Azrael: He's good, but does he work?

[Master Avoghai]

 

 

I do agree that EW should be rarer than it is, but with the influx of more and more of S8 weapons T5 on IC's should be more common. With that said why does Sammuel need EW? He's already T5 and has hit and run, so his survival is already greatly enhanced.

Reason is simple uncomplete reflexion about v5 => v6 translation.

In the previous codex, Sammael on bike wasn't an IC and therefore couldn't join a bike squad to hide.

Moreover at this time, the +1T wasn't taken into account for the purpose of ID.

 

As a matter of consequence, Sammael DID need adamantine cloak to survive.

This piece of wargear, which used to be a generic SM relic in v4 became unique and one of the typical Sammael features.

 

When Vetock made the v6 codex, he simply copy/pasted the rule without thinking about how the v6 meta had already enhanced Sammy's survivability.

 

Extract from : The history of fail in the DA codexes design

Chapter 487 : the RW Grand Master

 

:lol:

[march10k]

Luci,

 

I see where you are coming from.  Personally, I'd rather have three ten man tactical squads.  A dead scoring unit isn't scoring at all!  At the same time, I think four (hardy!) scoring units is sufficient, so maybe 4x10 tacticals, and you still get your veterans to escort Azrael, and most of the other goodies.  4x10 is about 150 points more expensive than 6x5, but I think significantly less susceptible to attrition.  I always rejoice when my opponent brings 5 man tactical squads, they're pretty easy to kill off, while ten man squads have a nasty tendency to limp to the end of the game with 1-3 models still standing.

[Brother Moridius]

I have field Azzy through the last 3 editions of the game and the only time he was a real game changer was in a large Apocalypse game in 6th where his ROB helped an entire battle company stay in place, and was pretty thematic to boot. Otherwise he was always underwhelming and I agree with the previous comments, he needs a list built around him, throwing him in for fun usually doesnt work out. 

[FerociousBeast]

Back to the topic of bodyguards for Azrael, I think it's key to remember that three of his abilities (or four, depending on warlord trait) are force multipliers: Inner Circle (providing fearless to a unit), Rites of Battle, and of course the Lion Helm. Two of those directly benefit the unit he is with, and both are meaningless with Deathwing Knights. Meaning that Azrael's 215 points benefit only himself when he is with the DWKs. Whereas if you put him with a large Company Veterans squad (or Tactical Squad for that matter), his 215 points increase the value of each of the 18 (or 15) point models in his bodyguard.

 

Meaning that that 180 point unit of Company Vets + 215 point Azrael now behaves more like a 280 point unit of Company Vets + 215 point Azrael. That, friends, is what we in the profession call synergy.

 

However, if you put Azrael with DWKs, you're getting exactly what you pay for. Well, except that Azrael himself is boosted to T5 and the DWKs may benefit from Azrael's choice of trait.

[Memento Of Prospero]

As a blood angel player, I've run him with a unit of 15 death company in a landraider. It was glorious.

[SvenONE]

IMHO,

 

What Azrael brings to the table falls into several different categories, and you have to get at least some value on several fronts in order to justify his cost.  That's not hard to do, but you have to build your list around him.  Where people get an incorrect negative impression about Azrael is when they require full justification of his points cost from just one aspect of his capabilities.  The most common one is "he's not worth the points cost if he isn't, with the support of a squad that costs more than he does, transported by a crusader, slaying a full squad of MEQs every turn."  Obviously, if you make an 800 point unit out of him, and then expecting 800 points worth of killiness, you are doing it wrong.  Belial isn't killy enough to be a land-raider-priced melee machine.  Similarly, you will never get his points worth out of just standing out of LOS and providing RoB.  And there's a RoB tradeoff if you make use of his ability to unlock new troop types.  Getting 100% value out of any one thing he does doesn't justify his inclusion in a list...far better to get 40-60% value each out of the three main bennies (decent melee/4++, RoB, bikes/termies), and then season with a warlord trait that you'll actually use (10% bonus!).  That gets you an aggregate of 130-190% of the max value of only exploiting one aspect.

 

I'm confused by this statement.  I'm wrong in believing that if he's going to be in a list, putting him with DWKs/transport is a bad idea?  that's an incorrect negative impression? Not wanting to spend points on him like that makes perfect sense to me. 

 

My overall point with him is that he's almost un-fieldable in sub 1850point games because he restricts your budget elsewhere, as Moridius pointed out, he makes perfect sense in an apocalypse battle.  I just don't see RoB to be as big of a perk as some consider it to be.  Most units in our codex are Ld8 or 9 and either stubborn or fearless.  Failing a LD check as a space marine is hardly the end of the world.  LD10 for everyone quite honestly doesn't really mean a whole lot for me.  Especially when I can put cheaper HQ units into troop units if need be.

