Azrael: He's good, but does he work?

[FerociousBeast]

The big guy himself (or should I say little guy?) is generally considered worth his points cost. He comes with a hefty toolbox of special rules and force multipliers. But he has three strikes against him. Deathwing, Ravenwing, and his AP3 sword. While he makes both Deathwing and Ravenwing troops, those companies' respective captains are usually the better choice in pure DW or RW lists because of what they bring to their armies. Furthermore, Azrael can't Deathwing Assault and he can't keep up with Ravenwing bikers, meaning that you have to set aside even more points on top of the hefty allotment he himself requires to protect him and create another strike force for him.

 

So Azrael is usually a poor choice in DW and RW armies, which are currently the most popular builds in our codex.

 

The downsides of his now-AP3 sword are obvious and do not bear hashing out, except to say that it's a problem most special characters nowadays also suffer from.

 

But what about Greenwing and Mixedwing? Does Azrael's 4++ and RoB provide enough of a benefit to make him preferable to a couple of ML2 Librarians w/ PFG (more expensive by 45 points)?

 

What's been your experience?

 

(Hi SvenONE!)

[Interrogator Stobz]

Nice topic FB, has this been covered in it's own topic before?

If not, here goes nothing...

I brought him a few times against a Tau army (No Riptides but quite tough list) and really Comp BA/SW allies facepuncher (Wolflord/Corbulo Termie shenanigans, with two MM/LC toting Stormchickens as backup).

Azrael was always great in CC vs Tau but needed too many point spent on a Comd Sqd and LR delivery system to really make him worth it. Him+ CSqd + LR was a third of my points and the combo didn't do that much lifting to warrant it. He is too slow to make it to more than a couple of enemy units per game and the points spent weakened the rest of my army.

Unless the enemy has an expensive deathstar he is wasted as an overkill unit. If they do bring a deathstar like my BA/SW opponent does his lack of AP2 gets him killed really quickly as a speedbump on their way to the rest of my lines.

I got tabled a couple of times and dragged out one win under the harshest circumstances vs.Tau...He survived one game with a lone DW trooper who was holding the relic in the LR out of LoS of the last immobilised Railgun after I killed everything else that could hurt the LR, the Tau cleared the rest of the table though. It was lucky I got first blood and Azzy got the dirty Xeno warlord bleeding on the sand at his feet before hiding in the LR in a linebreaker position. Big win on VPs but phyrric with regard to table control at the end.

His RoB helped a little; my tacticals didn't run off the table, they got killed where they stood.

In summary; he is too expensive, lacks tools any CM should have (AP2 weapon, the SOS is meant to be the shizzle not just ok read:MEH), his weapon options don't make sense (Lions' Wrath should be assault 2 or same as the Lions' Roar RELIC) so he can use it and charge at the one unti he ever catches, and Vetock is a crap book writer (imho only, just needed to throw that in there, unless GW swallow their pride and do some heavy FAQing I will continue holding that opinion).

I can't really compare him vs. a couple of PFG Libbies; I have only used one once (on a bike with Marches DW List, tabled the same Tau list)

EDIT: Others mileage may(WILL) vary of course, that's just my experience with him.

stobz

[[TA]Typher]

I don't think he's bad. He's not a tyrant like some, but he's better than others in our codex by far.

 

In a mixed wing you gain more scoring units. If you take either Sammuel or Belial only their prospective units are scoring. In a mixed wing situation Azrael is much better in this role. While both the Master of the 1st and the Master of the 2nd have great abilities.. having more scoring units is better in most scenarios

 

Baring Belial taking a insta-kill thunderhammer, In a straight melee fight Azrael is better than other of his sup-masters. The extra wound, attack and FNP plays a important role in this.

 

I also find him good to take with a Banner of devastation gun line. Place him in one of the shooting units and you'll keep those guns firing with his 4++. Like Belial S8 is his bane, but unless you are running him in a DW list you should have more units, so it's not as important that he perform. Refusing a challenge of even his death isn't as devastating as losing Belial in a army with only 20 models compared to the 40 or so you'll probably have in a mixed or green wing.

