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Aggressive IG allied detachment - need advice


Frater Cornelius

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Hey there lads!

 

I just received my Straken and Harker minis and currently converting 'em to be more spacewolfy (that's a word) with furs and so on to work as an allied detachment to bring HEAVY METAL \m/ onto the field.

 

My question for you is, how can I support/recreate the extremely aggressive SW gameplay I have going on. I dislike gunlines. I am all about getting into the opponents face and a point where players would say that this is too close for comfort for both sides. This is the reason I abandonned Tau, not 'in-your-face' enough.

 

I have Straken (one of the reasons I am doing this), whats sort of Command Squad would be fitting for him? At least one Astropath should be there I suppose if I try to toy with outflanking and the sort. I have the option to attach a Rune Priest, Wolf Priest or any other IC there.

 

For Troops I currently posses 2x 10 unassembled Guardmen and Harker. Should I play 2 Veteran squats to support the front-lines? If so, what special gear would give them? MB and demo charge sounds fun. Also, should I get Chimeras for them as well as Straken?

I am not to fond of the Platoon, too many models and they sit back and provide token firepower. That is not aggressive enough for my tastes. If I split them up in several 10man squads with Heavy Weapon, I might as well go Veterans who bring the, IMO, more useful special weapons.

 

As for Elites? I was thinking about Arnold Schwarzenegger Sly Marbo. Still open to suggestions though.

 

Fast Attack, now. No fliers! It goes against my Chapter's ethos and everything I like about them. Anything smaller than a Thunderhawk will not get into my army. Having said that, what aggressive options are there? I am torn between a Hellhound variant or 3 outflanking Sentinels. Ideas?

 

Heavy Support is reserved for the different Leman Russ Variants. I accept no substitutes. They are a big reason why I am doing this. Manticore will be an option once I upgrade my IG into a full-flegded primary detachment that can stand on its own (which will not happen before the new Codex).

 

On a final note, I have an Inquisitorial detachment for more Divination if need be.

 

Anyway, thoughts and comments are very much appreciated!

Thanks!

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I'm sure more experienced folks will chime in, but when you think about a platoon, take a look at Al'Rahem. Outflanking a full-sized blob,  with their dedicated transports, can feel pretty aggressive. That said, I am in a similar boat as you - amassing models and waiting for the new codex, and I think your stance on veterans is correct, so long as they don't make a lot of changes in the new book.

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Well, it definitely sounds like what your guardsmen will need is transports to get them to the front lines quicker, so chimeras are a must.

For veterans, I'd suggest carapace armor over MB's/demo charge just because then they have a chance against bolter fire.

For fast attack, I'd suggest hellhounds/devildogs depending on who your opponents are. Both are fast tanks, have AV12 on the sides (a rarity on the chimera chassis) and can make your opponents cry when used properly. Devildogs against marines, hellhounds against anything else above a 3+ save. 

For heavy support, though I love artillery, I find the Punisher to be quite useful (especially when combined with Pask) The normal one is quite good, but is lacking now because it's main gun is ordnance so it can't fire it's other guns at full ballistic skill. Demolishers are good too, but suffer the same problem.

 

So, in russes, what are you looking for? Big-caliber guns, gatling guns, plasma cannons (no gets hot on the main cannon!), or autocanons?

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You'll be glad to hear that many people are still stuck in the past and expect Guard to gun line or at best Mechanise for a gun line that moves a little bit, so when your infantry horde goes over the top they will be unpleasantly surprised! I think you're wrong to discount Platoons, in fact I think they might be exactly what you need.

Why take Veterans when Marines do their job better? As SW you get access to more special weapons than normal Marines too. Your Platoon Command Squad can run with multiple weapons (I'd say up to 2 for yompers, 4 for mech) and arming an Infantry Squad with just a special (and maybe Vox if you like) is quite the bargain so you can get a lot of troopers in very cheaply if you so wish smile.png

If your Wolves are riding into battle (I'm assuming this is the case) then Chimeras would be very useful in order to keep up with your Marines. Chimeras are of course pretty capable firing platforms too. The more troops you have with Straken the better he is too, and Veterans are no better than normal Guardsmen in combat. For your Company Command Squad I'd recommend taking Carapace and a couple of Bodyguards for more punch, plus the more models you add the better value the Carapace becomes. A Medic would be good too to help keep the squad going.

