Khârn: The Eightfold Path

[Scribe]

Wicked dreadlocks man.

[Wade Garrett]

Betrayer describes Angron's daemon form as "wholly beyond the mortal pricklings of the Butcher's Nails" so as Scribe said, they pretty much just make him look kinda Rastafarian.

[Kol Saresk]

Well since his body is now basically a construct of his will, if the Nails are still there, they are not truly the Butcher's Nails but a simulacrum he has created simply because he has always known the Nails and their touch and can't imagine life without.

[Emperor's Scourge]

Wasn't one of the reasons Lorgar pushed Angron into becoming a DP because the Nails were killing him and it was the only way to keep him alive?

 

I'd guess that Angron gets more motivation from Khorne now than he ever did from the Butcher's Nails.  If they're still attached, it'd be safe to say they're inactive.

 

Angron's body isn't real in the sense that he used to be real.  It's a manifestation of Khorne and Angron's will.  Therefore, even if he DID somehow will the Nails to stay with him in his new body...he no longer has a brain.  He no longer has the necessary biological infrastructure to carry those chemical impulses through his physical form.

 

Just what I think.

[Kol Saresk]

Exactly. "The Nails" would be nothing more than a figment of his imagination that only exists because he subconsciously wills them in existence because he doesn't know what it is like to live without them.

[Xin Ceithan]

Neurosurgery in a (at least partial) nonphysical, Warp based Host .... There's Nobel riding on that one;)

[[TA]Typher]

Some people say that Ridilin is over prescribed.

 

Those people never met the World eaters.

[daveNYC]

No guys, it's totally believeable that Horus would trust Angron and the World Eaters to go fetch an object that can be used against him specifically, and that a random Thousand Son officer can figure out how to reverse the effects of the Nails when the Emperor and the Martian priesthood couldn't.

 

Well... to be fair, it can be used against him by psykers.  At which point the World Eaters aren't the worst choice for job.  

[Wade Garrett]

My personal theory about the Angron and the Nails (pre Daemon) is that it's something akin to when people talk about "So and so is hiding in a bottle", that is, staying drunk on anything with alcohol in it they can get their hands on rather facing their grief, depression, etc.

 

Because in the heart of battle, when the song of the Nails is suppressing all conscious thought?

 

Angron isn't mourning his brothers and sisters that died on De'Shelika ridge. He doesn't have to see the sneers of his brothers at the one Primarch that failed to take control of his homeworld. All that is swept away by the rage. That's the "serenity" I believe he's talking about, the moments when he doesn't have to think about or remember a life that can be accurately summed up as "And then the universe urinated on Angron from a great height, repeatedly."

 

So when he becomes a Daemon Prince, Khorne's touch blots out all those regrets and sorrows he was using the Nails to not confront, and he no longer needs them.

[Xin Ceithan]

My personal theory about the Angron and the Nails (pre Daemon) is that it's something akin to when people talk about "So and so is hiding in a bottle", that is, staying drunk on anything with alcohol in it they can get their hands on rather facing their grief, depression, etc.

Because in the heart of battle, when the song of the Nails is suppressing all conscious thought?

Angron isn't mourning his brothers and sisters that died on De'Shelika ridge. He doesn't have to see the sneers of his brothers at the one Primarch that failed to take control of his homeworld. All that is swept away by the rage. That's the "serenity" I believe he's talking about, the moments when he doesn't have to think about or remember a life that can be accurately summed up as "And then the universe urinated on Angron from a great height, repeatedly."

So when he becomes a Daemon Prince, Khorne's touch blots out all those regrets and sorrows he was using the Nails to not confront, and he no longer needs them.

This sums it up pretty nicely IMO

[Kais Klip]

My personal theory about the Angron and the Nails (pre Daemon) is that it's something akin to when people talk about "So and so is hiding in a bottle", that is, staying drunk on anything with alcohol in it they can get their hands on rather facing their grief, depression, etc.

Because in the heart of battle, when the song of the Nails is suppressing all conscious thought?

Angron isn't mourning his brothers and sisters that died on De'Shelika ridge. He doesn't have to see the sneers of his brothers at the one Primarch that failed to take control of his homeworld. All that is swept away by the rage. That's the "serenity" I believe he's talking about, the moments when he doesn't have to think about or remember a life that can be accurately summed up as "And then the universe urinated on Angron from a great height, repeatedly."

So when he becomes a Daemon Prince, Khorne's touch blots out all those regrets and sorrows he was using the Nails to not confront, and he no longer needs them.

It's good sentimentalism, but valid only insofar that it can be proven as invalid. I've said my part regarding the nails and the legionary, but when it comes to Angron I really think the Nails are such an effective creation technologically speaking that the majority of Angron's rage is actually artificial and fuelled by this device; by all intents and purposes the Nails have beaten the primarch into submission to them. To that extent, I think Angron's tirades against the follies of tyrants and dishonorable leaders like the Emperor are again, mostly fueled by the mental rage needing a target to focus upon, however I do think he would have a notable chip on his shoulder regarding them were the Nails absent. More in line with Corax, although more bitter due to his failed revolution and the loss of his brothers.