 

In a DW list you can place him in a LR with a term unit, as a substitute for Belial. I don't think he's better in this role, but he is a valid replacement if you want to use him. AT S6 AP3 5 attacks (if he's not charging, 6 if he is), the extra wound and FNP, he'll perform actually better than Belial with the SOS, baring fighting wraithknights. If he gets a overwatch hit with his master-crafted plasma then you also blind the attackers. That's pretty cool.

 

I saw him overwatch a spacewolves dreadnought in a tournement last saturday and blow it up. Of course that was great dice rolling, but even reducing people to WS1 for a turn will reap you big results.

 

playing DW for most of my games I find I never get to use him. On the rare occasions I have it's always in a mixed wing or greenwing as a support character. provide a invul, and counter charge capability and produce more scoring units. He's not a monster hunter or a CC giant like some others. He can hold his own, but over all if he does nothing else but save models with his invuln, garner you more VP from units holding objects that normally wouldn't and making your enemy avoid him, then he's well worth the points.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Typer; I agree that he is no slouch.

But I know you like to do the math so... vs. a generic CM with AA and a TH, Azzy does 0.4 unsaved wounds on the charge then gets instakilled at the I1 step 63% of the time, that Sir is rubbish odds for one of THE most important CMs in the game.

He is good vs several other opponents, but Named Character Apples vs Generic Unnamed Apples he is MEH in CC.

I'd like to see that Wolf Lord scared of Azzy or at least lose in a duel for the Lion's Honour, but that just ain't going to happen until Vetock grows a pair and FAQs him into the greatness he DESERVES.

s

[NCSUWolf]

He wad an all-star for me a few weekends back at the GT I played in. I ran 2xTacts in rhinos, a DW squad(scoring) in a LR, a libby with some Flakk missle Devs inside a bastion and the C:SM allies that consisted of Tigirius, 5 Sniper Scouts(on the Bastion firing the quadgun) and a trio of Grav Centurions.

 

Azrael walked tall with the Centurions and Tigrius and dominated the center field every game. The T5, 2W dudes in suits in suits ate any ID shots fired his way, then he tank ALL. OF. THE. SHOTS otherwise. RoB kept my tacts going through the thickest, his 4++ was pretty clutch and in cc he managed to chew up quite a bit and soak up challenge denials (allowing tigirius to dome people with his force staff).

 

Anecdote from the tourney, and MVP, a necron player charged the Azzy unit with a squad of wraits that promptly chewed up the Centurions only to get slaughtered by Azrael + Tigirius. Befrit of their babysitting duties, the duo proceeded to annihilate 10 scarab bases and half an immortal squad before the game ended.

 

 

Tl;dr He's no SM Capt cruise missle, nor is he a buff commander that makes all of your shooting godlike, but he does well as both a combat element as well as a force multiplier.

 

But as has its been said: Mileage may vary and his usage varies based on how you as a general chose to take advantage of his various aspects.

[SvenONE]

Aha! glad someone started the thread! we were long overdue!

 

I don't think he's bad either.  His rules really support his fluff well but those rules and wargear options are a bit of an identity crisis.  My main issue is that he's a 6th edition chapter master, as I said in the other thread -- probably one of the most powerful in regards to the Astartes he commands, but what is he exactly supposed to do other than allow you to buy other units?  Off the top of my head, here are some other named chapter masters of note, forgive me if I miss anyone:

 

These are in order of decreasing cost

• Calgar (6th ed)
• Draigo
• Logan
• Dante
• Azrael (6th ed)
• Mordrak 
• Vulkan (6th ed)
• Kantor  (6th ed)
• Helbrect (6th ed)
• Gabriel Seth

 

I didn't put the vanilla chapter master on here only because he isn't named, but he DOES deserve a mention because there are some great options combined with wargear and chapter traits.  I don't want it to turn into a "well if you want a better chapter master, then play another chapter".  But I do want to point out that he's really the 3rd highest costed named chapter master (top 3 are 3 way tie) and Dante is only a few inches ahead of him.  It is important to note how after Calgar, he's the second highest costed 6th edition chapter master.  I'll also mention that Dante starts the list of non-EW chapter masters (boy GW really costs that high!).  By comparison Sammael of course is far less than those guys and has a good T with a decent weapon.