 

You need that higher point ceiling to build that army around him like you said, I wholeheartedly agree with this.  You would know especially since you've said before that your DW list doesn't really work as well at 1500 points because things start to get really tight.  The same principles are applied here where you don't want to be buying things that are just for one purpose (i.e. ablative wounds for Azrael just standing around).  My point about his cost is that once I get that high in my point budget (1850-2000), do I really need Azrael.  Is he doing something that say a PFG librarian (or 2) can't or vice versa? Is he bringing more to the table in a RW centric list than Sammael would or Belial? That's where I start to doubt the need for Azrael in a list.  Because I can spend slightly less for an HQ that fills a role I need entirely, rather than paying a premium and bringing in other things that I'm not valuing as much.  Truthfully if you are playing high point games like 2500 or 3000, I think he's totally worthwhile.

 

Meanwhile, as far as his bodyguard discussion goes.  I agree with Luci and the Vet squad.  My codex isn't near me but I believe you can swap up to 3 vets' wargear with your choice of combi weapon or power weapon, and for every 5 get your standard assault weapon and any one of them may take heavy weapon (I don't believe it's written like tacticals where it specifically says 10)

 

Meaning a squad of  9 + Azrael in a drop pod you can go shooty and get 3 combis, 1 plasma, 1 multi melta (or heavy bolter).  Or hitty and turn those 3 combis into power weapons.  If you go either the terminator or bike route, you can get some support to start bullying scoring units.  You're basically giving him 9 ablative wounds, and vets are no slouches in combat, especially on a charge.  That's probably one of the more budget ways of fielding him, getting the best use of his traits, while using his melee prowess (after all, this is a +2S AP weapon, it's at the very least going to force armor saves) without breaking the bank.

[FerociousBeast]

With the FAQ, ALL company veterans in a squad can take combi weapons or melee weapons. 1 model for each 5 can take a special weapon. 1 model can take a heavy weapon.

[Prot]

I'm interested in this thread, admittedly I've never used Azrael as I exclusively play Ravenwing for now, but I want to try him.

 

This is kind of a side question but it's been suggested to use him with Termies to get the Inner Circle mojo going but I was wondering, if he is challenged and moved towards the challenge, does he lose his toughness 5? (Sorry if this has been asked/answered).

 

Also I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to put him with regular terminators in a crusader instead of DWK, just so he's actually in a scoring unit?

 

Vets sounds plausible... you lose the effect of inner circle but gain a bigger force multiplier in the invulnerable.

[SvenONE]

With the FAQ, ALL company veterans in a squad can take combi weapons or melee weapons. 1 model for each 5 can take a special weapon. 1 model can take a heavy weapon.

 

Ahh so you can go hog wild with combis/power weapons, the more the merrier!

 

 

I'm interested in this thread, admittedly I've never used Azrael as I exclusively play Ravenwing for now, but I want to try him.

 

This is kind of a side question but it's been suggested to use him with Termies to get the Inner Circle mojo going but I was wondering, if he is challenged and moved towards the challenge, does he lose his toughness 5? (Sorry if this has been asked/answered).

 

Also I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to put him with regular terminators in a crusader instead of DWK, just so he's actually in a scoring unit?

 

Vets sounds plausible... you lose the effect of inner circle but gain a bigger force multiplier in the invulnerable.

 

 

By losing the inner circle I imagine you mean fortress of shields? Depending on how you set your list up, you may still be able to get a DWK squad in there somewhere to deep strike near the bikes/drop pod example that I suggested earlier.  It may be a little more trouble than its worth.  But 9 vets around him isn't too bad either, they'd be more than happy to die for him!

 

The business of putting him in a crusader was the conundrum I was talking about earlier, a lot of points into few models if you max everything out we're talking almost 1000 points.  It's not the worst because after all these a terminators and a landraider, but you're most likely going to miss out on a turn of shooting and a twinlinked heavy weapon.  I guess a way around that would be to DS a combat squad of terminators with the 2 heavy weapons in the DS squad.  Fill out the rest of your list with tacs in rhinos or bikes I guess you'd do ok.

[FerociousBeast]

Vets sounds plausible... you lose the effect of inner circle but gain a bigger force multiplier in the invulnerable.

 

Not sure what you mean... Inner Circle grants Fearless, which is conferred to Azrael's unit, and a bonus against CSM which Azrael still retains.

[facmanpob]

Out of interest, has anyone tried him with a 50-man IG blob?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I usually run him with Tacticals, he keeps that unit alive longer than anything else when there are HellDrakes running amok.