 

To that extent, I would consider Angron and Corax perfectly interchangeable, different only through the absolute results of their revolutions, were Angron not broken, to all extent of the word, by the Nails.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, I did say it was my opinion (speculation and guesswork) on how they worked, not a set in stone truism of the setting.

 

Although the idea of the Nails just brewing up a storm of rage that gets thrown at the victim's personal bugaboos causes me to imagine a Nailed Guilliman snarling at Russ that the Emperor is a slob, that the very notion of proper organization and logistics is a horror to him, and if Roboute's mind wasn't mutilated he would ascend the steps of the Imperial palace and take the paperwork misfiling bastard's head.

[Stonerhino]

My personal theory about the Angron and the Nails (pre Daemon) is that it's something akin to when people talk about "So and so is hiding in a bottle", that is, staying drunk on anything with alcohol in it they can get their hands on rather facing their grief, depression, etc.

 

Because in the heart of battle, when the song of the Nails is suppressing all conscious thought?

 

Angron isn't mourning his brothers and sisters that died on De'Shelika ridge. He doesn't have to see the sneers of his brothers at the one Primarch that failed to take control of his homeworld. All that is swept away by the rage. That's the "serenity" I believe he's talking about, the moments when he doesn't have to think about or remember a life that can be accurately summed up as "And then the universe urinated on Angron from a great height, repeatedly."

 

So when he becomes a Daemon Prince, Khorne's touch blots out all those regrets and sorrows he was using the Nails to not confront, and he no longer needs them.

I had hoped that this angle would be played up in Betrayer.  Because this is exactly how I felt after hearing The Butcher's Nails.  Like having the Legion fall to Khorne was an end to a tragic story.  Thus beginning the "Good Times" for the World Eaters and Angron.  Rather then just more text telling us how ineffective they are as soldiers + Angron is a daemon now.   

[Dumah]

Honestly, I'm sick of all the "tragic flaw/accident" bologna. Sometimes, bad boys just got to be bad.

[Kol Saresk]

Honestly, I'm sick of all the "tragic flaw/accident" bologna. Sometimes, bad boys just got to be bad.

And sometimes they get worse.

[Kais Klip]

Nah, can't have that in my shakespearean space opera, leave that stuff to the mainstream Star carebears.

[Marshal Rohr]

Honestly, I'm sick of all the "tragic flaw/accident" bologna. Sometimes, bad boys just got to be bad.

 

Emperor's Children and Iron Warriors?

[Dumah]

And the Alpha Legion. No emo nonsense from them...yet.

[Wade Garrett]

 

And the Alpha Legion. No emo nonsense from them...yet.

You mean the guys who joined Horus because some xenos told them that was the only way to fufill the Emperor's true goal of stopping Chaos?

[Conn Eremon]

Not anymore than Fulgrim's "No, creepy sword, I don't wanna, I don't wanna! Stupid painting . . . Stupid . . . Like, everything."

 

Or Perturabo's ". . . Dorn's a :cuss . . . I didn't even wanna help fortify the stupid Palace. Stupid Palace . . . Stupid . . . Like, everything."

[Kais Klip]

 

 

And the Alpha Legion. No emo nonsense from them...yet.

You mean the guys who joined Horus because some xenos told them that was the only way to fufill the Emperor's true goal of stopping Chaos?

No, the guys who found an excellent excuse for posterity should the heresy fail, and a brilliant challenge in the meantime. That's the trick with double agents, they love screwing over the :cusss on both sides ; )

[Scribe]

Thing is, Angron always was tragic. Always.

[Daddywarcrimes]

Honestly, I'm sick of all the "tragic flaw/accident" bologna. Sometimes, bad boys just got to be bad.

 

If they were bad just for the sake of being bad, False Gods would have sold abysmally and the entire HH series would have died on the vine, consigned to just being more mediocre bolter porn.

[Dumah]

You'll notice I said "sometimes", not "all the time". To clarify: I have no issue with some or even most of the traitors having their hands being forced in some way, but all of them? Just way too convenient a plot device (and an obvious marketing ploy to appeal to the anti-hero loving crowd that's so prominent these days). Having every single Traitor Primarch (and a good number of loyalist ones) have daddy issues is just too much for me.

[Scribe]

Well, Lorgar, Curze, Perturabo, Horus, all chose their path for sure. Fulgrim is debatable I guess? Really I think only Magnus and Angron fit a tragic theme. Maybe Mortarion but that tale still needs to be told.

 

Alpharius/Omegon are split so no tragedy there either imo.

 

The good guys dont really have the same daddy issues as the Traitors do they? I mean Sanguinius has some healthy fear sure, but thats because hes a mutant.

 

Dorns fine, if not a bit broken by Curze, Rob is fine, more than that he's already moving on. Lion is fine, Russ is fine, yeah I dont see the issue I guess.