Abaddon vs Sigismund

[Greyall]

It's not surprising, it's just incredibly disturbing when you think these guys conquered most of the galaxy and have billions of lives in their hands. How does an almost child-soldier with 10.000 years of chaotic whispers in his head deal with all the pressure Balthamal mentioned?

 

All the more reason for him to emulate his father, it's instinctive.

[A D-B]

It's not surprising, it's just incredibly disturbing when you think these guys conquered most of the galaxy and have billions of lives in their hands. How does an almost child-soldier with 10.000 years of chaotic whispers in his head deal with all the pressure Balthamal mentioned?

 

All the more reason for him to emulate his father, it's instinctive.

 

Of all his motivations, instinctive and otherwise, emulating Horus is far, far down on the list. Abaddon doesn't emulate Horus much, despite a similar ambition. Horus was an Imperial general. Abaddon is a tribal warlord - he's Alexander or Genghis Khan. Horus never had to work for anything - he was instantly in charge of half the Imperium's army from the moment he decided to play on the Red Team. Abaddon had to build his forces from the ground up, while living in Hell. Horus had to conquer half of the galaxy on the way to Terra, after knocking out a huge percentage of its best defenders in a surprise attack. Abaddon is trapped in Hell, needing to incrementally fight his way out through an Imperium that knows he's coming and has erected the ultimate fortress to keep him trapped there. Horus knew next to nothing of Chaos, Abaddon knows it better than any other living being. Horus was a dupe of the Ruinous Powers. Abaddon is the Chosen of Chaos, beseeched by them and praised by them, yet unwilling to bow before them. Horus's story is a tragedy. Abaddon's story, not so much. The Rebellion failed. The Long War won't.

 

I like the internal conflict of him finding his own path, obviously. It's a major deal in the series's appeal for me. But Abaddon's main thrust is that he's not like Horus, and has learned from his father's mistakes. That's why Abaddon is a threat. Getting away from the popular perception of him as Horus Lite is absolutely key to a successful and true characterisation. It's all of his differences that make him dangerous. 

[depthcharge12]

Dammit ADB

 

 

Why do you make Abaddon sound so cool now?

[A D-B]

Dammit ADB

 

 

Why do you make Abaddon sound so cool now?

 

Because his storyline is breathtaking and rad.

 

Not better than Horus's story. Just different. A tragic fall can be just as interesting as a difficult rise, so at no point am I insulting Horus's storyline by calling it what it is. Horus's deception and loss is the most interesting and emotional thing about his tale. I don't think he sucks as a character or is some great and laughable loser because of it. But I'm not going to cushion the blows, either. Abaddon is the Chosen of Chaos, with the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, prophecised to bring about the doom of Mankind. That's big juju.

[Marshal Rohr]

Was he always meant to be that though? Or did he earn it?

[A D-B]

Was he always meant to be that though? Or did he earn it?

 

Well, indeed. 

[Wade Garrett]

I may be way off base here, but I always thought Abaddon's story was a tragedy in its own right.

 

When I read the Glorious Abaddon Colourpiece ADB put up several months ago, the thing that jumped out at me was that for all his vision, all his power, Abaddon can't win.

 

The very forces that empower his hordes and make the Long War possible have a vested interest in ensuring it never truly succeeds.

 

And that part at the end, where it talks about Abaddon sitting by himself after infighting between his forces has snatched defeat from the jaws of victory yet again, wondering if he's worthy, and then the answer comes back, growing louder with every beat of his twin hearts. Yes. Yes, one day, it will all be yours. And so the Long War continues...

 

I read that as Abaddon being as trapped in his own cycle as the Emperor on his throne, as any Daemon Primarch howling its madness in the depths of the Warp.

 

But that's just my take on it.

[Vesper]

I've always found the heroes like Ulysses more fascinating that the "chosen one" kind, who is simply accomplishing the fate he had from birth; Ulysses rocks because of his praxis, of what he does, what he choses to achieve and how he does things. I hope Abaddon isn't just the guy that was supposed to be the big bad from the start and that he really had to work for it.

Because that's the main difference between Ulysses and Harry Potter. And I'd rather Abaddon follow some kind of odysseus, like the former.

[A D-B]

I may be way off base here, but I always thought Abaddon's story was a tragedy in its own right.

 

When I read the Glorious Abaddon Colourpiece ADB put up several months ago, the thing that jumped out at me was that for all his vision, all his power, Abaddon can't win.

