Sigvard Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Esteemed brothers. I have for you a question. I have always been under the impression that the Space Wolves did not revere the emperor as a god who walked amongst mortals but as a father figure and great leader of men. Have I been mistaken in my thoughts? I ask as there is a discussion on the Amicus Aedes board regarding the chapters which revere the emperor as a deity. Any answers are most definitely appreciated. Especially as I thought in the 'Emperor's Gift' novel by ADB he is seen to use Bjorn stating his distaste for people revering the Emperor as a god, I believe if I am not mistaken he said "this is where all the problems started." but again I may be mistaken. Thanks in advance. Sigvard Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Most of the first and second founding chapters dont see him as a god, but as the greatest human/warrior that ever lived. They have the saga's and history to tell the tales of Logar and how he was told off for seeing him as a god. The problem comes with later founding's, there "history books" are written by people who worship the Emperor as a god, so they dont know any better than to do what they are told by Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3566976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigvard Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 That was my thought on it also. I know they refer to him as the 'Allfather' which is clearly a reference to Odin from norse mythology but I didn't think that meant they also believed he was a deity. Thanks Max Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3567020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Lord Wodan Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 He is the AllFather. I link this with the belief of Odin as the AllFather, or father of other Gods. The Allfather gave life to the Russ who is a God Guess I should have read everyone else's post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3567304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadir Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Erm... Russ isn't a god... He is just awful awesome space wolve. One of us, but better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3567356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 He closed his eyes and breathed a silent prayer both to the Emperor and to Russ to watch over him and his companions, then smiled. Cold comfort there. Both were chill distant gods, remote from man, their duties performed on a scale that gave them little time to watch over tiny specks like him. They gave men courage and strength and cunning at birth, then expected them to forge their own destinies. -The Space Wolf Omnibus, page 330 Yes, the 40k era Space Wolves revere Russ and the Emperor as gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3567396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Generally Black Library material does not supercede codex material and the Codex dictates otherwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3567428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rift Blade Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Yeah, wish BL would keep the fluff in the codexes in mind when they write but you have a better chance of picking winning lottery #'s. THe Wolves don't honour Russ or the Emperor as gods. Russ is the father of the Wolves. They are made in his image. The Emperor is honoured as the only man to ever beat Russ. At least until somebody at BL writes some fluff & tweaks it to put their spin on things. LOL!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3567593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 He closed his eyes and breathed a silent prayer both to the Emperor and to Russ to watch over him and his companions, then smiled. Cold comfort there. Both were chill distant gods, remote from man, their duties performed on a scale that gave them little time to watch over tiny specks like him. They gave men courage and strength and cunning at birth, then expected them to forge their own destinies. -The Space Wolf Omnibus, page 330 Yes, the 40k era Space Wolves revere Russ and the Emperor as gods. From an older series. From a different time and mindset. The newer/recent books highlight and give more insight than what was once a stereotype of SW. The authors of today give the chapter/legion more depth. But just as most people here have already said, codex fluff is the bible fluff of said chapter. The wolves look at Russ as a mighty warrior, someone to aspire too. And the emperor, being the only one worthy to defeat Russ in combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3567636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 If the Wolf Codex says differently, I shan't argue the point. I will say, in regards to reinforcing goofy VI Legion stereotypes, that it wasn't the Ragnar novels that gave us the glory that is Canis Wolfborn the wolf riding Wolf Lord wielding Wolf Claws as he leads his Wolf Guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3567675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasclomalum Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Not entirely sure on what this is worth, but... doesn't Codex Space Wolves also state that the Land Raider Crusader has shrines dedicated ot Russ and the Allfather in it? That indicates reverence going on religion to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3567695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Outside of the pre-Heresy World Bearers spreading the proto-Ecclesiarchal faith, the Space Wolves are easily the most religious worshipers of the God-Emperor than any other First Founding Legion/Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3567717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I rather thought that the Index Astartes focusing around Chaplains made it pretty clear that relations between most Chapters of Space Marines and the Ecclesiarchy are pretty tense due to the fact that their veneration of the Emperor as the supreme example of Mankind, the father of all Space Marines and Ward of Humanity doesn't include his godhood. Of course, it depends on how you define that godhood. But given past background I would assume worship of the Emperor as a god would be the exception, not the rule, and only so if explicitly stated. I can't