Abaddon vs Sigismund

[Vesper]

Hmmmm...

...Hmmmm....

My two favourite Legions...two of my favourite characters...Hmmmmm...

It depends for me. If it was Crusade era, ie; pre heresy, then possibly my money would be on Sigismund. That's just a gut feeling for me.

Post heresy, Abaddon. Something snapped and changed in that man when Horus fell, and its as if he knows he was marked for greatness. As if he knew when he would die and was not this day etc.....

Sigismund is a phenomenal warrior and against the likes of humble line captains he would cut a swathe. Against the likes of Aximand? I reckon he would have the edge....

But the likes of Khan, Abaddon and of course the legendary Sevetar.....little hope.

Of course my viewpoint is from the fluff point of view.....rules wise...let the dice decide!

BCC

If you're viewpoint is from the fluff point of view, than you might need to reread some stuff. Abaddon was awesome back in the day, yes, but he had trouble with Loken. I doubt Loken would have put up much of a fight against Khârn if Khârn hadn't been impaled on a tank. From that guesstimation, I'd say that Abaddon is worse than Khârn, even before Khârn's best bro got killed and he decided to go full on beast-mode. And Sevatar and Sigismund duelled in the practice cages for like over a day. They were too evenly matched, and Sev got bored and disqualified himself. If they were to fight on the battlefield with no rules, it could very well be the same thing except Sigismund wouldn't be caught off guard by a cheap trick. Now, I'd say that both Sev and Sigismund are better than Khârn, (in the rules it's obvious) but Khârn I'm not sure if either of them are straight up better than Khârn after Argel Tal got killed. Pre-Heresy, Sev and Sig were the top (unless we get more information on others like Raldoron later that elevates them). During Heresy, Sev, Sig, and Khârn. Post-Heresy, Khârn, Abaddon once he becomes the champion of Chaos, Sig until he gets killed, and Sevatar IF he lives through the Heresy(since ADB wants to make that all iffy lol).

He had troubles with Loken ?

i don't read it like that. Not at all.

[Kol Saresk]

IIRC, Abaddon grabbed Loken's revving chainsword, pulled it out of his chest and then proceeded to bury Loken in rubble. Hardly sounds like someone who has a problem winning a fight.

[Wade Garrett]

If you're viewpoint is from the fluff point of view, than you might need to reread some stuff. Abaddon was awesome back in the day, yes, but he had trouble with Loken. I doubt Loken would have put up much of a fight against Khârn if Khârn hadn't been impaled on a tank.

 

Maybe YOU should reread the fluff.

 

Loken is going to be a Grandmaster of the Grey Knights, and it is long established in the lore that Grey Knight Grandmasters > Primarchs, with Brother Captain Aurelian and Khaldor Draigo defeating Angron and Mortarion all by themselves.

 

Khârn had to run away atop a Sons of Horus Rhino because he knew he could never beat Loken, and even Abaddon couldn't beat the former Mournival member without getting a Titan and an orbital bombardment to help him out.

 

Sevatar and Sigmund never even dared to step in the ring with future Grey Knight Grandmasters like Garro or Loken because they were too afraid of them. Horus, Angron, Mortarion, and Fulgrim also refused to fight Garro and Loken on Isstvan 3 because they knew they would lose.

 

I think the fact that Abaddon was willing to face a Grandmaster, even with a Titan and a battle barge backing him up, proves that he is the best warrior alive in M31.

[Emperor's Furor]

Nvm I missed the sarcasm lol.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

 

I take issue with the claim Sigismund is the greatest warrior the Heresy era Imperium has (Nicodemus of the XIII, Amit & Raldoron of the IX, Bjorn of the VI, etc all say hi).

 

As far as him vs Abaddon...generally, the smart money option is to bet on the guy wearing Terminator armor over the guy who isn't.

 

What about if the guy who isnt in terminator armour is a ravenguard ninja marine, what then!

 

On topic: I would rather Sigismund be an unstoppable force after getting his dressing down by Dorn. I'm pulling for the guy when he kills Khârn...