 

The very forces that empower his hordes and make the Long War possible have a vested interest in ensuring it never truly succeeds.

 

And that part at the end, where it talks about Abaddon sitting by himself after infighting between his forces has snatched defeat from the jaws of victory yet again, wondering if he's worthy, and then the answer comes back, growing louder with every beat of his twin hearts. Yes. Yes, one day, it will all be yours. And so the Long War continues...

 

I read that as Abaddon being as trapped in his own cycle as the Emperor on his throne, as any Daemon Primarch howling its madness in the depths of the Warp.

 

But that's just my take on it.

 

Mine, too (as me posting that indicated) but there's the trope that ultimately the Imperium will lose - 40K isn't about Mankind making it to the end zone for the Happy Times - and all signs point to Abaddon being the one to bring about the Age of Ultimate Murderingness.

 

Now, we know the setting will never reach that point, because it's a setting and not a metaplot storyline. But it's about treading the line between the likely inevitability of the setting and the fact that Chaos ultimately screws itself over. I'm not saying Abaddon's guaranteed to win, just that the setting lays it out as extremely likely. But it's basically irrelevant, as we'll never see it anyway. His victory would be the least interesting thing about him. The journey is the thing, as is the spiritual deadlock. 

 

This is one of those glorious instances where, because of the scale of the subject matter, you can literally take it any way you want, having your cake and eating it.

[Aegnor]

Getting away from the popular perception of him as Horus Lite is absolutely key to a successful and true characterisation. It's all of his differences that make him dangerous.

This is such a perfect explanation. I didn't even realise until just now when I read the above quote how much "Horus-lite" has always been how I've seen Abbadon, and how much this was at the root of me previously seeing him as uninteresting.

 

When you first posted about how you saw Abbadon, that blew my mind a bit in terms of how I understood this part of the setting. The snippet I've quoted above has completed that mind-blowing process. It's also moved this series even more firmly to the top of my "keenly anticipated" list and is probably going to inspire me to go buy an Abbadon miniature this weekend.

 

Truly Aaron, even if for some reason you never do these books, thanks for what you've posted on this issue in the last few months.

 

(PS - there are no acceptable reasons for. You to not do these books! :) I will buy the sweet living :cuss out of them and read them to pieces.)

[Greyall]

About Abaddon living in Hell, his unwillingness in being a pawn of the Four and Chaos perpetual cycle of self-destruction Wade mentioned: will you be dealing with that or will Abaddon's "hardships" come solely from rival Chaos Marines?

 

Example: An attack from a certain god's armies on Abaddon's forces disrupting the Warmaster's efforts for no apparent reason (though one can find reasons in each of the Gods' central emotion).

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

 

I may be way off base here, but I always thought Abaddon's story was a tragedy in its own right.

 

When I read the Glorious Abaddon Colourpiece ADB put up several months ago, the thing that jumped out at me was that for all his vision, all his power, Abaddon can't win.

 

The very forces that empower his hordes and make the Long War possible have a vested interest in ensuring it never truly succeeds.

 

And that part at the end, where it talks about Abaddon sitting by himself after infighting between his forces has snatched defeat from the jaws of victory yet again, wondering if he's worthy, and then the answer comes back, growing louder with every beat of his twin hearts. Yes. Yes, one day, it will all be yours. And so the Long War continues...

 

I read that as Abaddon being as trapped in his own cycle as the Emperor on his throne, as any Daemon Primarch howling its madness in the depths of the Warp.

 

But that's just my take on it.

Mine, too (as me posting that indicated) but there's the trope that ultimately the Imperium will lose - 40K isn't about Mankind making it to the end zone for the Happy Times - and all signs point to Abaddon being the one to bring about the Age of Ultimate Murderingness.

 

Now, we know the setting will never reach that point, because it's a setting and not a metaplot storyline. But it's about treading the line between the likely inevitability of the setting and the fact that Chaos ultimately screws itself over. I'm not saying Abaddon's guaranteed to win, just that the setting lays it out as extremely likely. But it's basically irrelevant, as we'll never see it anyway. His victory would be the least interesting thing about him. The journey is the thing, as is the spiritual deadlock.

 

This is one of those glorious instances where, because of the scale of the subject matter, you can literally take it any way you want, having your cake and eating it.

Agreed.

