Experiences with Black Legion Supplement

[daboarder]

Wait..,...where in the Codex does it says that a character can only have ONE artifact?...

 

The only thing i see is that an Artifact weapon replace a CCW the character has,...and thats it, nowhere does it say, or let you assume that you cant take 2 Artifacts on one character...

 

or did i miss something.

Yes you can, the argument has been done to death time and time again. each artifact takes a weapon and you have two weapons to swap, therefore you may take two artifacts.

[Sception]

It's in the bit on the armory page for taking artifacts, something about replacing 'a single' weapon with 'one' of the following, such that you would not be able to take more than one.  Raw would imply that the artifacts that don't replace weapons don't count towards that limit, but it's a bit nebulous, and similar 'super special' upgrade packages in other books are clearly limited to 1/character.  I stick to single artifacts myself, to avoid arguing over rules - which I'm fine with online but would rather not waste time with once I'm actually at a game table.

 

Of course, raw, none of the black legion artifacts have that 'doesn't replace a weapon' note, so theoretically even things like the skull or the memory should be replacing one of your weapons, and thus fall under that 'you can replace a single' yadda yadda etc.  Also, daemon princes only have one weapon to replace, so even if you didn't think any restriction applied at all, you'd still only get one weapon-replacing artifact on a prince.

[Valaskjalf]

It's in the bit on the armory page for taking artifacts, something about replacing 'a single' weapon with 'one' of the following, such that you would not be able to take more than one.  Raw would imply that the artifacts that don't replace weapons don't count towards that limit, but it's a bit nebulous, and similar 'super special' upgrade packages in other books are clearly limited to 1/character.  I stick to single artifacts myself, to avoid arguing over rules - which I'm fine with online but would rather not waste time with once I'm actually at a game table.

 

Of course, raw, none of the black legion artifacts have that 'doesn't replace a weapon' note, so theoretically even things like the skull or the memory should be replacing one of your weapons, and thus fall under that 'you can replace a single' yadda yadda etc.  Also, daemon princes only have one weapon to replace, so even if you didn't think any restriction applied at all, you'd still only get one weapon-replacing artifact on a prince.

 

I get what you're saying, but Im wondering about the Skull and Last Memory bit. I still think that one should be able to have two Weapon Artifacts on ie Chaos Lord and if you so wish, be able to have the Skull as well.

 

As per the Supplement it "adorned Skulltaker's Cloak" so in my mind it's more a Wargear item like a Wolftail Talisman (etc.) and wouldn't be something the Lord would run around with in his hand. The same with the Last Memory....I don't know RAW still doesn't convince me eitherway.

[Slayer le Boucher]

To me replacing a "single weapon" for One artifact is 1 for 1, not that you can only exchange ONE and UNIQUE weapon for ONE and UNIQUE Artifact and no more.

[Sception]

When rules are nebulous or seem contradictory, I like to look at similar rules elsewhere in the system to get an idea of precedent. When asking whether BL non-weapon artifacts should replace weapons, RAW says they should, but looking at the precedent set by the artifacts in the parent book, I think it's not unfair to rule that only weapons should replace weapons, even if it isn't the raw. Likewise, when tying to parse the awkward wording for artifact selection, I look at other recent books and find that similar 'artifact' level weapons likewise tend to be one per character, in addition to one of each per army, so that's what I tend to go with when constructing my own lists, even if it isn't exactly the raw, and even if I wouldn't argue against it if someone fielded a character with multiple artifacts against me.

 

Honestly, most artifacts are more expensive than they're worth, and doubling them up doesn't help matters. After all, even if you take the axe and the mace, it's not like you can swing them at the same time. I gues skull/sword lords are ok, but the skull isn't going to make much difference in durability for princes or 2 wound HQs, so on most of them there aren't two artifacts you'd want to give them, anyway.

 

So yeah, apart from skull/sword black legion lords, and maybe brand/axe CSM lords (though even there, if you have the axe you want to be in melee asap, and if you have the brand you don't want to be in melee at all), I'm not sure what dual artifact builds would even be worth considering. One might argue for brand/mace princes, but even if that didn't have the same melee/ranged problems that the brand/axe lord has, it's not even possible by any interpretation of the artifact selection rules, because again princes only have one weapon to replace.

[abadizzle]

No more thread derailment! :) There are TONS of threads on the multiple artefact issue elsewhere! Let's talk about the glory that is Black Legion! I got to play a 1850 black legion list against my friends crimson fists this weekend. I used skull/spineshiver lvl3 DP, 2x5 plas chosen in rhinos, 2x3 DS combi-melta termis, 2 drake, 2 vindi, 2x2 oblits. We played "kill them all" ...what a horrific time to be a space marine! I got the win by turn 4 but he was left w only 2x2 attack bikes after turn 3. The deployment zones and nature of my list just spelled utter doom for the fists. Believe me- play the altar of war missions! They feel SOOooo black legion!