There are plenty of examples of Terminator plate being more of a hinderance than a help against a truely skilled opponant. A more nimble opponant could dance around the slow attacks open up the leg grieves at their rear the drive a blade down through the gorget or into an eye socked. Sigismund vs Khârn will be the high point of the heresy to my mind.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

I take issue with the claim Sigismund is the greatest warrior the Heresy era Imperium has (Nicodemus of the XIII, Amit & Raldoron of the IX, Bjorn of the VI, etc all say hi).

 

As far as him vs Abaddon...generally, the smart money option is to bet on the guy wearing Terminator armor over the guy who isn't.

 

What about if the guy who isnt in terminator armour is a ravenguard ninja marine, what then!

 

On topic: I would rather Sigismund be an unstoppable force after getting his dressing down by Dorn. I'm pulling for the guy when he kills Khârn...

 

 

There are plenty of examples of Terminator plate being more of a hinderance than a help against a truely skilled opponant. A more nimble opponant could dance around the slow attacks open up the leg grieves at their rear the drive a blade down through the gorget or into an eye socked. Sigismund vs Khârn will be the high point of the heresy to my mind.

 

 

That's one of the reasons Abaddon is such a big deal. He is never not wearing Terminator armor and yet he can keep up with the most agile of them. Except for plot-armored Raven Sues written by McNeil of course. Even the Flash couldn't keep up with him.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

If you're viewpoint is from the fluff point of view, than you might need to reread some stuff. Abaddon was awesome back in the day, yes, but he had trouble with Loken. I doubt Loken would have put up much of a fight against Khârn if Khârn hadn't been impaled on a tank.

Maybe YOU should reread the fluff.

Loken is going to be a Grandmaster of the Grey Knights, and it is long established in the lore that Grey Knight Grandmasters > Primarchs, with Brother Captain Aurelian and Khaldor Draigo defeating Angron and Mortarion all by themselves.

Khârn had to run away atop a Sons of Horus Rhino because he knew he could never beat Loken, and even Abaddon couldn't beat the former Mournival member without getting a Titan and an orbital bombardment to help him out.

Sevatar and Sigmund never even dared to step in the ring with future Grey Knight Grandmasters like Garro or Loken because they were too afraid of them. Horus, Angron, Mortarion, and Fulgrim also refused to fight Garro and Loken on Isstvan 3 because they knew they would lose.

I think the fact that Abaddon was willing to face a Grandmaster, even with a Titan and a battle barge backing him up, proves that he is the best warrior alive in M31.

Not sure if sarcasm...

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

If you're viewpoint is from the fluff point of view, than you might need to reread some stuff. Abaddon was awesome back in the day, yes, but he had trouble with Loken. I doubt Loken would have put up much of a fight against Khârn if Khârn hadn't been impaled on a tank.

Maybe YOU should reread the fluff.

Loken is going to be a Grandmaster of the Grey Knights, and it is long established in the lore that Grey Knight Grandmasters > Primarchs, with Brother Captain Aurelian and Khaldor Draigo defeating Angron and Mortarion all by themselves.

Khârn had to run away atop a Sons of Horus Rhino because he knew he could never beat Loken, and even Abaddon couldn't beat the former Mournival member without getting a Titan and an orbital bombardment to help him out.

Sevatar and Sigmund never even dared to step in the ring with future Grey Knight Grandmasters like Garro or Loken because they were too afraid of them. Horus, Angron, Mortarion, and Fulgrim also refused to fight Garro and Loken on Isstvan 3 because they knew they would lose.

I think the fact that Abaddon was willing to face a Grandmaster, even with a Titan and a battle barge backing him up, proves that he is the best warrior alive in M31.

 

 

Not sure if sarcasm...

 

 

Its Wade.

[Vesper]

 

 

 

If you're viewpoint is from the fluff point of view, than you might need to reread some stuff. Abaddon was awesome back in the day, yes, but he had trouble with Loken. I doubt Loken would have put up much of a fight against Khârn if Khârn hadn't been impaled on a tank.

Maybe YOU should reread the fluff.

Loken is going to be a Grandmaster of the Grey Knights, and it is long established in the lore that Grey Knight Grandmasters > Primarchs, with Brother Captain Aurelian and Khaldor Draigo defeating Angron and Mortarion all by themselves.

