daboarder Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 don't complain too much, next edition they may take our rhino's away Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3571448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 the last two csm's dex's (esp this one) def gave the feel that chaos is not an army in and of it's self, but a punching bag for s/m's as it is in the BL novels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3571527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 don't complain too much, next edition they may take our rhino's away Too true too. I'd like to keep our rhinos but they can take the land raiders since they've been utterly useless for a long time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3571580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Skull Mask Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 don't complain too much, next edition they may take our rhino's away Too true too. I'd like to keep our rhinos but they can take the land raiders since they've been utterly useless for a long time. You joking bro? Don't put bad ideas into GWs heads!!!!! Raiders are actually pretty good against Tau. And hell, I love them Raiders. I'd probably snap if they were taken away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3571589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 There are always better ways than to spend 250 points on a AV 14 mobile bunker man. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3571634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 A 260 point AV 12 mobile bunker? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3571655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Skull Mask Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Don't know, but the Raider is "only" 230 in my book and the only gear worth considering is a dozerblade or some speakers. If you really spend 250 on it, you really do sth wrong. Not sure about the drop pod. Half the size, capacity, weaponry and points and being a dedicated Transport would have been a deal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3571667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Was just a guesstimate. The last time I used one for a purely fluff game against orks, it probably killed like 4 orks and ineffective shooting against vehicles. Terminators that were inside got out first turn anyway when the green tide got closer. They're just extremely counterproductive but it's been argued back and forth for awhile so I won't argue it now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3571766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Well it depends, the Land Raider is useful if you have a high value unit to protect and deliver in close combat. Overall I prefer Chaos on foot but I often invest in a few Rhinos in order to make certain elements of my army more swift. Namely the Rhino should be used as a way to bring marines into the Rapid Fire range and here I think that a basic squad of 10 CSM with two Plasma Guns are a bit more effective and resilient than the BL Chosen with a similar kit. Sure the first have numbers and the second have the firepower but in the end the scales tip in the CSM favor since if you loose some you still keep your squad combat effective. In the end math is the cruel parameter upon which to evaluate every unit. The Land Raider on the other hand should be useful in the BL case to deliver a solid number of Chosen as a spearhead. But that role is better done by the terminators IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3572385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Okay, I have a question here: I play Red Corsairs, but after I point them up (Ubergrit, Veterans, Marks) I'm paying pretty close to Chosen point levels anyways, so would I be better served by playing them as Chosen with the BL supplement? The only real change I'd make to my two main CSM units (Champ PW, 2 PG) would be adding an embedded Power Weapon to the unit, which I think would be handy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3579790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 yeah Trevak, you're just making your csm unit too expensive, you're trying to make every unit elite . If your going to pay as much as chosen for them anyway, taking chosen might be an option worth considering so can get an xtra attack, and carry more special weapons Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3579816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 with vets & exccwep CSMs are 16 points a model. Chosen with vets are 20 points a model. That's a big chunk extra. Basically, for every five CSMs in your army currently, you could have only 4 chosen. Less, if you added those extra embedded power weapons. So no, I don't recommend shifting to Black Legion chosen, and that's as a guy who runs them. Now, if you could get chosen without the vets upgrade, that would only be 18 points a model, and while still too expensive, it's a much more reasonable comparison to tooled up CSMs. But unfortunately vets costs them two points each instead of the CSM one, and if you want troop chosen you either need to shell out for Abaddon (not a terrible character, but so expensive that you won't really have room left for elite troops), or play Black Legion, which requires the upgrade. If you aren't concerned about your chosen being troops, you might consider running cypher and his fallen out of the recent black library dataslate. They get infiltrate and ATSKNF, and cyphers unit gets shrouded and hit & run, without having to pay extra for vets or the like (though you do have to buy Cypher, and he's not cheap). Frankly, 16 is too much to pay for chaos marines to begin with, imo, and I'd drop the extra close combat weapons. Or at least, restrict them to one or two models in the back of the squad, and skip them on the ablative wounds up front. Vets probably isn't worth it either, but at only one point a model it isn't hurting you all that much. I used to tool up my squads all the time, but my armies work better these days with 14 point CSMs, what with the extra backfield unit of cultists I got by dropping the ccweps. I'd run 13 point chaos marines if I didn't use the Black Legion supplement as a matter of pride. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3579831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 I guess I just take the Extra close combat weapons to further distance myself from the "codex astartes" our faction seems to follow more closely than the loyalists, and I'd gotten used to them having ubergrit with the last codex. I wanted to ask malisteen, I'd seen you mention before how you had some models with BP/CCW in your squads (for WYSIWYG purposes) and was wondering how they handled? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3581617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Why not play SW then , same uber grit and you get good a chaos icon and mark, drop pods and don't have to worry about Ld too much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3581642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 TD: Not great, honestly? Most games I just shove them to the front of the squad so they're the first to die. The bolters just tend to do more for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3581667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Actually I did use SW dex for awhile for my BL (was great , got to use my dreads and juggers for the 1st time in years ) after I got so sick of gav dex . Now I think I give black Templars rules a try, I think it fits pretty well. Has the must challenge thing, but gets a bonus for doing so (like we should have) , can give reg troops bp & ccw, more hth based then s/m's in general. Hell, now that s/m's get oblits, there less and less reason to use the csm dex to represent none-cult csm's (in friendly games of course) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3581682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 I could certainly see going that way, though I'd probably stick to wolves, oblits or no. Wolf Guard just work the way I feel chosen should, which isn't surprising since they seemed modeled after how chosen worked in 3.5. In the end, I don't play enough anymore to get too worked up about rules irl, much as my online discussion might lead one to believe otherwise, so I'll just stick to my chaos marine codex, Black Legion supplement and all, and just be grumpy about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3581686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Can you use CSM characters with the BL codex? Like Huron or Khârn? Could I have him be warlord, or would he have to be an ally? I'm thinking of building two seperate and distinct CSM armies: one that's straight Khorne and assault (Biker Axelord, BB Raptor Lord, Beserkers, Bikers Raptors and walkers Oh My) and one that's unmarked and elite-fightier than Loyalists. Khârn and Huron are my only two special characters. About the only thing I'd be worried of not having would be the Murder Sword, which I take on my TA Sorcerer along with his stave (looks awesome to have a katana and staff). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3586742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FENRISÚLFUR Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Characters when using the Black Legion Supplement, Abaddon approves! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3586748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 TD: Not great, honestly? Most games I just shove them to the front of the squad so they're the first to die. The bolters just tend to do more for me. I wonder if they might be of use if your unit got charged or attacked for some reason-because they'd be 2 attacks base. I seem to recall you saying most of your CSMTacs were armed with Plasma guns, so that wouldn't be the best option except when facing a prospect of taking a charge from something like Orks, Deathcompany, etc. I've found in Killteam games, our basic CSMs mutability is pretty cool. I run vets...because Leadership is king in Killteam, and a variety of guys (B/BP, BP/CCW, etc) but they do pretty well. It's one of the few instances where I take a heavy weapon in a squad (where I can make him a specialist and give him relentless or some such rule) Of course, that's in Killteam, which is to 40k as 40k is to Apocalypse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3592798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Something that amazed me, is that we have no special/named Dreadnought, i mean all those Pesky Loyalist makes some fuzz about 5 millenia old Dreads, with one or two been there with their Primarchs. We are litteraly filled with dreads from this era, even if half of them went insane, doesn't change that we might have one like Bjorn or something else. And the fact that a character becomes insane, doesn't prevent him to have rules, look at one of those Old farts Crons, the one that he still thinks he is living and that everything he sees in battle are in fact the battle of old during the Civil Wars... A Old dread character, completly insane that he thinks he is still fighting in the great crusade, could have been interesting..., or completly gimped with useless rules... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3593136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Having a dread as an HQ upgrade would be pretty neat. If they ever do an IW supplement I hope they stick that in there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3593231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 AV 12 with low HP and no inv seems rather bad to me . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3593235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 If you can't be good, be fluffy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3593259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 A HQ dread with a mutated AV 13 or 14 hull with rules for insanity would be pretty fluffy alright. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285149-experiences-with-black-legion-supplement/page/4/#findComment-3593597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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