Hellhounds are fantastic, and will fit in very well but the variants are just as good depending on what you need. Get a Banewolf in and traitors will be melting in their power armoured booties! Sentinels would be good to outflank with, especially when your army hits the enemy lines so either use of your Fast Attack slot would be good.

As for the Russes, maybe something AT? Your Guard will lack long ranged AT weaponry so it might be useful looking forward. If you don't fancy a Vanquisher what about an Eradicator for removing infantry in cover quickly?

Most important of all: when will we get to see your models? biggrin.png

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actually, as a space wolf player, i think i can give you quite a bit of goood advise.

first of all, space wolves are the kings of 12", our average guardsmen, not so much! while in fluff you may very well like the guardsmen to be rather of the aggresive type you'll quickly find that those aggresive quardsmen might as well have been space wolves. the guardsmen simply don't have the same aggresive options available as space wolves! sure, for the price of 10 grey hunters you can field 30 guardsmen, but those space wolves can be delivered by a 35pts droppod right where you want them to be. those guardsmen, not so much (55 pts chimera, 3 squads,damn, that's almost another 10 men unit of grey hunters!)

 

now while this may not be the thing you want to hear i'll put it even more rashly. don't expect a guardsmen to do a wolves duty!

Guardsmen however do complement space wolves perfectly in other methods! since most of the games nowadays are all about the objectives in a pure SW army you're wasting the firepower of at least 1 grey hunter pack to sit on objectives, and maybe even 2 packs! now if only someone else could babysit those objectives for you in a cheap way!

and that's where the guardsmen come in!

 

the average grey hunter pack quickly costs around 150-200pts. now imagine these 200 points have to sit on that precious 4VP objective a whole army without actually doing anything. that's 200 pts down the drain!

now for those same 200 points you could have a platoon consisting of:

-PCS:autocannon

-inf. sqd: autocannon

-inf.sqd: autocannon

-1 twin linked autocannon sabre platforms as an anti flyer platform. 

(ok that comes in at 205 pts), yet it still is much better at babysitting on the same objective since for those same points you now suddently get 25 bodies your opponent has to remove from the objective, not to mention the 8 48"S7ap4 shots you're banging out (of which 2 are twin linked,and with skyfire and interceptor!)

 

 

besides the platoon structure, there is actually no troopchoice the guard have to offer you that's interesting. grey hunters will outperform veterans on each and every occasion so don't even bother with taking them.

 

also, you should look into the options the guards offer for flyers! the whole "feet on the ground as russ intended" is meant in a whole different way and disproven in fluff a countless times!

 

what my long post to is basicly the following:

why do SW need allies?

-cheap scoring units to hold your own objectives while the SW do all the conquering

-antiflyer options

-some extra long range firepower.

 

Now if you were to post how many points you are willing to invest in allies, and the space wolves list you're using we might be able to give some more usefull insight. remember, there's only so much allies can do as an allied detachment, and it should not go at the cost of the combat effectiveness of your space wolves!

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i agree with everyone's comments above, especially in regards to platoons. i'd say that with platoons you do have the option of not including a heavy weapon which would allow them to shoot at their full BS when they move (ie not having to fire snap shots with most heavy weapons when they move), and instead all the heavy weaponry can be put into HWTs, who can support both the guard and SW elements. if you're planning on making them fast moving i also second the vitality of chimeras - they're not only a great transport vehicle that can get you to objectives that have been cleared by your SWs, but have a decent amount of firepower for a transport that can give cause for concern among a fair few enemies.

hope to see some models up soon. i don't know if you'd thought about modelling your minis so did a quick googly search and found a B&C thread from last year, )brother hendrik might remember this one msn-wink.gif) :http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277974-wolfy-imperial-guard/ to be fair brother hendrik does give great advice in that thread too (i'm beginning to think he's actually a wolfguard undercover tongue.png )

