Wade Garrett Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 "Everyone who kept their gene sire alive through the Siege of Terra, stand up!" -First Captain Sigismund addresses a gathering of the Adeptus Custodes during the Scouring. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3661673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Edit: I think you can guess that I'd like the Palace to be the end of many of our current champions and the begining of new ones; it really should be the pinnacle and defining moment of that Astartes generation . Forget systems and sectors; the names of slum streets and rubble hills as accolades should be titles worth of the most import at the end of it all. What wave they were in when the inner walls came down, what precinct they were grappling for when Sanguinius was holding the gate should be the questions the traitors and loyalists are all asking each other in the years past it, and the wedge that is driven between the legions and squads that were and weren't there. Now I really want to have the FW book with a detailed map of Terra and the Palace. I really do. If it came to it, I think Valdor could beat any Space Marine. I hopeFW make his rules awesome. I mean, they said his rules will be just below the Primarchs. So, on a table top perspective, he will, and, from his fluff, should slaughter champions. Unless he crosses the path of an unarmed World Eater. His only weakness... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3661678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 A detailed map of the palace would be absolutely insane. I can't tell from the books if the 'inner palace' is only Nepal, or the entirety of the Himalayas. It would be insanely cool if it is the whole mountain range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3661691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I think that pre heresy/during heresy Sigismund would have Abbadon.... Just After heresy I think (as much as it tastes like bile in my mouth to admit it) with the power of the dark gods abbadon would win..... just I think the most awesome end would be for Sigismund to die in a duel with abbadon aboard the eternal crusader/vengeful spirit with the Black Templars single handedly turning back (or at least halting) the first black crusade. They would have an epic duel where both of them would take horrendous wounds but eventually abbadon would win and then collapse having to be carried from the fray by his surviving bodyguard. The Templars would then go into RAGE mode because their lord had fallen and turn the tide of the battle. I really want to read this story, the death of Sigismund can only be epic, and ADB is a great author, if anyone can do this justice it will be him. ADB, if you do write this can you do us a favour though, can Sigismund cut off one of abbadons arms? you know that so many people would find that hilarious :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3661715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I'd prefer it if Sigismund's end remains a mystery. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3661756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I take issue with the claim Sigismund is the greatest warrior the Heresy era Imperium has (Nicodemus of the XIII, Amit & Raldoron of the IX, Bjorn of the VI, etc all say hi). As far as him vs Abaddon...generally, the smart money option is to bet on the guy wearing Terminator armor over the guy who isn't. What about if the guy who isnt in terminator armour is a ravenguard ninja marine, what then! On topic: I would rather Sigismund be an unstoppable force after getting his dressing down by Dorn. I'm pulling for the guy when he kills Khârn... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3661757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordBrother13 Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I agree. I have to say though, in regards to what Tenebris said, Abaddon was a bad dude, for sure. But at the time of the Heresy, judging by what evidence we have, Sigismund was badder. To me it seems as if it's obvious that Sig was better during the time of the Heresy. The only question is if Abaddon would win after becoming the champion of Chaos. Based, on the rules, I'd say that they're very evenly matched, but in the lore they may decide to make him better. I'd be okay with that. I mean, he is supposed to be the craziest guy out there short of the daemon primarchs currently. The palace is supposed to be the size of a continent, so I think it spans more than even the Himalayas. I agree with Sevatar about Valdoron. I definitely think he was better than everyone but the primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3661761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 The problem with the Himalayas is that they are so long and skinny. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3661840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Question to the people who are good at the crunch: Now that both Abaddon and Sigismund have 30k rules, how do they match up? Are they more or less even, or does Sigismund stomp ol' Abby into the mud? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3661871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted April 23, 2014 Author Share Posted April 23, 2014 Question to the people who are good at the crunch: Now that both Abaddon and Sigismund have 30k rules, how do they match up? Are they more or less even, or does Sigismund stomp ol' Abby into the mud? :D Sigismund roflstomped pre-heresy Abaddon but is handily dispatched by Post Heresy Abaddon. It's really annoying though because a lot of the Pre-Heresy characters who were considered good duelists are terrible in game and get murdered by a basic Praetor. Sigismund is the only exception. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3661873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain Angel Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 The First Marshal is exstreamly good, and could possibly beat even a primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3661880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordBrother13 Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Sevatar doesn't get easily murdered by a praetor does he? From what I've seen, he can kill almost anyone that's not a primarch before they have the chance to strike. To captain Angel, I have to say that I disagree with that if you're talking about in lore as well as crunch. I'd say it's extremely unlikely in crunch and would never happen in lore. Even Lorgar is too good. He beat down Anngrath. (Forgot where the apostrophes go in his name.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3661905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted April 23, 2014 Author Share Posted April 23, 2014 Sevatar doesn't get easily murdered by a praetor does he? From what I've seen, he can kill almost anyone that's not a primarch before they have the chance to strike. To captain Angel, I have to say that I disagree with that if you're talking about in lore as well as crunch. I'd say it's extremely unlikely in crunch and would never happen in lore. Even Lorgar is too good. He beat down Anngrath. (Forgot where the apostrophes go in his name.) It's not just that it's also that he costs much more than a Paragon Blade Praetor and for some reason has power armor when even the default sergeant can pick up artificer for 10 pts. Combined with him only having what is effectively a slightly worse rending lighting claw he does get murdered by a basic praetor. And Abaddon is even worse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3661925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordBrother13 Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Even in a challenge? I'd figure that if he passed his psychic test and got Precog he'd be quite a bit harder to beat with his re-rolling everything nonsense. I know his leadership is treated as 7 for that, but that's still better than 50/50 which is what a praetor would have to save himself from one of Sev's rending attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3661947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain Angel Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Let me explain. Never mind, to long. Let me sum up. Of all ICs I've seen so far, he is the only one who stands much of a chance. He will rarely ever, but has a slim chance. Most others would die like a dark eldar transport to a leman Russ punisher ignoring cover. Fluff wise, even less. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3662090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordBrother13 Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I can dig that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3662091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 I can't provide that either right now, but I remember where the idea comes from This is the typical response I get. Everyone remembers the idea but not one is able to provide the quote Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3662309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 B1soul, I cant promise I will be able to find it, but ill go through books over the coming few evenings, I have all of them (including novellas etc) I have a feeling its from either prospero burns, thousand sons or one of the many anothologies though - if anyone wants to look now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3662451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Think people are missing the discrepancy that's appeared now that both have rules. From a rules perspective, Sigismund will beat Abaddon. Convincingly. If they lock blades in a novel ? Less so. It's been confirmed there's this upper echelon amongst the Legions of around 15 who are in a class all of their own in which you find the usual suspects: Abaddon, Sigismund, Khan, Sevatar, Corswain etc etc. When each of them have rules, it's much easier to quantify their abilities because those abilities are constrained within the framework of the 40k rules. There's no special rule for tripping over debris and getting a heart-thrust for example (note, I'll be nerdraging if that indeed happens to any major character, such a kop out) Fast forward to Abaddon's rules in C:CSM and he will beat Sigismund. There's no way round that. Should it be reflected in a novel? Absolutely. It would be great for Abaddon's character if he happened to lose to Sigismund and fled only to return once he's learned his lessons and solidified his control over the Traitor Legions. Lest we forget, he's the Warmaster of Chaos. Titles like that aren't handed out for kicks. He'd have to earn it, in blood, and what better way to begin the end of the Imperium? Kill it's greatest warrior. It won't be easy and he'll bleed but he'll crawl away at the end of it all victorious because that's pretty much the story of 40k, you beat chaos or succumb to chaos but in the end, chaos wins Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3662465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle captain corpus Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Hmmmm... ...Hmmmm.... My two favourite Legions...two of my favourite characters...Hmmmmm... It depends for me. If it was Crusade era, ie; pre heresy, then possibly my money would be on Sigismund. That's just a gut feeling for me. Post heresy, Abaddon. Something snapped and changed in that man when Horus fell, and its as if he knows he was marked for greatness. As if he knew when he would die and was not this day etc..... Sigismund is a phenomenal warrior and against the likes of humble line captains he would cut a swathe. Against the likes of Aximand? I reckon he would have the edge.... But the likes of Khan, Abaddon and of course the legendary Sevetar.....little hope. Of course my viewpoint is from the fluff point of view.....rules wise...let the dice decide! :D BCC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3662487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 That's pretty much the story of 40k, you beat chaos or succumb to chaos but in the end, chaos wins Christ, I hope it's more nuanced than that. The thought of those four (expletive deleted) in the warp inevitably winning is downright appalling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3662876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordBrother13 Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Hmmmm... ...Hmmmm.... My two favourite Legions...two of my favourite characters...Hmmmmm... It depends for me. If it was Crusade era, ie; pre heresy, then possibly my money would be on Sigismund. That's just a gut feeling for me. Post heresy, Abaddon. Something snapped and changed in that man when Horus fell, and its as if he knows he was marked for greatness. As if he knew when he would die and was not this day etc..... Sigismund is a phenomenal warrior and against the likes of humble line captains he would cut a swathe. Against the likes of Aximand? I reckon he would have the edge.... But the likes of Khan, Abaddon and of course the legendary Sevetar.....little hope. Of course my viewpoint is from the fluff point of view.....rules wise...let the dice decide! BCC If you're viewpoint is from the fluff point of view, than you might need to reread some stuff. Abaddon was awesome back in the day, yes, but he had trouble with Loken. I doubt Loken would have put up much of a fight against Khârn if Khârn hadn't been impaled on a tank. From that guesstimation, I'd say that Abaddon is worse than Khârn, even before Khârn's best bro got killed and he decided to go full on beast-mode. And Sevatar and Sigismund duelled in the practice cages for like over a day. They were too evenly matched, and Sev got bored and disqualified himself. If they were to fight on the battlefield with no rules, it could very well be the same thing except Sigismund wouldn't be caught off guard by a cheap trick. Now, I'd say that both Sev and Sigismund are better than Khârn, (in the rules it's obvious) but Khârn I'm not sure if either of them are straight up better than Khârn after Argel Tal got killed. Pre-Heresy, Sev and Sig were the top (unless we get more information on others like Raldoron later that elevates them). During Heresy, Sev, Sig, and Khârn. Post-Heresy, Khârn, Abaddon once he becomes the champion of Chaos, Sig until he gets killed, and Sevatar IF he lives through the Heresy(since ADB wants to make that all iffy lol). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3662895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 B1soul, I cant promise I will be able to find it, but ill go through books over the coming few evenings, I have all of them (including novellas etc) I have a feeling its from either prospero burns, thousand sons or one of the many anothologies though - if anyone wants to look now. Already searched through those. Did a ctrl+f search for 'spar,' 'duel,' and 'Valdor' last night through the HH books released 2011 and prior, due to threads about this match appearing as late as 2011. Including Collected Visions. Closest I could find was Nemesis, with Dorn confronting Valdor on the sparring matches over the use of assassins. In it, Valdor is careful to not appear threatening, because a match with a Primarch, even a sparring match, would likely end badly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3662950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 That's pretty much the story of 40k, you beat chaos or succumb to chaos but in the end, chaos wins Christ, I hope it's more nuanced than that. The thought of those four (expletive deleted) in the warp inevitably winning is downright appalling.Its never been any different. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3662961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Indeed, Chaos wins, and everyone (including Chaos) eventually loses. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/12/#findComment-3662991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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