 

I also want to say that's one of the reasons I'm psyched about the Black Legion series, Abaddon as "Generic Evil Lord Evilton wot lounges on his Evil Throne plotting Evil" wouldn't be very interesting to read about.

 

Abaddon as "within fell clutch of circumstance, I have not wept, nor cried aloud. Beneath the bludgeoning of fate, my head is bloody, but unbowed", that I can sink my teeth into.

[Balthamal]

See if things like this were included in the Black Legion supplement then it would be worth a hell of a lot more than just taking a 4th heldrake

[awfulawful]

 

Dammit ADB

 

 

Why do you make Abaddon sound so cool now?

 

Because his storyline is breathtaking and rad.

 

Not better than Horus's story. Just different. A tragic fall can be just as interesting as a difficult rise, so at no point am I insulting Horus's storyline by calling it what it is. Horus's deception and loss is the most interesting and emotional thing about his tale. I don't think he sucks as a character or is some great and laughable loser because of it. But I'm not going to cushion the blows, either. Abaddon is the Chosen of Chaos, with the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, prophecised to bring about the doom of Mankind. That's big juju.

The last time I was this excited about a trilogy that would fill in the backstory for bad guy feared by an entire galaxy, I had my heart broken.  I swear, if you make one mention of midi-chlorians, I will fill the Internet with my impotent nerd-rage.

[Augustus]

I feel that the first time someone claimed Abaddon was the true Warmaster he would behead the guy. "How dare you associate me with // that// failure!" I am blah blah blah

 

Great characterization so far! Thanks for engaging us with it!

[karden00]

Lets not forget a crucial point here when considering Sigismund at Terra: even if he fought in over twenty duels, no loyalist, probably especially Sigismund, would have considered terra an honourable battlefield.

Did they respect their opponents as possessed of a very threatening martial prowess? Absolutely. But did they respect them as honourable? As opponents worthy of being honored by an honourable system? I can't see it, myself.

These are traitors. They broke their oaths, killed fellow Astartes, mean to kill every last IF, BA, and WS on terra, including their primarchs. And oh yeah, they want the Emperor dead.

On top of that, a huge portion of them wouldn't even look like the legion brothers they once knew. Many of them would have been possessed, or at least warp-touched.

This is the context of the siege. Does someone like Sigismund, a guy known for righteous zeal, who's boys would later be known to really kinda hate heretics with a passion, sound like someone who would be tempered in combat by a code of honor against foes such as these? Much more likely I think he would be violently offended by the mere notion of giving these traitors an honourable fight or death. He would happily lop someone's head off, unsuspecting from behind. I hope we see that the duty and drive to protect the imperium, and the emperor himself, far outweighs the urge for noble combat. The loyalists know what's at stake here. Lets hope the loyalists adopt a kill at all costs mentality. By this point if they are handicapped by a cliché urge to fight nobly, only to have such a sentiment be exploited as a great weakness, it will reek of odious moustache twirling.

Brothers of the B&C, I submit to you that there may indeed have been a time and place for honourable combat amongst Astartes, but the siege of Terra  was not it.

[Kol Saresk]

"Sometimes, what separates you from your enemies, are the lines you will not cross."

[Elenmar]

I'd agree with Kol, Sigismund already took slight to his honor as a knight when he deceived his noble father.  I do not believe that a warrior of such pride as Sigismund would let anything threaten his ideals as a warrior ever again, even in the face of such darkness.  In the siege of Terra I believe that Sigismund wanted to be seen by all warriors of chaos and have them tremble before his might and skill.  He wanted to rally the defenders as a paragon of imperial honor and prowess. 

[Wade Garrett]

There's also the issue that if you've spent thousands upon thousands of hours training to fight a certain way, under pressure that's the way you're going to fight.

 

Sigismund suddenly ninjagibbing people like Sharrowkyn the Raven Ninja because HE'S SO ANGRY would be...it's the kind of bad that crosses into "so bad it's good", then plunges past it into "so bad I can literally feel it sapping years off my life."

[lilMAC25]

I KNOW. I KNOW THE ANSWER.

 

But then, I cheated. I wrote the answer a few months ago.

 

It may still get changed in editing, mind you.

sonofabisch! Rub it in!

 

Can't wait to read it!

[lilMAC25]

 

 

Potentially related question. Do we know how Sigismund died?

I DO I DO PICK ME.

 

 

 

I KNOW. I KNOW THE ANSWER.