 

It's just that Azrael isn't really a threat in melee that you don't really want facing off against any named character anyway (which is funny because Trials of Azrael has him facing Khârn.  Probably not something I'd be looking to do in a normal game (though truth be told Azrael kinda can take Khârn).  So if he isn't a real melee threat what should he be? A shooting one? Well a mastercrafted combi plasma isn't the worst thing in the world, but he's not really threatening anyone with his gun, not that I would complain about a master crafted BS5 plasma gun, I'm just getting 2 wounds TOPS out of that thing for an entire game.

 

So if he's not really shooty then he's utlity? Well, unlocking DW and RW as troops seems like a good idea, but in practice is it all that it's cracked up to be? In a 2,000 point game I'll say yes, but I wouldn't go lower than 1850, at that point he starts to have the same problem that a pure DW army has which is limited models at high costs.  The whole LD10 thing I get is pretty good, look how hard it is to break Necrons at LD10.  But after all, we ARE talking about stubborn units who can't be swept and auto regroup on the following turn.  Not to mention any HQ unit confers fearless anyway.

 

Overall I can't really argue a 2+/4++ for him, and the 4++ for his unit.  The 6FNP is better than nothing, but in the end if GW said to me, "yeah that FNP we costed at 15pts" I'd say they could have it back for that.

 

But again my issue is that compared to other chapter masters he's a jack of all trades, master of none in an army that's got 3 very different wings.  If you run DW/RW with Azzie, where do you put him? You've got to buy him an escort which is going to be pricy on top of enjoying the perk of getting those units on the board.  You're forced to stick him in a footslogging terminator squad which now loses its VS rule because it's babysitting.

 

You can put him in a GW army, and thats I think why the discussion in the other thread got so heated -- because it's kinda where he belongs.  In a list of static troops standing around stubbornly holding an objective, Hold At All Costs without a doubt is the warlord trait you should always be picking with him, so his FNP is kinda pointless anyway since you'll most likely be holding an objective.

 

It's really the only place he can fit (at least what this brother of the rock thinks).  Sending him into combat is both expensive and not really guaranteed to succeed.

 

Of all the lists we see put together on B&C here, Azrael is seldom seen in a LOT of them.  I love DA and I love using aspects of this codex, but I wish one of the most standout aspects started with the Grand Master.  Overall I think GW missed the Mark on Azzie.  I guess we'll see in another 2 years or so.  

 

At least they could give us a new model!

[Interrogator Stobz]

Congrats on a great result NCSUWolf Sir!!!

It's heartening to hear of DA success, but I wonder how you would have fared without Tigger and his entourage of misfits (I shall not use the abused roman rank in this holy place ;) ).

While I appreciate that 6th is a game of allies and shenanigans, I can't help but be concerned about some of our more fluff important Characters.

[like the lion]

Why the supreme leader of an entire chapter is not eternal warrior I will never know. Grimnar has it as well as Callegar i believe.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'd be happy with T5 instead of EW which seems to cost the earth these days, but I am hesitant to begin a wishlisting debate here.

I hope others will share their experiences and enlarge our toolbox of options when we do choose to field the mighty AZRAEL on the tabletop.

[FerociousBeast]

Why anyone who is not truly immortal is Eternal Warrior I will never know.

 

Back on Azrael, I'd happily pay an extra 15-25 points for AP2 on his sword.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yup, that is all I would really like too. Make other characters hide behind an invulnerable save if they want to play with the Chapter Master of the FIRST LEGION. (Capitals are to encourage GeeDub and Vetock to take notice of how truly important we are :P )

[SvenONE]

AP2 would go a long way, after all look at a DE archon with a huskblade or an overlord with a warscythe.  Those guys don't really have a problem hacking it in CC and they are just standard codex entries let alone a named one.