Khârn had to run away atop a Sons of Horus Rhino because he knew he could never beat Loken, and even Abaddon couldn't beat the former Mournival member without getting a Titan and an orbital bombardment to help him out.

Sevatar and Sigmund never even dared to step in the ring with future Grey Knight Grandmasters like Garro or Loken because they were too afraid of them. Horus, Angron, Mortarion, and Fulgrim also refused to fight Garro and Loken on Isstvan 3 because they knew they would lose.

I think the fact that Abaddon was willing to face a Grandmaster, even with a Titan and a battle barge backing him up, proves that he is the best warrior alive in M31.

 

Not sure if sarcasm...

 

Its Wade.

And it's as cool as ever.

[jeremy1391]

 

 

Am I the only one not pissed about this? I think it's great. I'm hoping we get an A D B duel dialogue about the black Templars inheriting the great crusade and Abaddon shoving his sword through his heart while telling him the Great Crusade is over.

That would be the obvious motif to play out between them, wouldn't it? (Especially with how much I made the Eternal Crusade a keystone of how my Templars think, in Helsreach). And yet, sometimes the obvious choice is the awesomest.

 

Caps Lock joking from earlier aside, no, I think there's only one voice in this thread "pissed about this", and in fairness to WoT, he's setting up an unsustainable position quoting Black Library's joke about how a previous employee didn't like the Imperial Fists. (That previous employee was a short story editor, by the by, and he "didn't like them" to the extent that he didn't like yellow very much, and it became a joke.) It's times like this that you could kinda cringe about the fan reaction over everything, because there'll always be one or two where the answer's unacceptable no matter what it is. I mean, Sigismund has to die at some point. That's not being a meanie to the Fists or the Templars. If Chaos - the faction that routinely loses even in books about Chaos Marines - are somehow unfair for landing the killing blow, let alone that it's delivered by the actual Antichrist of the 40K setting, which is about as glorious a death as a Space Marine can get... Or if the fact Sigismund dies at all is untenable, I mean... what hope do you have?

 

It comes down to trusting in your knowledge of the setting and telling what you think is a good story. Did Homer hate Hector because Hector dies and Troy loses in the Iliad? You can take this stuff way too far.

 

In this case, at the last BL Weekender on one of the Heresy panels, it was asked what happened in the First Black Crusade, seeing as Cadia wasn't reinforced by that point. And I replied that I liked the idea of the Imperium victorious after the Scouring, committing the Nine Legions to the role of myth and legend while the Legions were trapped in the purgatory of the Eye. So when the newly formed Black Legion returns at the vanguard of the Armies of the Damned, they're almost entirely unopposed. Almost. "There's this ancient knight-king, leaning on his sword as he sits on his throne, a thousand years old but too proud and dutiful to die. And when the Black Legion break out of the Eye, the Black Templars are waiting for them." Hugely outnumbered: the only ones that insisted the Imperium's sins would come home to roost, the only Chapter to face humanity's sins coming back to haunt the species. As the Crusade unfolds, a lot of the Imperium joins in. But Sigismund was there first, waiting for Abaddon. The one duel he never got to fight on Terra.

 

And then I turned to my editor and said "That'll be Book Two."

 

But maybe WoT will catch a break and it'll all change. I like the idea and there's no finer swansong for one of the greatest Imperial heroes, though I change my mind as much as anyone else and may decide he gets food poisoning or something.

ADB do I have to sell you my soul for you to make this a reality?

[SwordBrother13]

Hmmmm...

...Hmmmm....

My two favourite Legions...two of my favourite characters...Hmmmmm...

It depends for me. If it was Crusade era, ie; pre heresy, then possibly my money would be on Sigismund. That's just a gut feeling for me.

Post heresy, Abaddon. Something snapped and changed in that man when Horus fell, and its as if he knows he was marked for greatness. As if he knew when he would die and was not this day etc.....

Sigismund is a phenomenal warrior and against the likes of humble line captains he would cut a swathe. Against the likes of Aximand? I reckon he would have the edge....