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busted! although over at the fang we prefer the term greybeard! ;) i started playing with space wolves somewhere in early 4th edition, using their 3rd edition codex for a long long time and continued playing with only space wolves up to 6th edition. then i tried out a small imperial guard force(mostly since i had already bought a valkyrie for a scenario game we once did. either way, ever since i've been hooked as a threadhead and my spacewolves have rarely seen daylight again! hence why in my post i also said it's important to clearly limit how many points you're willing to spend on the allies. while most players here favour a large guard part of your force, i'm sure you will quickly discover that with all the advise your force will be slowly be taken over by imperial guard. hence why i told you to only take allies to fill out any lacking departsment in your SW list (scoring bodies and anti air). all else could be done better by the wolves and therefor should be not included, unless there is a really specific reason for it!

 

just to give an example:

sure 40 guardsmen advincing forward in their chimeras seems like a cool idea, but that will cost you at least 420 pts. for those points you could have 2 mechanised grey hunter packs who will outperform those 40 guardsmen!

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hendrik, you offer very sound tactical advice. Unfortunately nothing I did not know already, just tried to avoid. You see, I am a guy who brings way too much fluff into his competitive lists. My wolves have won couple tourneys like that. Hence I approach my IG the same way, this is why Straken appeals so much to me. I might reconsider the Platoon though given the amount of Divination I can toss around.

 

There is one thing that bugs me though. I am against casualties, even tactical ones, if they can be avoided. I like to reflect that in my lists. The problem is that the 25man Platoon is very expendible. Most will not see their homes again (they are not regular IG but auxiliries from my lost company's planet) and this I do not like. Veterans can at least get 3+ or even 2+ cover with harker. However, I like the tactical options of having then split up and have quite some S7 shooting to boot. Oh boy, the amount of conversions....

 

As for the fliers? No! It is not the SW stuff but the ethos of my company. When I will be ready to publish that story/IA/whatever you want to call it, I will go into more details there. If you ever played WoW, you might've heard about the Iron Horde. That is the feel I am going for in the end. Heavy Metal warmachines and not some swift fliers. As I said, nothing lighter than a Thunderhawk will ever see my shelf.

 

On the subject of aggressiveness. Well, it does not means CC and by extension not even CQC. Aggressiveness means immediate and unyielding pressure. The opponent must be at a loss where to focus because of many real threats approaching. It works on many players, by turn 2 he should be surrounded and by turn 4 the game should be practically over. Such fast gameplay has often benefited me and fits with the relentless force that is my company. War is their life-blood and victory their birth-right. Their bond is iron and their will unbreakable. None shall stand before them. Alternatively I make a slower but much more unrelenting force of footsloggers that can not be stopped from marching across the board and wiping everything of it.

And given this attitude I felt that Straken is the way to go. Not only do I get the heavy IG warmachines and the IG shooty benefits, he can be a real threat once he closed the gap and prepared GM to be a threat up close if need be. Sure, they will shoot but they can counter-attack and have Furious Charge should a situation arise where CC and CQC is unavoidable. It does not means that I will rush into CC with my GM, I am merely prepared on all fronts. Hence I thought veterans might be a nice source of pressure. Now as I am regarding the Platoon, some ideas spring to mind though. Just as above though, I am against a Chenkov style gameplay that sacrifices drowes of men. If they go out it must be covered in blood of their enemies and a warcry on their lips and preferbaly in glorious combat so that they can meet their ancestors with pride and not shame.

 

As the the LR? I have all options at home and will use which ever compliments the force as a whole.

 

Now, the force comp and amount of points is more complicated. For now I want to stay reasonable and limit it at 700 max, preferably around 500-550. The thing is, my plan is to build one army. This army is my Lost Company. It will consist of two armies that play very well on concert with each other to fill primary and allied detachment as need be and a special detachment which in my case is Inquisition (against, not real Inq. but another part of my Iron Horde).