[CastellanDeMolay]

You could ally in some Black Templars and place him with a 20 man Crusader blob. It's only 240 points before wargear/veteran upgrades and can stretch out to cover 2 home objectives. Alternatively you can kit it out for CC and march it up the board. (just don't kill them if they argue about who gets custody of the prisoners, ok? :P)

 

As was said further above, Azrael would complement Death Company nicely. At 20 points per model they're pricey, but they come with FNP and they're really nasty once they get into assault, which will make them pretty hard to kill when combined with a 4++. 

 

Either way mobility is a problem though. 

[facmanpob]

 

You could ally in some Black Templars and place him with a 20 man Crusader blob. It's only 240 points before wargear/veteran upgrades and can stretch out to cover 2 home objectives.

Sorry, but a unit can only control 1 objective at any one time (BRB P123)

[CastellanDeMolay]

 

 

You could ally in some Black Templars and place him with a 20 man Crusader blob. It's only 240 points before wargear/veteran upgrades and can stretch out to cover 2 home objectives.

Sorry, but a unit can only control 1 objective at any one time (BRB P123)

Right you are, I was thinking of ye goode olden days. 

[shabbadoo]

However, if you put Azrael with DWKs, you're getting exactly what you pay for. Well, except that Azrael himself is boosted to T5 and the DWKs may benefit from Azrael's choice of trait.

Azrael will usually only get the Toughness 5 bonus versus shooting attacks, because once the unit engages in close combat, the unit will break up by Initiative step, Azrael will no longer be in base-to-base contact with two Deathwing Knights, and so will lose the Fortress of Shields +1 Toughness bonus.

Otherwise I agree that, to best make use of Azrael's potential benefits, Azrael should go in a mainly close combat-oriented Company Veterans Squad, in which case I would prefer to think of them more as a bunch of "Heroes of the Chapter" rather than as veterans from any particular Company (because it is cooler ).

[FerociousBeast]

So what's the best delivery mechanism for Azrael and a squad of Company Veterans? In my mind there are really only two options: Land Raider or drop pod. March10k has advocated for foot-slogging, but I'm just not convinced. A drop pod is cheap and can get them where they're going much faster, provides some LOS blocking, and can't be easily countered by enemy deployment.

 

The downside is that you can only take 9 veterans if you're going to pod them. Meaning only 1 special weapon and you can't combat squad out of the drop pod. Probably not a big deal if you're going for choppy anyway. But with a Land Raider, you can take 10 veterans and 2 special weapons, and can attach more characters, too, if you want. Say a Librarian, Chaplain, or Techmarine. But it's expensive and you still can't combat squad out of the Land Raider, since it's not a dedicated transport.

[johnyocum]

Personally, I've only used Azrael once, in a mixed Death/Raven list, just to open both as troops, and gave him a command squad of power armor as a bodyguard/banner bearer, with Ezekiel also running around.  If you're not going to use any tac squads at all, but mixed DWTS and RAS only, Azrael might be a better HQ if you need both to be scoring, because he does so.

 

I've not played many games with that mixed Deathwing/Ravenwing army because it was just too small for my taste (I prefer something with a few more bodies, like a 3-4 tac squad list), but it generally does well enough in a friendly environment.

[Prot]

 

With the FAQ, ALL company veterans in a squad can take combi weapons or melee weapons. 1 model for each 5 can take a special weapon. 1 model can take a heavy weapon.

 

Ahh so you can go hog wild with combis/power weapons, the more the merrier!

 

 

>I'm interested in this thread, admittedly I've never used Azrael as I exclusively play Ravenwing for now, but I want to try him.

 

This is kind of a side question but it's been suggested to use him with Termies to get the Inner Circle mojo going but I was wondering, if he is challenged and moved towards the challenge, does he lose his toughness 5? (Sorry if this has been asked/answered).

 

Also I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to put him with regular terminators in a crusader instead of DWK, just so he's actually in a scoring unit?

 

Vets sounds plausible... you lose the effect of inner circle but gain a bigger force multiplier in the invulnerable.

 

 

By losing the inner circle I imagine you mean fortress of shields? Depending on how you set your list up, you may still be able to get a DWK squad in there somewhere to deep strike near the bikes/drop pod example that I suggested earlier.  It may be a little more trouble than its worth.  But 9 vets around him isn't too bad either, they'd be more than happy to die for him!

