Abaddon vs Sigismund

[lilMAC25]

 

 

 

 

 

Why do you do this to us? In the names of the black gods why??

 

As a side note, can we take it that those 9 are the Ezekarion?

It seems so. Also their number suggests that there will be one from each legion.

I'm pretty sure he stated before that one was a Fallen Dark Angel which would rule that out. It's been confirmed Khayon is a Thousand Son and I doubt very much there'll be two characters called Falkus so you have Sons of Horus accounted for too. As for the rest, who knows. I think it would be cool if there were a couple from loyalist Legions, just for kicks. Damn we need this book out already

They're some of the Ezekarion. The first book is really just the first step - it's a long-running series, so more warriors join the Ezekarion over the course of the novels. They're a cross between Abaddon's highest-ranking warlords, the lords of the Black Legion, his best warriors, his personal squad, and the leaders of individual fleets and armies, depending on who's doing what at which point in time. It's a fluid process. The mark of who is actually one of the Ezekarion is that they're the only warriors who call the Warmaster by his first name, and their words are protected by Legion law: they can't be punished for speaking their minds to Abaddon. Think of Alexander the Great's Companions. Some Companions led his infantry regiments, others were in his personal guard, the Companion Cavalry. All were essentially in his inner circle, no matter their rank.

 

The Talon of Horus is about the first of the Ezekarion coming together in the search for Abaddon - and the destruction of Horus's clone. It's about the journey and events that make them all create the Black Legion, with Abaddon finally choosing to wield the Talon of Horus. The second book will be the newborn Black Legion curbstomping other warbands, and the declaration of the First Black Crusade.

 

Like I said, the Abaddon/Sigismund mention is a throwaway couple of paragraphs in The Talon of Horus. The event itself, if I run with it, will be in the next book, The Black Legion.

I'm utterly spent.

[Wade Garrett]

Has Sigismund spent those thousands of hours training to win duels, or to win wars?

*snip*

Sigismund isn't going to ask for, or demand, single combat during the siege.

Well, if the Black Templar chapter tactics have any relation to how their founder handled his business...

 

And I think "ninjagibbing" is not an unfair synonym for "lop their unsuspecting heads off from behind". And neither of them are things we'll see from the Legion of Rogal "Camoflage is the color of cowardice" Dorn.

[DarKnight]

Great debate brothers, I think we should consider the mechanics of how one-on-one combat works in the 31st Millennium though, specifically at the siege of Terra. The traitors pretty much know who's going to be present (the actual three Legions might be retconned but the IFs are definitely there) after Dorn the first person you think of as an Imperial Fist is Sigismund. Every traitor Captain looking to make their name is going to be looking for him on the walls of the palace. Another aspect, you're leading your squad deeper into the palace and your guys get butchered by a squad of golden armored Astartes, led by a knight in a Templar Cross'ed tabard which might not lend itself to idealized one on one duels. Can't always be him just standing on a battlement yelling at the foe to come get him, foes are going to want to put his helm on their armor and have a story to tell. Least that's the way I see it.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I just read the entire 11 pages of this post, and I just want to say, as a Wolf for the last 14 years, and a Raven for the last 6 years:

 

A D-B, you make Traitors awesome. I cannot wait to see your words on Abaddon, to which we can then hopefully banish "Fail-baddon" and have him accepted as the walking nightmare he is.

 

WLK

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Admitedly I've not read the last 6 pages of this descussion so apologies if I'm going over old ground.

Great debate brothers, I think we should consider the mechanics of how one-on-one combat works in the 31st Millennium though, specifically at the siege of Terra. The traitors pretty much know who's going to be present (the actual three Legions might be retconned but the IFs are definitely there) after Dorn the first person you think of as an Imperial Fist is Sigismund. Every traitor Captain looking to make their name is going to be looking for him on the walls of the palace. Another aspect, you're leading your squad deeper into the palace and your guys get butchered by a squad of golden armored Astartes, led by a knight in a Templar Cross'ed tabard which might not lend itself to idealized one on one duels. Can't always be him just standing on a battlement yelling at the foe to come get him, foes are going to want to put his helm on their armor and have a story to tell. Least that's the way I see it.