[CovertToaster]

There are a couple of ways you can play him.

 

If you take inspiration from Pandorax you can give him a bodyguard of DW Knights then they have comparable armour saves, and azzy gets T5 to save him from S8 insta-gibs. That way you have a squad that wants to take a transport, you can run RAS squads as support, you do restrict azzy's combi-plas but that isn't a huge downside, and DWK's don't need the 4++. It can be an expensive army if you want to run DWT squads and you do lose Belials telehomer but you are still using azzy as the dual purpose character that he is.

 

Otherwise you can put him in a pod with combi-plas/plas vets, DWA/outflanking termie/bike squads. Select the warlord trait that allows you to mess with reserve rolls and you have a pure elite/FA army; just figure out how you would like to satisfy the 50% reserve rule.

 

I haven't looked any of these up I'm just throwing them out to further the discussion so don't worry about pulling them apart as I'm not going to be offended.

[[TA]Typher]

Typer; I agree that he is no slouch.

But I know you like to do the math so... vs. a generic CM with AA and a TH, Azzy does 0.4 unsaved wounds on the charge then gets instakilled at the I1 step 63% of the time, that Sir is rubbish odds for one of THE most important CMs in the game.

He is good vs several other opponents, but Named Character Apples vs Generic Unnamed Apples he is MEH in CC.

I'd like to see that Wolf Lord scared of Azzy or at least lose in a duel for the Lion's Honour, but that just ain't going to happen until Vetock grows a pair and FAQs him into the greatness he DESERVES.

s

I agree S8 is the bane of our codex.

My point was that Azrael is fairly good at multiple roles, while not excelling in any.

I don't think he's bad, he just doesn't seem to shine like some CM, who mainly focus in one area or another.

I do agree that EW should be rarer than it is, but with the influx of more and more of S8 weapons T5 on IC's should be more common. With that said why does Sammuel need EW? He's already T5 and has hit and run, so his survival is already greatly enhanced. As mainly a shooting IC (S4 sucks even with AP2) he shouldn't be tanker than Belial, who should be in CC as much as possible. The Deathwing does not excel in shooting, only CC.

[Interrogator Stobz]

He sure is a Jack of all trades and Master of none, I also don't think he is bad bad and in any reasonably large fluff bunny game he will have a great time picking on soft targets and RoB becomes great when you have 100+ Greenwing on the table .

But to me he just doesn't work in a really competative environment (even if I don't play against Taudar and Flying Circus types etc). He creates no fear in the opposition, my 140point Vindicator does a better job of shaping the battle than my expensive CM or any LR variant, that being said he can stay on the shelf and keep Asmodai company

[FerociousBeast]

Deathwing Knights is the bodyguard that first springs to mind, but there are two downsides. #1 - no natural ap2; #2 - wasting the 4++ aura.

 

I think I like the idea of drop podding Company Veterans best. You can kit them out to fill Azrael's holes (power fists and thunder hammers) and the 4++ is put to good use. Also pretty affordable.

[Phoebus]

If they could be given the Inner Circle rule, they'd be a good compromise solution.  Seriously, not to sound like a broken record, but I was just going over the new Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and it's so frustrating that each and every Chaos Space Marine unit either has the Veterans of the Long War rule (which bestows Hatred: Space Marines) or can buy it at an incredibly cheap per-model cost.  Given this obvious precedent, I hate that we can't slam Inner Circle on Characters such as Veteran Sergeants so badly!

[Polythemus]

in all the games i have ever played i fielded him maybe once? hes not as interesting as he should be. if you dont own 100 marines he's tough to justify...

[SvenONE]

DW knights as a bodyguard isn't a bad idea minus the fact that they need to be in CQC to justify THEIR cost, and the only way to get them there with Azrael is... a landraider.  Now we're talking about spending nearly double what we paid for Azrael in the first place to make him more "effective" granted DWK and landraiders have their uses, but is that really a worthwhile investment?  I'm actually really surprised that Azrael can't take ANY command squad of his chosing.  A DW command squad actually would be pretty good as a sturdy standard bearer with Azrael in it.  

