Kol Saresk Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Except that what Wade is pointing out, you wouldn't do your best in a combat with a code of ethics and conduct. That code is meant to keep you from doing your best as it only lets you fight a certain way. You are allowed to do certain things but not allowed others. Figuratively, it is like fighting with one hand behind your back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Or the fact that you "best" and fighting to the very last resort are not entirely the same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Thanks for the clarification. When Horus killed the Warboss, he found that only Abaddon had survived the battle against its lieutenants and guards, who were all dead. Maybe it's my latent paranoia but this makes Abaddon seem very shifty. Are we sure his real name isn't Alpharius? Horus [turning from the warlord's corpse]: "The orks slew the First Company? All of them?" Abaddon [wiping blood from his blade]: "All of them. I'm lucky to have survived myself." Considering this was a group of Orks that almost killed the Emperor(and most likely his Custodes bodyguards) until Horus' untimely arrival, why would it be a surprise they could overpower Astartes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fission Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 If I don't make a mistake : the Ullanor ultimate fight against the Big Boss is described in "the Wolf of Ashes". As I remind Horus and Abby are not the only survivors , look at Sejanus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshal seanisi Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Yes I'm sure all of you Traitor fanboy's are correct! The fact that two of the best fighters in all the legions went at it for 30 hours were in fact fighting with one hand tied behind their collective backs. And YES the Dirty fighter is better then the guy that displays honor toward his brothers, and when it comes to warfare and a real battle, that one of the best fighters in all the legions who slays countless Champions at the battle of Terra, doesn't know how to fight.. Yep makes perfect sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Thanks for the clarification. When Horus killed the Warboss, he found that only Abaddon had survived the battle against its lieutenants and guards, who were all dead. Maybe it's my latent paranoia but this makes Abaddon seem very shifty. Are we sure his real name isn't Alpharius? Horus [turning from the warlord's corpse]: "The orks slew the First Company? All of them?" Abaddon [wiping blood from his blade]: "All of them. I'm lucky to have survived myself." Considering this was a group of Orks that almost killed the Emperor(and most likely his Custodes bodyguards) until Horus' untimely arrival, why would it be a surprise they could overpower Astartes? That was at Gorro, not Ullanor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Sevatar vs Sigismund can be easily compared to Loken vs Lucius, yeah the former won the fight, but the latter won the duel/matchup by disqualification. In both match ups certain ground rules are established along with win/lose scenarios, and although it may go unspoken the breaking of those rules barriers leads to disqualification and the other party winning by default; if the sons of Horus truly believed in doing everything they could to win, they would not have disqualified themselves in the first place (I'm saying Lucius totally head butted that fist like Uncle Lion'El taught him in order to win by technicality). Be it in boxing ring or at the chessboard, if its not war it has rules and the breaking of those rules leads to quantifiable winners and losers; be it a headbutt or the crash of a checkered board across the skull, it doesn't matter if the other guy is a drooling wreck, you lose by breaking the rules. Putting that into context, I'm expecting Abaddon the then-Warmaster to simply loosen up Sigismund with a volley from his personal guard and then finish him, being not only a whatever-it-takes-to-win persona but also a Warmaster, a title which brings boons better than first pick in the Legion's armoury. I reckon Abaddon will go through with what Russ was tempted to do against Angron at the Night of the Wolf, and by my estimate that writing would reverberate nicely among the fan base for a few years and nicely tie the knot on Siggie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 The Siege is actually 192-ish days long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Actually there were no agreed upon rules in the fight between Loken and Lucius. Lucius just believed those rules were already implied and as such, lost when Loken didn't follow the same rules Lucius was. But in the case of Sevatar and Sigismund, the rules were agreed upon and as such, were expected to be obeyed. And the fight lasted as long as it did because as long as both were obeying the rules, there would be no winner. That's why Sigismund laughed when he was headbutted. Because Sevatar would rather break the rules of engagement than "not win". And even though he wouldn't be considered a winner according to the rules of engagement, he nonetheless won the fight. How did we get on Sevatar and Sigismund? I mean, I know I'd say it'd be cool if Abaddon sicked Sevatar on Sigismund but how did we get all the way over here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Let me just leave this here, because droool... http://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/BL/blog/2014/Feb/preview-7.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Let me just leave this here, because droool... http://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/BL/blog/2014/Feb/preview-7.jpg In a word: YES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 As far as Siggy vs Sev goes: In my opinion, neither guy was taking it seriously. We may infer this because when the Black Knight or the Prince of Crows take a fight seriously, people die. Hence, that scene has as much to do with "OMG Sigismund would totes pwn Sevatar" or "LOL Sevatar FTW" as if ADB had written they played badminton for thirty hours tied at one-one, and then Sevatar threw his racquet at the Templar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshal seanisi Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Wade as so many people do, mentioned the battle, and is under the impression that Sigismund is some kind of boy scout. When in fact it has been stated on more than one occasion that he is "ill tempered" and hot headed. And for anyone who still thinks that if you fight "dirty" that you will win against someone who doesn't. I refer you to Holyfield VS Tyson, Tyson became frustrated and decided to have Evander's ear for dinner! He still got his whooped! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Counterexample, from the UFC: Wes Simms deciding to break a Frank Mir armlock attempt by stomping on Mir's head like a housewife menaced by a giant hairy cockroach (which is illegal under the U.S. unified rules of mixed martial arts). Mir won the fight by DQ, but darn if it didn't break the hold and scramble Frank's brains pretty good to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshal seanisi Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Hahahahahah YES awesome example!! I relent...Totally forgot about that fight. I remember LMAO when I saw Simms do that!!! Not that I condone that kind of action mind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 No worries. My opinion is that when two opponents are nigh equal, cheating can give one or the other the edge. But if the only hope you have is cheating...let me put it this way. You could let me bite, throw low blows, and eye gouge, but someone like Tito Ortiz would whip me like the proverbial red headed stepchild eleven times out of five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 "Win if you can, lose if you must. But ALWAYS cheat." -J.Ventura Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Quick note... based on wolf of ash and fire... abaddon isnt involved in the fight vs the warboss... I may be miasremembering it but pretty sure its Horus and Big E, with serjanus showing up as its all over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Those are different fights. The one that Abaddon and the Justaerin participate in is the final battle of Ullanor. The battle from Wolf of Ash and Fire was on Gorro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Who says Sigismund wouldn't fight dirty in a fight to the death?? He's maybe honourable but not stupid, if he has to cheat to take a guy like let's say Sevatar during the siege, it wouldn't surprise me. Loken is honourable yet he punched Lucius in the face because it was a pragmatic way to win. I think Sigismund would do the same if there's necessity. Obviously in a contest like the WE's gladiatorial pits he would not, but when something important is in play who cares about doing it by the rules?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Who says Sigismund wouldn't fight dirty in a fight to the death?? He's maybe honourable but not stupid, if he has to cheat to take a guy like let's say Sevatar during the siege, it wouldn't surprise me. Loken is honourable yet he punched Lucius in the face because it was a pragmatic way to win. I think Sigismund would do the same if there's necessity. Obviously in a contest like the WE's gladiatorial pits he would not, but when something important is in play who cares about doing it by the rules??I don't recall anyone saying Sigismund wouldn't fight dirty. If they did, then I missed it. But IIRC, Sigismund is said to fight in one on one duels. Duels usually happen according to a code of fighting. As an honorable warrior, Sigismund would be bound to that Code of Ethics. Although I must point out again, that the major difference between Loken vs Lucius and Sevatar vs Sigismund is that Lucius and Loken did not agree to a set of rules; Lucius just assumed that Loken would be following his[Lucius] rules in the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I don't know much about sparring and people who still use live steel today, but I can imagine in a duel you would never go 100% because that would mean killing and dismembering blows not until the other yields Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Who says Sigismund wouldn't fight dirty in a fight to the death?? He's maybe honourable but not stupid, if he has to cheat to take a guy like let's say Sevatar during the siege, it wouldn't surprise me. Loken is honourable yet he punched Lucius in the face because it was a pragmatic way to win. I think Sigismund would do the same if there's necessity. Obviously in a contest like the WE's gladiatorial pits he would not, but when something important is in play who cares about doing it by the rules??I don't recall anyone saying Sigismund wouldn't fight dirty. If they did, then I missed it. But IIRC, Sigismund is said to fight in one on one duels. Duels usually happen according to a code of fighting. As an honorable warrior, Sigismund would be bound to that Code of Ethics. Although I must point out again, that the major difference between Loken vs Lucius and Sevatar vs Sigismund is that Lucius and Loken did not agree to a set of rules; Lucius just assumed that Loken would be following his[Lucius] rules in the fight. I just wanted to clarify that even when Sigismund didn't fight dirty in that duel it doesn't mean he isn't a dirty fighting kind of guy in real combat, because we haven't seen it yet. So the discussion about "X wins against Y in a fight because X fought dirty" doesn't proof anything about the fighting skills of said fighters, because in this case Sigismund could use the same trick in a real combat. Some people see Sigismund as the honourable kind of guy, who fights by the rules, and it may be wrongly extrapolated to any other war/fight scenario when we actually don't know if he's as trickery as Sevatar outside the fighting pits, without rules. And yes, Lucius always think that everybody follow his rules in any fight *cof Sharrowkyn *cof *cof, poor poor Lucius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshal seanisi Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 For me, It's not even a matter of if Sigsmund would fight "dirty" or not. Picture if you will, I don't know, let's use the example of maybe a brother in law. A guy who is married to your sister and they have kids. Great guy, you've known him for years, maybe just a bit rough around the edges but hey you like him. You guy's play golf, you spar against each other at the same Jiu Jitsu camp and you guy's are always even. Sometimes he gets a little cheap shot in here or there but you take it in stride. Then one day you get a phone call and your sis is in the hospital because they guy who you thought was your brother, turns out to be a scumbag who has been beating your sister and your niece or nephew. Now.....when you see this guy and get the chance to put your hands on him!!! I hate using such a terrible scenario but imagine how these loyalist felt. Imagine the rage Sigismund must have felt while the Siege of Terra was happening, and then picture him slaying countless Chaos Champions.. I for one don't picture him as a Noble play by the rules kind of warrior in that setting do any of you?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I just can't see Sigismund going into a rage like that. This is purely personal opinion, and the Emperor knows the 40k Black Templars seem to be much more on the "HERESY BAD! TEMPLARS SMASH!" side of the scales, but I picture Sigismund at the Siege as this perfectly economical engine of destruction, with not one iota of motion wasted. No wild angry hacking, no flamboyant blade twirling, just minimum effort, maximum results CHOP that's another dead traitor, who's next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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