 

A fair point but what you need to take into account is that Sigismund is not really going to be behaving as a commander during the Siege. The job of the Emperor's Champion is literally to seek and destroy enemy leaders. I agree that can't just be him atop the battlements chanting 'come and 'av a go if you think your 'ard enough' but at the same time he isn't going to let himself be bogged down in combat. It's more than likely he will withdraw from some of the more equal battles in favour of going after enemy leaders. To be fair the fact traitors want to take his head mean's he is going to find himself in more duels. I mean the only Legion who think there is honour in stabbing an enemy in the back are the Alpha Legion and, as far as I know, they have nobody in their ranks worthy of Sigismund's blade. An enemy champion is going to want to fight him one on one just so he can claim the victory is his. Think on it this way would you really want to be the marine who ran into and desturbed a fight between Khârn and Sigismund. Even if you killed the Betrayer or the Black Knight (depending on the marines allegiance) the other is just as likely to kill you damaging their honour.

 

Wouldn't it be great if it just descended into a huge battle royal between First Captains, Champions, and Equirries? Sigismund, Amit, Raldoran, Pollux and Valdor vs Abbadon, Little Horus, Khârn, Lucius and Arhiman.

[Vesper]

 

Wouldn't it be great if it just descended into a huge battle royal

between First Captains, Champions, and Equirries? Sigismund, Amit,

Raldoran, Pollux and Valdor vs Abbadon, Little Horus, Khârn, Lucius and

Arhiman.

That'd be meh. That would rip every personnal involvment out of that fight. I'd rather have characters clash in a non lazy way, honestly.

 

And on the Alpha Legion subject, they aren't supposed to be at Terra. Or are they ? And on which side ? *head explodes*

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Yeah from a written perspective it wouldn't be the best I'm just picturing it in my head to be fair.

 

Yeah maybe their skulking in the shadows but someone else can have their fun rooting them out.

[Wade Garrett]

I mean the only Legion who think there is honour in stabbing an enemy in the back are the Alpha Legion...

The Night Lords, Raven Guard, and White Scars would probably disagree with this assessment.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

The Night Lords just like stabbing the area is unimportant, Lightening raids still mean you confront your enemy head on even if you ambush them there is still a chance to cross swords and yes the Raven's use stealth but they still fight their enemies face to face not pretend to be them then attack while their sleeping. Don't get me wrong spy's and assassins are invaulable weapons but they are not honourable warriors. Just my oppinion don't wish to pull the topic off focus.

 

1 vs 1 my money is still on Sigismund. If we are talking about leading a battle Abaddon has the edge. Although personally I would be more eager to read a fight between Abaddon and Valdor.

[Vesper]

I have to say I'd love Valdor versus Abaddon being a thing. With Valdor being brutally beheaded, of course.

It's quite likely actually, we know Abaddon and the 1st company were roaming unstoppable in the Palace, killing everything and everyone.

[Kais Klip]

Admitedly I've not read the last 6 pages of this descussion so apologies if I'm going over old ground.

Great debate brothers, I think we should consider the mechanics of how one-on-one combat works in the 31st Millennium though, specifically at the siege of Terra. The traitors pretty much know who's going to be present (the actual three Legions might be retconned but the IFs are definitely there) after Dorn the first person you think of as an Imperial Fist is Sigismund. Every traitor Captain looking to make their name is going to be looking for him on the walls of the palace. Another aspect, you're leading your squad deeper into the palace and your guys get butchered by a squad of golden armored Astartes, led by a knight in a Templar Cross'ed tabard which might not lend itself to idealized one on one duels. Can't always be him just standing on a battlement yelling at the foe to come get him, foes are going to want to put his helm on their armor and have a story to tell. Least that's the way I see it.