[march10k]

IMHO,

 

What Azrael brings to the table falls into several different categories, and you have to get at least some value on several fronts in order to justify his cost.  That's not hard to do, but you have to build your list around him.  Where people get an incorrect negative impression about Azrael is when they require full justification of his points cost from just one aspect of his capabilities.  The most common one is "he's not worth the points cost if he isn't, with the support of a squad that costs more than he does, transported by a crusader, slaying a full squad of MEQs every turn."  Obviously, if you make an 800 point unit out of him, and then expecting 800 points worth of killiness, you are doing it wrong.  Belial isn't killy enough to be a land-raider-priced melee machine.  Similarly, you will never get his points worth out of just standing out of LOS and providing RoB.  And there's a RoB tradeoff if you make use of his ability to unlock new troop types.  Getting 100% value out of any one thing he does doesn't justify his inclusion in a list...far better to get 40-60% value each out of the three main bennies (decent melee/4++, RoB, bikes/termies), and then season with a warlord trait that you'll actually use (10% bonus!).  That gets you an aggregate of 130-190% of the max value of only exploiting one aspect.

 

So what does all that theorycrafting mean to me?  Well, I haven't played the list on the tabletop (yet), but I can fit three plas/plas tactical squads, a lascannon devastator squad (4xRoB!), 12 bikes, and 5 termies (3xUnlock) into an azzy list at 1850.  That would leave Azzy babysitting the lascannons, but with 12 bikes and 5 termies, this list doesn't really need the tacticals to advance, and if the lascannons go in a location near the tacticals, Azzy can serve as counter-assault for the entire green element, so his combat capabilities aren't wasted.  Alternatively, one tactical squad could be changed to a PF and flamer and he could lead them in a more mobile role.  That's probably actually a better idea, but my green lists have been based on a core of 3 plas/plas tactical squads since 1999, and it's served me well, so I'll blow off a few percentage points and play the list I want to play instead of the list I think is optimal.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

What about joining Azrael with a veteran squad? It worked good enough last edition. This version could have a full 10 men Veteran squad with 2 plasma rifles and one multi-melta/missile launcher. They can stay their ground or advance, supporting other squads. All this in a Green army of course. the 4++ will make the veteran last longer in and out of CC, and they can act as a souped up tactical squad. 

[facmanpob]

March10k hit the nail on the head in his second sentence I think. Azrael needs a list built around him, whereas most HQ options are plug and play and will work in a variety of lists without too much thought.

[march10k]

Luci,

 

If you are swimming in scoring units, I like your idea.  But when it comes to scoring units, "more is better" drives me to take a scoring tactical squad over a souped up one.  If only Azzy himself were scoring, or made any unit he joined scoring...that would actually be a good way to reflect his "tactical AND strategic genius" fluff, come to thing of it...

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I'm thinking of something like this:

Azrael

10 Company vets: 2 plasmaguns, 1 MM.

6x 5 tactical marines with Missile launcher and sgt with combi plasma (missile launchers so tacticals can advance and snap fire)

5 black knights with 2 RWGL

10 men dev with lascannon

10 men dev with heavy bolters

whirlwind

RW support suadron: 1 HB+Typhon, 1 HB

 

Now this isvery situational. My current metagame is very odd and pleople just use big bad things with very small enphasis on troops.

Still it'sv60 marines in 1850 points.... together with 4 lascannons, 6 heavy bolters, 7 ML, 3 plasmatalons, 2 plasmaguns, 6 combi plasmas.It's a healthy amount of firepower. Probably 2 librarians with PFG would work better on this list, but the point is demonstrate that Azrael can work if the list is built around him.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Hey March, I agree about building a list around him too. The list variants I used in the above anecdotes were very similar to what you propose, they just don't hit hard enough even with his buffs. Your mileage may vary when you give it a go so good luck and may the Lion protect ;)