My SW are limited to 3-4 full GH squads with each power weapon and special weapon choice, banner and wulfen, 1-2 full BC squads with all options. Several WGTDA squads with some options, 2 Longfang Squads with some options. Several rhinos/razorbacks, 3 pods, Rune Priests, some Wolf Priests, Thunderlords, TWC, 2 lone wolves and all named characters. I prefer the sight in infantry going to glorious warfare. I am also limiting myself because I hate models gathering dust. I have my company's ethos, I know their tactics and I have a force that sees regular use and no dust. Same thing I want to have with IG. I do not want to many models (one reason against Platoons) but rather a themed and strong force that I can use alone or together with SW. As such I do not think that I will go above 1500 points with IG, seeing as I have SW and INQ. All I need is Arnold, Straken HQ (maybe another if I ever need one), Possibly some FA, but that is still up to debate, 2 Leman Russ tanks (possibly some artillery but that is pushing it) and that's it.

 

In the end, it is SW that are the core, whatever detachment they are in. The IG are a complementary auxiliary force to bring those warmachines and bit of diversity.

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for an "up your face" approach, and given tha fact that you already have an inquisitorial detachment, have you considered using them?

an acolyte has the exact same stats as a guardmen, and only costs 4pts. for 1 point you can give him a bolter, making him a lot more dangerous than our 5pts lasgun armed acolyte! mount them in inquisitorial chimeras and you've got an incredible firebase. sure, you might not be able to give them orders but the increased statline of the bolter should more then make up for those couple of extra shots missed!

personnally i feel straken is a really expensive character and needs a list to be build around him.

 

I really get the fact that you want your little men to live, it's a typical space wolf thing too (always protecting the little men!) and i've tried tooling up my veterans in every possible way, only to always having to conclude they just can't cut it in comparison to grey hunters.(even in cover the grey hunters might get a worse cover save, but on most occasions they'll still have their 3+ armour save to rely on, not to mention T4 makes them harder to wound). one of the most important things i learned that way about guard is to calculate your losses and learn to deal with them. the fact is that simple, just like in the fluff, guardsmen will die by the dozen, even the veterans. the way guardsmen players make this work it to calculate those odds into their lists and to make sure that for every model removed from play there will still be another there to do it. also keep in mind the allies chart only allows your 2  troop choices and the fact that even the most outkitted veteran squad cannot compare to a grey hunter pack and you'll quickly realise why we suggest the platoon.

 

here's a quick mock up list based upon your principle of applying pressure on the opponent, i did not include straken due to his limited bonusses compared to action output (remember you're paying 95pts for those bonusses! that''s almost a whole extra unit!)

-company command squad:4x plasmagun, chimera: multilaser, hull HF 165 pts

-platoon:

PCS: 4x grenade launcher, chimera: multilaser, hull HF, 105 pts

inf sqd: flamer, chimera: multilaser, hull HF 110 pts

inf sqd: flamer, chimera: multilaser, hull HF 110 pts

inf sqd: flamer, chimera: multilaser, hull HF 110 pts

 

 

however, this is already a 600 pts allied detachment, and that's without including a leman russ! and actually closer to starting a second army, then just having an allied detachment!

 

personally i think this sounds like a much more solid list:

your 2 divination casting inquisitors

12 acolytes, 12 bolters, chimera: multilaser, hull HF 115pts

12 acolytes, 12 bolters, chimera: multilaser, hull HF 115pts

12 acolytes, 12 bolters, chimera: multilaser, hull HF 115pts

yes this list is 2 units smaller, but each squad could be tooled in a much more efficient way, heck adding a jakaero(or rather a tech savy acolyte?) in each of those units could greatly enhance their battlefield performance (you pay 25 pts for the lascannon/multimelta/heavy flamer, and 40 pts for a lot of nifty updates (rending, or 36" range bolters anyone?). not to mention you're avoinding the extra HQ tax since you're already taking those inquisitors.