But the likes of Khan, Abaddon and of course the legendary Sevetar.....little hope.

Of course my viewpoint is from the fluff point of view.....rules wise...let the dice decide!

BCC

If you're viewpoint is from the fluff point of view, than you might need to reread some stuff. Abaddon was awesome back in the day, yes, but he had trouble with Loken. I doubt Loken would have put up much of a fight against Khârn if Khârn hadn't been impaled on a tank. From that guesstimation, I'd say that Abaddon is worse than Khârn, even before Khârn's best bro got killed and he decided to go full on beast-mode. And Sevatar and Sigismund duelled in the practice cages for like over a day. They were too evenly matched, and Sev got bored and disqualified himself. If they were to fight on the battlefield with no rules, it could very well be the same thing except Sigismund wouldn't be caught off guard by a cheap trick. Now, I'd say that both Sev and Sigismund are better than Khârn, (in the rules it's obvious) but Khârn I'm not sure if either of them are straight up better than Khârn after Argel Tal got killed. Pre-Heresy, Sev and Sig were the top (unless we get more information on others like Raldoron later that elevates them). During Heresy, Sev, Sig, and Khârn. Post-Heresy, Khârn, Abaddon once he becomes the champion of Chaos, Sig until he gets killed, and Sevatar IF he lives through the Heresy(since ADB wants to make that all iffy lol).

He had troubles with Loken ?

i don't read it like that. Not at all.

I reread it, and sure enough it wasn't like I remembered. To Kol_Saresk, he grabbed Loken's wrist and not the chainblade itself although that would hardly be a surprise considering he's in Cataphractii, and a Titan hit the building and buried Loken in rubble, not Abaddon. I still don't find that to be anywhere near enough to say that he'd be better than either Sig or Sev, but I have been proven wrong and made a fool out of myself, so I withdraw.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmmm...

...Hmmmm....

 

My two favourite Legions...two of my favourite characters...Hmmmmm...

 

It depends for me. If it was Crusade era, ie; pre heresy, then possibly my money would be on Sigismund. That's just a gut feeling for me.

Post heresy, Abaddon. Something snapped and changed in that man when Horus fell, and its as if he knows he was marked for greatness. As if he knew when he would die and was not this day etc.....

 

Sigismund is a phenomenal warrior and against the likes of humble line captains he would cut a swathe. Against the likes of Aximand? I reckon he would have the edge....

But the likes of Khan, Abaddon and of course the legendary Sevetar.....little hope.

 

Of course my viewpoint is from the fluff point of view.....rules wise...let the dice decide! :D

 

BCC

 

If you're viewpoint is from the fluff point of view, than you might need to reread some stuff. Abaddon was awesome back in the day, yes, but he had trouble with Loken. I doubt Loken would have put up much of a fight against Khârn if Khârn hadn't been impaled on a tank. From that guesstimation, I'd say that Abaddon is worse than Khârn, even before Khârn's best bro got killed and he decided to go full on beast-mode. And Sevatar and Sigismund duelled in the practice cages for like over a day. They were too evenly matched, and Sev got bored and disqualified himself. If they were to fight on the battlefield with no rules, it could very well be the same thing except Sigismund wouldn't be caught off guard by a cheap trick. Now, I'd say that both Sev and Sigismund are better than Khârn, (in the rules it's obvious) but Khârn I'm not sure if either of them are straight up better than Khârn after Argel Tal got killed. Pre-Heresy, Sev and Sig were the top (unless we get more information on others like Raldoron later that elevates them). During Heresy, Sev, Sig, and Khârn. Post-Heresy, Khârn, Abaddon once he becomes the champion of Chaos, Sig until he gets killed, and Sevatar IF he lives through the Heresy(since ADB wants to make that all iffy lol).

He had troubles with Loken ?

i don't read it like that. Not at all.

I reread it, and sure enough it wasn't like I remembered. To Kol_Saresk, he grabbed Loken's wrist and not the chainblade itself although that would hardly be a surprise considering he's in Cataphractii, and a Titan hit the building and buried Loken in rubble, not Abaddon. I still don't find that to be anywhere near enough to say that he'd be better than either Sig or Sev, but I have been proven wrong and made a fool out of myself, so I withdraw.