 

But then, I cheated. I wrote the answer a few months ago.

 

It may still get changed in editing, mind you.

I hope that means a clear winner and not a well writen draw...

Teehee. Touche', dearest Stonerhino.

doublesonofabisch!

[lilMAC25]

 

 

Am I the only one not pissed about this? I think it's great. I'm hoping we get an A D B duel dialogue about the black Templars inheriting the great crusade and Abaddon shoving his sword through his heart while telling him the Great Crusade is over.

That would be the obvious motif to play out between them, wouldn't it? (Especially with how much I made the Eternal Crusade a keystone of how my Templars think, in Helsreach). And yet, sometimes the obvious choice is the awesomest.

 

Caps Lock joking from earlier aside, no, I think there's only one voice in this thread "pissed about this", and in fairness to WoT, he's setting up an unsustainable position quoting Black Library's joke about how a previous employee didn't like the Imperial Fists. (That previous employee was a short story editor, by the by, and he "didn't like them" to the extent that he didn't like yellow very much, and it became a joke.) It's times like this that you could kinda cringe about the fan reaction over everything, because there'll always be one or two where the answer's unacceptable no matter what it is. I mean, Sigismund has to die at some point. That's not being a meanie to the Fists or the Templars. If Chaos - the faction that routinely loses even in books about Chaos Marines - are somehow unfair for landing the killing blow, let alone that it's delivered by the actual Antichrist of the 40K setting, which is about as glorious a death as a Space Marine can get... Or if the fact Sigismund dies at all is untenable, I mean... what hope do you have?

 

It comes down to trusting in your knowledge of the setting and telling what you think is a good story. Did Homer hate Hector because Hector dies and Troy loses in the Iliad? You can take this stuff way too far.

 

In this case, at the last BL Weekender on one of the Heresy panels, it was asked what happened in the First Black Crusade, seeing as Cadia wasn't reinforced by that point. And I replied that I liked the idea of the Imperium victorious after the Scouring, committing the Nine Legions to the role of myth and legend while the Legions were trapped in the purgatory of the Eye. So when the newly formed Black Legion returns at the vanguard of the Armies of the Damned, they're almost entirely unopposed. Almost. "There's this ancient knight-king, leaning on his sword as he sits on his throne, a thousand years old but too proud and dutiful to die. And when the Black Legion break out of the Eye, the Black Templars are waiting for them." Hugely outnumbered: the only ones that insisted the Imperium's sins would come home to roost, the only Chapter to face humanity's sins coming back to haunt the species. As the Crusade unfolds, a lot of the Imperium joins in. But Sigismund was there first, waiting for Abaddon. The one duel he never got to fight on Terra.

 

And then I turned to my editor and said "That'll be Book Two."

 

But maybe WoT will catch a break and it'll all change. I like the idea and there's no finer swansong for one of the greatest Imperial heroes, though I change my mind as much as anyone else and may decide he gets food poisoning or something.

i just [COC]ed

[Cactus]

There's also the issue that if you've spent thousands upon thousands of hours training to fight a certain way, under pressure that's the way you're going to fight.

 

Sigismund suddenly ninjagibbing people like Sharrowkyn the Raven Ninja because HE'S SO ANGRY would be...it's the kind of bad that crosses into "so bad it's good", then plunges past it into "so bad I can literally feel it sapping years off my life."

 

Has Sigismund spent those thousands of hours training to win duels, or to win wars?

 

"Ninjagibbing" is, I think, an exaggeration of what karden00's saying. Sigismund isn't going to ask for, or demand, single combat during the siege. He's going to see a traitor and kill him before moving on to the next, and the next, and the next. Having said that, the internal conflict between his sense of honour and his duty to defend Terra is the stuff great drama is made of and I hope it's explored when the time comes.

[Elenmar]

 

 

Has Sigismund spent those thousands of hours training to win duels, or to win wars?

 

 

I am of the opinion that he has spent thousands of hours on both.  His time with the world eaters was most assuredly not his only time spent mastering the art of dueling and probably not his last.  As for mastering the art of war, he is was First Captain of the Imperial Fists and as such fought in many campaigns.  He spent much time with his father as his most trusted warrior and so probably spent many a day learning from him of the ways best to defeat the Emperor's enemies.

[Marshal Rohr]

Space marines don't need to study like normal people. They have that eidetic memory thing where they read, learn, and assimilate information faster than regular humans.