 

but than what about the tanks?-i hear you say? well don't worry my friend, the imperial guard can offer that too without needing to play imperial guard!

check out the imperial armour volume one second edition armoured battalion list! it basicly allows you to take a leman russ as a HQ choice, with leman russes as troops choices and pretty much any tank from the imperial arsenal, except manticores (which would not complement your playstyle anyway)...

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Hm I have heard stuff about the Armoured Battlegroup. Let me have a lo- ... ... by Russ, this :cuss right here. Tanks, glorious Tanks! Very nice job shoving this one in my face. I just imagined my SW infantry wave supported by a front AV14 warmachines with many awesome heavy metal addons (LRBT with heavy flamer large blast? yes please). I mean they have a tank that spreads a Ld10 bubble to all friendly units making all SW really persistent. Now THAT is a relentless force. The orders seem nice too. They make a pretty interesting allied detachment because you basically just add some custom LR to your army with no tax, considering that LR is what you want, and you have the added bonus of having sentinels and hellhounds. I hate to agree with hendrik (I am stubborn like this) but his reasoning is sound. The henchmen make for superior backfield scorer and support guy than GM at equal cost while the armoured battlegroup satisfies my need for heavy warmachines. One thing is stopping me from getting on with this plan would be the possibly imminent IG codex and the possible goodies they might bring.
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give it some time whelp,and you'll learn to listen to the advice of greybeards! lol

i do need to point out the commissar tank Ld10 bubble only works on imperial guard units but who care, i mean, 

TANKS!!

I also wouldn't worry too hard about a new dex possibly coming out in march. the leman russ kits won't change much, and the inquisitor codex will still be legal!

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Who are you calling a whelp! I'll show you! *flips table and throws his mug at hendrik*

 

Anyway, I think I can make a suitable HQ LR out my tank at home:

 

Company Command Tank
- Vanquisher battle cannon
- Lascannon (just in case the twin-linked vanquisher fails to do anything)
- Co-axial heavy stubber
- Artificer hull

- - - > 210 Points

 

Optional/Situational Wargear
- Camo-netting (when sticking to long ranged support, as a vanquisher should, also works well in concert with the 5+ cover save Rune Priests can produce)
- Beast Hunter Shells (Against all those MCs, VERY useful, especially since it's potentially twin-linked)
 - - - > 245 Punkte

 

Costs quite a bit, but hell, I recon he will pack some serious punch.

 

Those named gentlemen could possibly be an option for higher point games due to the bubbles they produce (I like the stubborn one). Other than that, I think I am better of with a Command Tank.

 

As for troops, you guessed it: MOAR TANKS!!!!!

 

I would take up to two LR (probably one Battle Tank Squadron and a Siege Tank Squadron to have different guns to come back to), either Battle Tanks or whatever suits my needs.

 

I just read all the rules so Commissar Tank is out due to his limitation. Techpriests could be an option but I do not want to go overboard.

 

Skipping HS for now because I have little experience with Artillery and are not particularly interested in them. Best to bring MOAR TANKS!!!

 

Fast Attack is a very interesting slot though, Hellhounds and Sentinels are still high on my list (Sentinels more so). However, the Tauros could be an interesting option. And... as much as I HATE to admit it: the Vulture caught my eye. I like that thing, Twin-Linked Punisher? Yes please. Can also be taken in a squadron, which is nice to eliminate FOC limitations. It's a freaking heavy metal gunship, no transport or whatever, just dakka. The only issue I have with it is that it's a flier Oo. And I dislike fliers (unless you are talking about a Thunderhawk, but I do not few him as flier anyway, more like an airborne fortress *drool*).

 

Anyway, that's the idea so far. Gonna be thinking a bit about the Acolytes as pseudo GM helping out the SW with their tanks, but that's a matter for another time though.

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what list will these tanks function in? personally i've not bothered with taking artificar hull on my command vanquishers due to trying to keep costs low so to include more units. personally i value beast hunter shells much more (these can insta gibb tyranids, annoying deamon princes,riptides anything really!). since you're playing space wolves the exterminator is a must have,since it's a great dakka monster!

also, don't be so quick to dismiss flyers! sure, your lost company space wolves might not like smaller-than-thunderhawk-aircrafts, but only a foolish commander would forgo the firepower a vulture(or any flyer really) can bring!

