, Duncan Idaho and Paul Atreides fight with rapiers and daggers despite living in an era that features fighter aircraft, spaceships, and atomic weapons.  The two concepts - medieval weaponry and high technology - don't clash, though, because the author took care to explain how the use of the former is a byproduct of the latter.  The elites of his Imperium utilize shield technology, which not only renders its wearer's immune to ballistic weapons but also  ensures mutually assured destruction (via nuclear explosion) if laguna are used against it.

 

Warhammer 40k achieves the same effect with the individual Space Marine and equivalent warriors.  A Space Marine possesses power armour that is able to withstand hits from most firearms in the 41st (and 31st) millennium, most of the time.  A Space Marine also possesses several means of transportation that can get him as close as possible to critical points of the battlefield either instantaneously (teleportation) or in very short time (drop pods, Thunderhawks, etc.).  Combined, all those factors make anachronistic combat (chainswords, power fists, thunder hammers) not only viable but desirable:  boltguns can run out of ammunition, but monomolecular swords don't.

 

Where we run into trouble is when (most, unfortunately) Black Library authors have to describe large-scale battles.  The context of why battles and wars are fought in certain ways is typically ignored.  The rule of cool prevails when it shouldn't, and certain themes and concepts are used for the sake of impact even if they don't make sense. 

 

Mordians forming up for battle as if it were the 19th century, for instance, certainly evokes a powerful image... but that image falls apart when you consider the accuracy of orbital lance strikes as shown in Graham McNeil's "Calth That Was", or the power such weapons can bring to bear in Dan Abnett's Know No Fear.  But even if the logical apex of power projection (orbital superiority, as opposed to today's aerial superiority) can't be brought to bear for some reason, we learned a hundred years ago that artillery no longer allows for squishy humans to take to the battlefield in huge formations.  There needs to be a balance between showing how a Lord General's callousness and ruthlessness plays into Imperial deployments and showing something that is plausible.  A very good example would be the invasion of Gereon in Traitor General: it seems to blend scenes straight out of Saving Private Ryan with the chaos and hopelessness of going "over the top" in a World War One battle.  It does justice to John Blanche's paintings 

 

Will there be exceptions?  Sure!  This regiment's colonel might be an incompetent who bought his commission; that battle-group's general might have  gone insane.  That's generally not the case, though.

 

How does this apply to the scene in question from Betrayer?  Well, I think the World Eaters were depicted perfectly.  They acted as one would expect them to, given the context of their condition and their ethos.  Furthermore, unlike normal warriors, the World Eaters possess the numbers and survivability to get through the damage that their reckless charges incur.  Best of all, though, they were aware of the inefficiency of their own tactics.  The World Eaters grudgingly admit that they lose men when they shouldn't, and Khârn himself points out the adverse effect the Butcher's Nails have on them.

 

That's only half of the equation, though.

 

It's the Ultramarines who I think are represented less than ideally in this battle.  Shields in and of themselves aren't out of place in the Horus Heresy.  We know that shields can be most beneficial, especially in enclosed environments:  see the boarding shield for that.  A shield wall, however, and in an open environment such as a plaza at that, is probably the last thing I expected from as pragmatic and studied a fighting force as the XIII Legion.  Even if the Ultramarines were expecting defeat (as they were in this case), I would have expected a more intelligent last stand:  groups of loyalists making Angron's men pay in the corridors of command bunkers, for instance.  Even if they knew (correctly) that Angron was willing to forego orbital bombardments, aerial attacks, and artillery barrages in the name of a glorious melee, there's no logical reason for the Ultramarines to oblige him.

 

Again, when that's the worst sort of complaint I can muster up for Betrayer, then we're obviously talking about a superior novel - a fine work of fiction.  If we're going to argue about a battle that "doesn't work" in its pages, though, let's be accurate about how it could have been better.  :)

[Wade Garrett]

As far as Lorgar goes, remember what he learned at the End of the Pilgrimage:

 

The soul of every sentient being that dies passes into the Warp, where it is forever tormented by the Neverborn.

 

But by serving the Chaos Gods, human beings can be remade into immortal princes and lords of the afterlife, not tortured slaves.

 

In Lorgar's mind, all the torture and slaughter are necessary evils to save the souls of mankind for all eternity.