 

A fair point but what you need to take into account is that Sigismund is not really going to be behaving as a commander during the Siege. The job of the Emperor's Champion is literally to seek and destroy enemy leaders. I agree that can't just be him atop the battlements chanting 'come and 'av a go if you think your 'ard enough' but at the same time he isn't going to let himself be bogged down in combat. It's more than likely he will withdraw from some of the more equal battles in favour of going after enemy leaders. To be fair the fact traitors want to take his head mean's he is going to find himself in more duels. I mean the only Legion who think there is honour in stabbing an enemy in the back are the Alpha Legion and, as far as I know, they have nobody in their ranks worthy of Sigismund's blade. An enemy champion is going to want to fight him one on one just so he can claim the victory is his. Think on it this way would you really want to be the marine who ran into and desturbed a fight between Khârn and Sigismund. Even if you killed the Betrayer or the Black Knight (depending on the marines allegiance) the other is just as likely to kill you damaging their honour.

 

Wouldn't it be great if it just descended into a huge battle royal between First Captains, Champions, and Equirries? Sigismund, Amit, Raldoran, Pollux and Valdor vs Abbadon, Little Horus, Khârn, Lucius and Arhiman.

 

I don’t have anything hard backing this up so give me a slap if you do (as I’m also being pedantic) but I see Astartes Champions having the same role as the champion heroes of greece and all that; showing the men a glorious example of valour and glory, be it picking off sergeants and other notable foes, or running first head into a breach (contrary to your suggestion). I would not see a champion “saving himself” for more practical matters like say a captain would, nor would I expect him to see anywhere far from the front line and the most gruelling of fighting. In terms of the legion, its the job of the seekers to concentrate on enemy leadership, and the job of the captain to reserve himself for a better overview of the battle (vs being “on the ground” fighting in the front lines, as it were). The champion’s job, more so the Emperor’s Champion, is to be a living banner of glory and to that extent be wherever the most glory is to be found (as opposed to the chaplain, who would be present wherever a morale uplift is required). 

 

Again, slam me down if you have read to the contrary, I’m just going off my personal sense here, as well as clambering to justify why my 360 point Emperor’s champion is leading the 20 man grunt squad in the charge against plasma spamming tactical supports. I know, I know, but glory. 

[Blindhamster]

Seeing as apparently Valdor was able to hold his own vs (and admittedly younger) Horus... I doubt it'd go well for anyone that fights Valdor... that being said, I hope to be pleasantly surprised!

[Wade Garrett]

I'm not arguing about the honor (or lack thereof) of spies, snipers, and saboteurs, merely stating that the Scars, Ravens and Lords all make use of such tactics.

 

Read Little Horus, where the Khan's men attempt to assassinate the Luna Wolves's officer cadre, or Angel Exterminatus, where a Raven Guard snipes several Traitors from concealment with a needle carbine.

[d3m01iti0n]

ADB, Im just going to leave a pile of cash in this thread.  You can grab it whenever you want.

[SwordBrother13]

Based upon the rules of both and the little bit of lore on the side paragraph for Sigismund, I'd say it's fair to assume that Sigismund would win. Other than the primarchs, he's definitely the killingest dude out there, and he's got pretty good defenses. If he had a storm shield he'd have near the best possible. Now, after Abaddon becomes the main Chaos dude that he is now, I think that would be a pretty well-matched fight. I, personally, think that Sigismund would still win and I try to be as unbiased as possible. As far as who should kill Sigismund, Abaddon or Khârn for sure. I would love for it to be, as someone earlier mentioned, that he takes them out with him, but that's my fanboyness coming out. Although....Khârn has come back from the dead before, so why not again? It'd be super cool if Sig was the dude that killed Khârn atop that pile of corpses he was found on at Terra. Then when they have a rematch, Sig kills him again, but now Khârn has the favor of the blood god and takes Sig down as well. Then AGAIN, I also got super stoked on that idea about him duelling Sevatar aboard a ship as it's sucked into the warp and lost forever.

 

Also, ADB, you're the best author ever. If anyone could do Sigismund's death justice, it'd be you. I mean after all, you did make the Black Templars High Chaplain into the most awesome Chaplain to have ever existed.

[Kais Klip]

Keep in mind though, chaos is a great equaliser, and you can bet the Four will be present during the assault on the palace. All Sigismund has on his side is his training/talent (one and the same). His gear, his courage and defensive advantage is all negated by those of the traitor counterparts.

All it'll take is a lone Sons of Horus line grunt, out of ammunition and his combat blade lodged in the helm of some World Eater madman, losing his footing amidst a pile of word bearer corpses as Sigismund smashes past him to murder his Sergeant. "Damn you, Sigismund." He'll spit after scrabbling up to his feet along with his hand gripped around the closest thing he could claw from the ground; a crooked dagger stinking of corruption.