 

depending on how your space wolf force works sentinels could be a great addition, although i would prefer a vuture with his twin linked punisher gatling cannon and strafing run. it definetly has a larger killing output then my sentinels!

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I say! You Wolves keep your tables down and you mugs firmly upon them (on coasters, of course, so you don't stain the table). This is a civilised land and we won't tolerate such bad manners :lol:

 

I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with you once more Immer. I take plenty of Infantry, and each and every model on the table is a beloved son or daughter and I will swear bloody and merciless vengeance for each one who falls in His glorious name. You can never guarantee a casualty free battle regardless of army but you sure as hell don't need to treat it like a meat grinder.

 

Play clever and win - larger numbers of troops aren't there to absorb losses but rather to ensure victory!

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The Vanquisher makes IMO the best command Tank, so he stays there in most cases to either instagib stuff or pop tanks from a distance. Then I am plannign to get one each of the LR boxes to have all weapons for 2 more LR.

This gives me enough flexibility to adjust them to any list I see fit. Not quite sold on the flier though. If I can get a cheap Vulture on ebay I will try them out, if not then I'll pass.

 

As for the purpose of those tanks? Well, they can spearhead a Rhino-Rush with RP tossing out 5+ cover likes there's no tomorrow, Alternatively they can give me early long ranged pressure when decide Loganwing or a Ragnar/BC footlist. Given how I can play LR only they basically count as an addition to the main army and will be played as such. No need to see them as allies (although they technically are).

Will definitely try the TLAC with 3 heavy bolters for mass infantry killing. Sounds like fun times!

 

Another thing that came to mind is a Techpriest inside of a Trojan. Fo 80 or so point you get preferred enemy and repairs on those tanks.

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I'm not sure you should be spearheading with tanks, far too close to those kraks and meltas (and worse). Better to have your Wolves do what they do best and have the Russes trundling a bit behind them so they can offer mutual support.

 

I'd give some flyers some more thought, they're good (especially with current rules) and not against your Wolves methods, as they probably wouldn't care much what their allies get up to! If you'd rather spend the points on more tanks then I don't think anyone will hold that against you :P

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I don't have much to add to what's already been suggested. But for my money, if you want aggressive Guard, I think Hellhounds and variants are the way to go. Much faster moving than Russes but still have decent armour (13/12/10). They're also unexpected since few use the due to stacking the FA slot with Valkyries/Vendettas.

 

I've had some success with Guard in close combat. Again, unexpected , but be prepared to lose lots of troops. IG priest is overpriced and kind of sucks. Sisters of Battle/Inq priest is pure hold though. Maybe consider the Inquisitorial acolyte angle rather than strict IG?

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Slight typo there, Hellhounds et al have 12/12/10. I should be surprised by people not expecting Hellhounds but given the online hobby's propensity towards "the hive mind" it's not hard to believe. Hellhounds and Banewolfs (Banewolves?) are bloody murder and I love them, so this suits me even if I am disappointed by it.

It's kind of like an internet wide game of rock-paper-scissors. If everyone is convinced that rock is best then all it takes is someone to bring some paper... tongue.png

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How about this for a IG assault force?

Col. Straken and CCS with 3x melta, and 2 bodyguards 225

Priest w/ eviscerator(attached to infantry blob) 60

Infantry platoon

PCS (walking) 30

1 infantry sqd. Commissar(power sword,plasma pistol), Power axe, plasma pistol, and flamer.130

2 infantry sqd. Power axe, plasma pistol, and flamer. 75

3 infantry sqd. Power axe, plasma pistol, and flamer. 75

Stormlord. 500

1095

 

The storm lord can transport 40. 20 troops can shoot off the top. the mega bolter can chew through MEq and MCs. It counts as open topped for embarking/disembarking only. Av 14/13/12 9hps its a beast.

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