 

"Angron is the future, our future. Humanity's future. Immortal strength, and an eternity to learn

the universe's secret metaphysics."

-Betrayer, page 402

 

That's why Aurelian serves Chaos. Because what are the alternatives? The Emperor? He denies that souls and an afterlife even exist, and by doing so condemns billions to eternal torment.

 

And so the Primordial Truth must be spoken, though the galaxy burn.

[Phoebus]

I guess I don't think Lorgar genuinely believes such a fate can be secured for all humans.  I mean, he seems more pragmatic than that.  And ultimately, that position - on its own - doesn't make the Emperor's position any morally weaker.  Even if a thousand or even ten thousand humans could become Daemon Princes, does that justify the horrific things they do to countless billions of human beings to get there?  By contrast, the Emperor is denying the creatures that demand you either suffer horrifically for all eternity or make other suffer thusly in order to avoid that fate.

 

Lorgar's decision to side with Chaos either has to be more informed than that, or there has to be a corrupting influence that has led him to this point.  I doubt the former is the case, and we know for a fact that the latter does occur.  If the latter truly is the case with Lorgar and his Legion, I just think it should be fleshed a bit more.  :)

[Wade Garrett]

No, the Emperor isn't denying Chaos. He's denying it exists, which is a much different thing.

 

Monarchia burned because of the Emperor's dogma that life after death is a fiction. The Chaos Gods proved to Lorgar that it is most certainly not, and that through worshipping Chaos some would be spared. Whereas the Imperial Truth dooms all.

 

As for the "horrors" that it takes to become a daemon prince, the number of planets that were burned to fuel Angron's ascension in the Shadow Crusade were nothing compared to those destroyed by the Great Crusade.

[Phoebus]

Yeah, but who could fault him for that?  Seriously, let's take this train of thought to its logical conclusion.  Imagine you got elected President of the United States tomorrow, and you found out that the whole basis for the separation of church and state and the push for secular societies in general comes down to the fact that there are FOUR god-like powers that rule over a hellish psychic parallel dimension that, oh by the way, is fueled by everything negative about us.  It's tough enough to keep order around the world with no one knowing about these powers - genocidal warfare, intercontinental sex slavery, greed and corruption on a scale capable of bankrupting entire nations, diseases dropping people like flies.  Bonus:  any and all religious activity simply FUELS these powers, ultimately leading to yet more suffering and thus perpetuating the most vicious cycle ever.

 

I don't think anyone would argue you were guilty of lacking integrity if you kept all the information to yourself.

 

The Emperor is in an even bigger predicament.  The problem he faces is (at a minimum) galactic in scope. He isn't dealing with Earth at its historical highest point - in terms of technology, social equity, and (arguably) culture.  He's dealing with Terra at its nadir, as it's coming out of an age of horrific violence and darkness.  Bottom line, if Lorgar wasn't compromised by the fact that the primarchs are greatly flawed as well as immensely gifted, he would have figured out that the Emperor kept his mouth shut about Chaos not just because of the catastrophic effect that knowledge would have on human society but because of what people exactly like him would do.

As for comparing the Emperor's indisputable war crimes to Lorgar's crimes against Ultramar, that's neither here nor there.  The proper comparison would be the amount of violence the Emperor had to unleash on the Galaxy versus the amount of violence caused by the Age of Strife, when the Ruinous Powers decided that the emerging psychic nature of humanity meant the whole species needed a catastrophic push of the "reset" button.  You can, however, compare the motivations of the Emperor with those of Lorgar.  The latter did what he did to empower his brother in the worst way, ensuring in the process that countless other people would suffer for no greater reason than to satisfy Angron's need for bloodlust.  He also did so in order to further masters who feed on violence, suffering, decadence, and lies. The former did so in order to ensure that the species could be protected by those exact powers.  The Imperium was always going to be predicated on tyranny and the concealment of truth, but society - protected by the Webway and with psychic evolution closely monitored - was still going to be better than Lorgar's alternative.  Ultramar was the bar by which the Imperium could be measured; what would you say Lorgar's utopia would be?  I sincerely doubt his beloved Monarchia would resemble anything anyone would want to live in following his conversion!

 

There's a great rift between Lorgar the idealist who built Monarchia, and Lorgar the realist who burned another utopia (of sorts).  Again, I just wish we'd seen a bit more of the journey that led to the former becoming the latter.  :)