[abadizzle]

Whoops! I used 1x2 oblits not 2x2! He used something like pedro, 2x5 sniper scouts, 3x5 stern in pods, storm raven, 2x2 MM attack bikes, 2 hunters, and maybe 6 or 7 Thammer termis. I kinda power listed him- but he deserves nothing better being a devout servant of the corpse emperor!

[daboarder]

While its fine for you to play that and other rules the way you do in your own little world malisteen would you at least stop acting as if its the commonly held interpretation, ot hell the only interpretation, your offering skewed and biased advice to people with out providing them with access to the information until someone calls you out on it.

 

the actual text is as follows

 

 

A model may replace one weapon with one of the following. Only one of each Chaos Artefact may be taken per army

 

The common interpretation, indeed the one used by GW themselves, is that each weapon a character has may be replaced for a single item on the list (or at least unlocks and item on the list, in the case of the scrolls and the dimensional key)

 

Look across the page at the range weapons and we see the exact same wording

 

 

A model can replace one weapon with....

 

So unless you want to argue that it is impossible to have a champion with a combi-weapon and a plasma pistol (by exchanging two of his weapons) then you need to apply the same logic to the same text in the column next to it, Unless hypocrisy and double standards is your thing.

 

edit: Oh yeah and thats how you build the gunslinging chosen or raptors champions that we;re talked about in an earlier thread.

[chillin]

Obviously strong win abadizzle, but other then the 2 artifacts skull/spineshiver , you played a  rather typical C:csm, minimum csm's in the list , list . 2 drakes, some termicide, a couple of oblits (the vindi's were unusual in that ppl rarely play them, but they have nothing to do w the BL supplement). Do you think the outcome would have been any different had you stuck 2 artifacts from C:csm's on the DP (say mace + brand) ?

[chillin]

How did you kill his T hammer termi's btw ? just plaz them to death ?

[Slayer le Boucher]

JuggerAxelord.

 

Lasr time my Lord got 13 A, landed and wounded 10 in a 9 man DW termi squad, none of them survived, yes, the guy managed to fail 10 invul saves...

 

its always heartwarming to see this.

[abadizzle]

Chillen Yeah I actually blew way too many pts on the DP regardless- but he's actually becoming a good luck charm for me of sorts. The "kill them all" mission allows black legion units to enter ongoing reserves once the entire unit is removed from play. So I played him very wrecklessly and charged the Thammers w him alone. To minimize casualties and hope for back-up he challenged w his sergeant. I slew him w ease. Next turn I butchered another 3 or 4 whilst only suffering one wound- then repeated that on the next turn w his thammers failing to hit me. So it was luck- but the mission itself lends itself to wreckless play on behalf of the legion. If I had to, yes, plas chosen can put a HUGE hurt on Thammer termis. Its a fairly typical list- but plas chosen are often considered too expensive, vindis are indeed seldom used, and my DP didn't have the mace ;) for sure slayer- he's a brute- but this is the black legion thread! He's from vanilla dex! For the warmaster!

[abadizzle]

Also chosen as troops... Seems a pretty BL list to me! And regardless of interpretation I'm certain you can't take burning brand + mace on a DP as he only has one weapon to swap. Skull of kerngar, to me anyway, isn't swapped w a weapon so myself, and my gaming group allow it in combination w the spineshiver!

[Sception]

delete, doublepost

[daboarder]

look, evidence, precedence and even the GW force requisition builder (the one included in the digital codexes, specifically the SM one that has the exact same wording for the relics, ya know and is part of an official GW product and all that) ALL say that it is possible, therefore the overwhelming weight is in support that you can.

[Sception]

While it's fine for you to play that and other rules the way you do in your own little world malisteen would you at least stop acting as if its the commonly held interpretation, ot hell the only interpretation

re-editing for length: would you care to point out where I did that? Maybe when discussion the infiltration issue, which I feel is much more cut and dry, and would gladly argue with you at length if you'd like to start a new thread for it, but here in this thread? The multiple artifacts thing is a well known and open controversy, and all I tried to do was point out the nature of the controversy, why one might need to prepare for table variation, and why I tend to stick to one artifact (as much to avoid having this very argument when I'm at the table as for any other reason).

 

I really don't get where the hostility is coming from, here.

 

Otherwise, yes, I find duel pistol CSM champs to be somewhat sketchy, though like dual artifacts it's not something I'm terribly concerned about since it doesn't strike me as actually any good, either. Plasma Pistols being way too expensive for what they do doesn't stop being true the more of them you take. And unless and until we see another FAQ, I'm not convinced that GW has an official interpretation of anything.