 

The business of putting him in a crusader was the conundrum I was talking about earlier, a lot of points into few models if you max everything out we're talking almost 1000 points.  It's not the worst because after all these a terminators and a landraider, but you're most likely going to miss out on a turn of shooting and a twinlinked heavy weapon.  I guess a way around that would be to DS a combat squad of terminators with the 2 heavy weapons in the DS squad.  Fill out the rest of your list with tacs in rhinos or bikes I guess you'd do ok.

 

 

Yes sorry I was having a brain fart. Thanks for the clarity.

 

Yea, I've always kind of hated putting a 1K unit together and praying that it has an actual effect in the game.

[SvenONE]

So what's the best delivery mechanism for Azrael and a squad of Company Veterans? In my mind there are really only two options: Land Raider or drop pod. March10k has advocated for foot-slogging, but I'm just not convinced. A drop pod is cheap and can get them where they're going much faster, provides some LOS blocking, and can't be easily countered by enemy deployment.

 

The downside is that you can only take 9 veterans if you're going to pod them. Meaning only 1 special weapon and you can't combat squad out of the drop pod. Probably not a big deal if you're going for choppy anyway. But with a Land Raider, you can take 10 veterans and 2 special weapons, and can attach more characters, too, if you want. Say a Librarian, Chaplain, or Techmarine. But it's expensive and you still can't combat squad out of the Land Raider, since it's not a dedicated transport.

 

I agree drop pod is the way to go.  I think I'm ok with 9 vets given the fact that you can still get a combi weapon in there at the very least.  Here's how I see the basis of a list with Azrael around 1500 points minimum and you can start going from there with odds and ends (though there isn't really much room)

 

HQ:

Azrael

 

Elite:

9 Vet Squad (1 plasma, 2 combi plasma, 2 power swords) in Drop Pod

 

Troops:

10 Man Tac Squad 1 (PG, Melta, or even flamer, Heavy of your choice) in Drop Pod

10 Man Tac Squad 2 (PG, Heavy Weapon of your Choice) Rhino

10 Man Tac Squad 3 (PG, Heavy Weapon of your Choice) Rhino

6 Man Ravenwing Attack Squad 1 (2x Melta, maybe vet sarge/power sword) + MMAB 

6 Man Ravenwing Attack Squad 1 (2x Melta, maybe vet sarge/power sword) + MMAB

 

I think that's a half decent start of a list that's got some punch and a lot of mobility, I've done a slightly different list than this, but I think if you go the vet route you miss out on the banner.  Trading off your entire army's bolters for a little more survivability for Azrael and combat effectiveness (he's got a few more buddies tossing out hits/wounds at AP3).

 

You've got a decent 1st turn alpha strike with the bikes and Azrael's drop pod (remember his weapon can blind a unit so that can buy you some survivability).  You can continue to build the list as you see fit to 1850 or 2000.  You can add a command squad and a libby in a pod or razorback near all your bolters/ravenwing for a pretty bolterific volley, you've got room for terminators or a land raider, landspeeders in the attack squads, black knights, devastators, whatever fits your play style really.  I'm not sold on running a terminator heavy list with him, only because if you're going to do that I feel you may as well just bring Belial in his place instead, I guess the same could be said for Sammael, but at least in this sort of list  you have the option of getting a cheaper banner/command squad with or without the librarian (as infantry).

[Vissah]

I am building towards a list with Azrael and I think you should not look at his killing powers but everything else he brings to the table.

Cypher (Counts as Azrael)

Librarian

2x5 Terminators CM

3x10 Tacticals PG, HB, Vet, PS

1x8 Devastators ML, Flakk

1x8 Devastators LC

Aegiss Defence Line, Quad Gun

1850

The list does not have a lot of mobility in terms of droppods or rhino's but I think when it advances up the field with Terminators coming in turn 1 or 2 and being supported by the Dev's it will pack a punch. You can play it static or move midfield with all the tacs with Azrael.

Warlord trait Iw ould choose courage of the Lion so when you move up with 3x10 tacticals they will not be running away and the Terminators that are coming in will also stay were they are. I just love fielding Stubborn or Fearless models cause I hate taking LD tests

[march10k]

I'm okay with drop podding Azzy and vets, as long as you're deepstriking them together with other units.  Like DWAing two terminator squads alongside them, turbo-boosting some bikes to support them, drop-podding some tacticals and/or dreads in with them, you know, something.  Supporting them with fire from your deployment zone isn't really enough, though, and what I've mostly seen (your meta may vary) is 1-2 units going deep as a distraction, which only results in a quick death...and Azzy's too good for that.  That would give up the warlord point and a whole chunk of your army for little gain.