access my copy and quote it right now, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3567738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigvard Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 Not entirely sure on what this is worth, but... doesn't Codex Space Wolves also state that the Land Raider Crusader has shrines dedicated ot Russ and the Allfather in it? That indicates reverence going on religion to me. The quote is actually 'Shrines to Russ, the Allfather and the honoured dead." Which to me follows this definition - Shrine - A sacred place, which is dedicated to a specific ancestor, hero martyr or similiar figure of awe and respect, at which they are venerated for their deeds. A shrine is not a place a holy worship exclusively and more often than not it is a place of reverance for ancestors where you can pay homage to those who came before you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3567808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Is that reference from the Space Wolf omnibus from the books written by Bill King or the later ones in the series by Lee Lightner? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3568596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 He is the AllFather. I link this with the belief of Odin as the AllFather, or father of other Gods. The Allfather gave life to the Russ who is a God Guess I should have read everyone else's post Odin isn't a God god. He's an asaheimr warrior-king who is to humans as humans are to ants. God gods aren't mortal. Odin was. Same story with Russ and the Emperor. They are above common mortals, nearly divine, but they are no gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3569428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 God gods? What the heydey ho? So Zeus doesn't count as a god either? Or Osiris? That's a...novel and unique opinion I have not encountered before. Oh, and what I quoted earlier was from the Bill King books, Ragnar's Claw to be specific. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3569480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 a God - god is omnipotent, omniscient and immortal. Zeus was the son of a Titan, not a God. Odin was an Asaheimr, not a God. Both were Warrior Kings for a breed that is to humans as humans are to insects. If this is a novel opinion to you, you have led a verry sheltered life. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3570032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Allfather and the only one to have ever beaten Russ. The 6th venerate him as a warrior, not as a god. Bjorn is pretty clear on this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3570048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 a God - god is omnipotent, omniscient and immortal. Zeus was the son of a Titan, not a God. Odin was an Asaheimr, not a God. Both were Warrior Kings for a breed that is to humans as humans are to insects. If this is a novel opinion to you, you have led a verry sheltered life. Considering that the bulk of studies on mythology, religion, and literature as well as such original texts as we have acess to state that the Olympians and Asgardians were gods, I think I'll stick with my sheltered opinion. But I'm sure the term "God-god" (who lives in Heaven-heaven with Angel-angels?) has a long and respectable pedigree in academic circles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3570284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 congrats on missing the point. Did you have to study long to accomplish such a complete lack of comprehensive reading? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3570309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 This is going nowhere fast and is only going to draw in a mod with cyclonic threadpedoes. I'm just going to say that I disagree with listing the Islamic-Christian-Jewish definition of God (historically a minority view) as the only correct meaning of the term and leave it at that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3570321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 The cult of Russ is old, dating back to the time of the first founding and predating the establishment of the Adeptus Terra. To outsiders, its rituals seem primitive and almost heretical. They stress the power of Russ almost as much as the divinity of the Emperor. At the core of the faith are many prophecies concerning the Space Wolves and the natives of Fenris. Central to its tenants is the belief that the forces of evil will gather and return under the leadership of a resurrected Horus to destroy mankind. It is the duty of the Space Wolves to prepare for this last day, to be ready for the final battle. The Cult Of Russ teaches that the spirit of every warrior who dies bravely in battle joins the Emperor and strengthens him to fight this final battle. This is a grim, savage religion with the power to stir warriors to feats of great heroism. - The Wolves of Fenris WD156 The Space Wolves revere the Emperor as the greets warrior of all time, the only man ever to best the great Leman Russ in hand-to-hand combat. The Space Wolves are not a deeply religious Chapter, a fact which stirs some ill feeling amongst the ranks of the Adeptus. Like the native Fenrisians, they expect little of their gods and rely instead upon their own efforts and valor. When the Space Wolves call upon Russ or the Emperor in battle, it is to witness of the deeds of men and to judge the souls of the fallen. These fierce warrior have little patience with what they see as the fawning superstitions of the Adeptus. Their own cults are rough and ready, designed to serve a fighting man in life and beyond. - 2e Codex, page 13. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3570359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 And a snippet from the Index Astartes article on Chaplains that I was too lazy to retype. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3570392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 congrats on missing the point. Did you have to study long to accomplish such a complete lack of comprehensive reading? Black...keep your comments clinical and non personal please. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285510-space-wolf-beliefs/#findComment-3570448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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