[Lord Doyok]

I haven't yet try the Black Legion. They are very interesting army to play, especially the Bringers of Despair. I would try

 

Abbadon

4 Bringers of Despair | MoKhorne, 3 CMeltas, 1 HFlamer, 4 PAxes, Icon of Wrath

- Dedicated Land Raider | Dozer Blade, Dirge Caster

 

Anyone tried them already?

[Spacefrisian]

It's in the bit on the armory page for taking artifacts, something about replacing 'a single' weapon with 'one' of the following, such that you would not be able to take more than one.  Raw would imply that the artifacts that don't replace weapons don't count towards that limit, but it's a bit nebulous, and similar 'super special' upgrade packages in other books are clearly limited to 1/character.  I stick to single artifacts myself, to avoid arguing over rules - which I'm fine with online but would rather not waste time with once I'm actually at a game table.

You also replace on weapon for a regular powerweapon, your logic is not logical.

[FENRISÚLFUR]

I'm inclined to agree with Mal on this one. Look at another example in the form of the 'and/or replace' type of unit choice entries. For those with the 'and/or' this indicates that both hand weapons can be replaced, while the entry for artifacts says 'a single weapon' which would to me indicate that if you have more than one weapon you can choose which one gets replaced but only one can be.

 

ON Topic;

 

While I know that it may not be competitive and more than likely not the best way to run Black Legion, i'm going to be trying out max squads of csm whith various weapon load outs. Maybe throw Cypher into the mix to infiltrate/shroud one of the big units with double plasma.

[Sception]

You also replace on weapon for a regular powerweapon, your logic is not logical.

 

Actually, melee weapons And terminator weapons in the armory are much more explicit about what can be replaced with what, and in the case of melee weapons use an 'and/or' wording instead of a 'you may replace one' wording.

 

More on topic, has anyone found the skull to actually be helpful on a prince? Maybe it's just me and my opponents, but I haven't run into enough stuff that can instant kill him from outside his charge range or before his initiative to notice that much of a difference, and still have to skulk from cover to cover to block los while advancing and be careful what I charge since it's not hard to kill him though his normal wounds.

 

Has this been anyone elsr's experience?

[FENRISÚLFUR]

I can't speak on the Skull, but in general I have never really had a hard time with my Daemon Princes avoiding instant death. I run them with wings and either keep them in reserve or keep them on the ground behind terrain until a suitable targets is chosen. I'll then either jump them up and assault or fly for a turn to get into position to assault the following turn.

[Sception]

That's pretty much what I do, as I find they don't live long if I don't do that, and I've noticed that it's never really instant death that does them in.

 

I was excited about skull princes at first, but at this point I'm feeling it's much more of an IC upgrade, particularly for non-nurgle characters, as they're far less likely to take small arms fire (being part of a unit), and more likely to have to worry about fists and such, what with S8 being a lot more common than S10, particularly on stuff that can issue challenges.

 

Even there, though, you aren't likely to need it against unit champs unless your opponents run way more terminator squads than mine do, and against opposing ICs... well, it can help, but it's not going to be enough to tip a combat with an artificer/storm shield loyalist character in your favor.

 

I guess it's a bigger deal if you play against grey knights a lot?

[FENRISÚLFUR]

Any army that can bring a number of force weapons would start to concern me, but then again that the reason for having wings. Aside from being grounded, I get to decide where and when the assaults happen.

 

Truth of the matter is , the main reason I take a Prince is to throw off my opponents target priority. 9/10 times they see Daemon Prince's and focus fire on him just because of the $h!t my pants factor. I have found this, more than any other reason, is why I take a Prince. People are scared of what they potentially can do, not necessairly what they will do. (case in point, look at my signature).

The last game I played was an 1850 3 way, and my Eldar opponent shot 75% of his force at the DP. It did ground him, but he only took 1 wound and then wound up winning me the game (by wiping out his troop unit camping on an objective and allowing mine to sneak in).

[Sception]

I generally need princes to kill things.  I tend to find they're too expensive to be satisfied with merely throwing off target priority, especially when tooled up with wings, artifact(s?), psychic powers, and so on.

[FENRISÚLFUR]

I agree and I don't blindly throw them to the enemy, but if it will keep my troops from taking fire for a few turns I will gladly do so. My normal C;CSM prince load out is Wings, MoK, Black Mace and Armor. While not cheap its about as cost effective as I can make him while not getting out of hand in case I do lose him. Normal targets for the prince are squishy troops, AV11-12 transports (thanks to smash) and then lastly used as a tarpit for the elite units that I don't want getting close to my troops. The Prince will often lead my troops to objectives and then break off, or swoop in and lend aid when the troops need some help.

 

I have thought about Spineshiver just for the boost to initiative, but this would be only when running Black Legion. I can't find a good enough reason to run the other BL artifacts on a prince, save for the Last Memory(maybe) as the prince is made for combat and can be used even when in combat (if my memory serves me right).