 

I have advocated footslogging.  It's a little slower than a rhino, but only until the rhino gets stopped.  Then you lose a few inches, and if they pop the rhino at a moment when you're in assault range of them, you're stuck inching back towards your table edge or letting them assault you.  The whole bit about not being able to assault the turn that you dismount is an issue even if the rhino isn't popped.  If you're only planning to shoot, then using a rhino for mobility isn't terrible, you might actually gain a few inches.  But that's not the purpose of the Azzy+vets squad...they shoot...and assault.  And any time you want to assault, a rhino is bad news, even if it is destroyed.  Footslogging isn't a bad option if you have a 3+/4++ save and a full eleven models in the unit.  The amount of shooting that it takes to make a dent in that extends protection to other units advancing along with you, or the other units take the fire and you advance the vets unscathed.  Neither option is a good one for the enemy, since the tactical squads to Azzy's right and left would not even need to be healthy on arrival, they just need to survive and score while the vets do the heavy lifting.   Of course, the only real advantages this offers over the drop pod idea are points savings and the tenth vet/second special weapon.

[shabbadoo]

Best delivery method is a Drop Pod if you include some shooty elements in the Company Veterans unit and want to get in the enemy's face immediately.  In this case, it is okay to favor the shooty side of things more, as the unit can not Assault on the turn the Drop Pod lands (this is really when you want plasma guns and combi-plasmas for rapid firing).

 

But, if you want a full-sized unit of Company Veterans with as many special weapons as possible, go for a Land Raider Redeemer/Crusader.  Andi you go the expensive Land Raider route, don't be adverse to throwing in a bare bones Librarian just to get access to the Prescience psychic power.  There are few things more brutal than this in the game for about 11 points less than a Deathwing Terminator (I go for an average per model cost of about 33 points).  In this set-up you do NOT want plasma guns and combi-plasmas, as the Land Raider's Assault Ramp allows the unit to Assault after disembarking.  Therefore, the special weapons you want here will be flamers/combi-flamers or meltaguns/combi-meltas because the unit can still Assault after firing them.  Yes, this leaves Azrael looking at his combi-plasma and wondering, "Again, why do I have this Lion's Wrath piece of garbage instead of Lion's Roar?", but then you don't want to screw the unit out of being able to Assault because Azrael just had to go and fire his Rapid Fire weapon.  So, Azrael just fires his bolt pistol instead (yes, he has one; see the FAQ), and then they all pile in.  It is an expensive configuration, but if you are going to lump nearly 600 points together, you might as well protect them with the best protection Space Marines have- a Land Raider (with the Deathwing Vehicle and extra armor upgrades even).

 

If footslogging, this unit will be very susceptible to low AP blast attacks, but the greatest thing that the unit will be susceptible to is the most common thing in the game that there is- small arms fire- which the unit has no special protection against, just the 3+ power armor save of a regular Space Marine.  Play to the unit's strengths, not its mediocrities, and so do not give the enemy a chance to pick off any of its members with massed barrages of small arms fire.  It is better to shove the unit down the enemy's throat, such that they over-react to it and hammer it with all of the nasty stuff they have.  In this case, the Company Veterans and Azrael will usually then be taking their 4++ saves against these attacks, while the other units in your army that are more susceptible to attacks from such weapons won't eben be target ed by them if you have deployed this powerhouse unit properly to be an imminent threat.

 

Also, I would only field either set-up in an army list of at least 2,000 points.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

After giving it some thought and trying to go out of the box. Azrael+ 10 men assault squad(2 flamers + combiflamer) . He uses the rapid manouvre trait to run good and try to keep up with them/not slowing them down. . Of course it's not a pure go forward set-up, more of a counter assault setup, just trying to keep it cheap as possible. To make the most of the Rapid Manouvre  trait you can use Black knghts and/or a Bike squads. I know it's far from ideal, but just trying to throw some ideas to make Azrael work.

[march10k]

At 2000+ points, I can't disagree with shabbadoo...at 1750-2000, I don't think you can afford the 330 point veteran squad and the 250+ point land raider, so I'd go for drop podding, if you're drop podding in general, or the footslogging. It's true that the vets are no more protected than a tactical marine who costs half as much against lasguns and pulse rifles...but they're also not scoring, so if the enemy wants to torrent them and ignore your scoring units, he does so at his peril. Besides that, you shouldn't make every model cost 33 points, you should have at least four bullet sponges in there, so you're not losing 33 points per small arms casualty, you're losing 18, and the 4 point difference between them and tacticals is hardly worth crying over, especially given, as stated, that they're not scoring and the enemy is choosing to kill an 18 point decoy in lieu of a 14 point scorer.

 

/edit/

 

Interesting idea, Luci...I would still prefer a jump-chappy for that job, but the 4++ on assault marines sure is tempting.