And there's your chink.

Edit: I think you can guess that I'd like the Palace to be the end of many of our current champions and the begining of new ones; it really should be the pinnacle and defining moment of that Astartes generation . Forget systems and sectors; the names of slum streets and rubble hills as accolades should be titles worth of the most import at the end of it all. What wave they were in when the inner walls came down, what precinct they were grappling for when Sanguinius was holding the gate should be the questions the traitors and loyalists are all asking each other in the years past it, and the wedge that is driven between the legions and squads that were and weren't there.

[b1soul]

Seeing as apparently Valdor was able to hold his own vs (and admittedly younger) Horus

 

LOL no...no one is able to produce evidence of Valdor holding his own against Horus. I've asked for a quote on this on more than one site. No one ever delivers.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

Seeing as apparently Valdor was able to hold his own vs (and admittedly younger) Horus

LOL no...no one is able to produce evidence of Valdor holding his own against Horus. I've asked for a quote on this on more than one site. No one ever delivers.

I can't provide that either right now, but I remember where the idea comes from. When Horus was first found and being trained in the arts of war, Valdor was his training partner. That is the context around Valdor's victories in the training ring.

[Kol Saresk]

I thought its been established training ring=/=reality?

 

@Kais Klip: No! No more Sharrowkyns! Get thee behind me McNeill!

[Conn Eremon]

I hope it has been.

[Tenebris]

Abby is well good and alive in M41, so he either cheated, escaped or plain won every duel thrust upon him. He is a Chtonian warlord, the most impressive geneson of Horus, a ruthless warrior and perhaps the most influential space marine captain of all the Legiones Astartes. We speak of Abaddon folk, of the Primus inter Pares when comes to space marine commanders and lords. Short of a Primarch I doubt anything can so easily kill him. Remember, he was a match for the clones of Horus, he post Heresy he killed almost anything possible to kill, from greater daemons to ancient space marine commanders, so Sigismud, despite his inequivocabile martial might is far beneath the skill and the ferocity of Abaddon. 

 

Though his skill is only speculated, since we have little written on this account in the HH novels I suspect that you do not survive and prosper on Chtonia and in a legion like the Luna Wolves by being a whimp. To thrive in such environments you really need to be on top of the food chain, an apex predator who is not only mighty and ferocious, but incredibly cunning and smart too. 

 

In short the outcome of such a fight is never in doubt, Abaddon won or cheated and ran to fight another day on his terms. 

[Kol Saresk]

Weren't the clones like abortions? Cutting apart mewling beings that have no ability to defend themselves? Should that be counted as a fight? Its like saying the matter between Cyrion and the little girl in Void Stalker was a fight.

[Conn Eremon]

Weren't the clones like abortions? Cutting apart mewling beings that have no ability to defend themselves? Should that be counted as a fight? Its like saying the matter between Cyrion and the little girl in Void Stalker was a fight.

Some were described as such. But, they also had what was called the Prime Clone, which was killed by Abaddon personally. Hell, it might have been the only clone he killed.

 

It kind of leaves it open to interpretation if they were just spawn or not.

 

But then, Abaddon is sometimes seen as a clone of Horus. Maybe the Prime wasn't killed. Maybe he just stole the identity of his would-be killer.

[Kais Klip]

I thought its been established training ring=/=reality?

@Kais Klip: No! No more Sharrowkyns! Get thee behind me McNeill!

Oh no no no, more like our champions dying to the regular dregs a la Dorn, and our new champions coming to the fore by killing their dreg peers like our champions did to come to the fore. No sleeping beauties waking up to save the day as the galaxy is burning, just grunts thinking they've had enough of this ****.

 

Edit; come on, what happened to pissing away names to Phospex like on Istvaan? The God of Grimdark demands names, not numbers.

[Sevatar]

If it came to it, I think Valdor could beat any Space Marine. I hope FW make his rules awesome. I mean, they said his rules will be just below the Primarchs. So, on a table top perspective, he will, and, from his fluff, should slaughter champions.