In technical skill I would say Sigismund and Sevatar are superior but you have to factor in Abaddon's strength aswell which to me would balance it out.

[Rain]

Eh, am I the only one that doesn't much dig the idea of Sevatar being such a great duelist? It just doesn't "fit" the Night Lords to have someone so good at such an honorable activity. Even if he doesn't really respect the rules, it just feels weird thematically. It fits Sigismund and the knightly theme of the IF 1st Company, it fits the Dark Angels, and Blood Angels, and Emperor's Children, but it just doesn't jive with the Night Lords. So I vote Sigismund for the sake of theme.

 

As for Sigi v. Honest Abe, I would think Sigi is a better duelist whereas Abe is more all around. He is foremost a general, and I think he should be presented more as a commander and an architect of the long war (especially post Heresy) than just a "my dad can beat up your dad" beatstick. Which is I guess why I mostly tend away from these kinds of discussions, it often feels like juvenile chest thumping over your faction's "like, really powerful guy that can kick anyone's ass and is totally the best".

[Wade Garrett]

A more nimble opponant could dance around the slow attacks open up the leg grieves at their rear the drive a blade down through the gorget or into an eye socked.

 

You are grossly underestimating how much of a game changer superior armor is.

 

Imagine a fencing match between an opponent who can only score by hitting the eyes and neck, and one who can land a scoring blow anywhere. Who do you think has the advantage here?

 

And if you want examples of Astartes in Tactical Dreadnaught Armor versus those without, look at Vraal against Mercutian, Cyrion, and Xarl in Soul Hunter.

 

Three on one isn't so bad when the one can walk right through bolt rounds and sword blows while tossing the three around like rag dolls.

[b1soul]

Eh, am I the only one that doesn't much dig the idea of Sevatar being such a great duelist?

 

Any top Astartes champ has a significant chance of beating any other top Astartes champ. Same thing with the primarchs. 

 

What it boils down to is the odds. 

 

That said, I would find it weird if Sevatar or any other Traitor champion has greater than 50% odds against Abaddon in a 1 on 1 brawl/duel/whatever. I've always thought of Abaddon as the mightiest of the Traitor champions followed closely by other Traitor first captains and elite champions and such.

 

To have Abaddon supplanted by Sevatar or some other Traitor champion as the greatest champion on the Traitor side rubs me the wrong way.  

 

Sigismund is the greatest on the Loyalist side and Abaddon is the greatest on the Traitor side. That's how it should be IMO. However, I'm not going to throw a tantrum if an authour has a different view on the matter. This is simply my interpretation of the fluff. 

[Rain]

I suppose you have a point. Although again, I'd argue that Abaddon is special because of his vision and purpose in eventually (sort of) uniting the disparate factions of Chaos Space Marines and waging the long war, not for one on one martial skill. A good duelist is not necessarily a good general, and vice versa.

[b1soul]

I suppose you have a point. Although again, I'd argue that Abaddon is special because of his vision and purpose in eventually (sort of) uniting the disparate factions of Chaos Space Marines and waging the long war, not for one on one martial skill. A good duelist is not necessarily a good general, and vice versa.

 

No, Abaddon is also famous for being an elite hand to hand fighter. See Savage Weapons. 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Eh, am I the only one that doesn't much dig the idea of Sevatar being such a great duelist?

 

Any top Astartes champ has a significant chance of beating any other top Astartes champ. Same thing with the primarchs. 

 

What it boils down to is the odds. 

 

That said, I would find it weird if Sevatar or any other Traitor champion has greater than 50% odds against Abaddon in a 1 on 1 brawl/duel/whatever. I've always thought of Abaddon as the mightiest of the Traitor champions followed closely by other Traitor first captains and elite champions and such.

 

To have Abaddon supplanted by Sevatar or some other Traitor champion as the greatest champion on the Traitor side rubs me the wrong way.  

 

Sigismund is the greatest on the Loyalist side and Abaddon is the greatest on the Traitor side. That's how it should be IMO. However, I'm not going to throw a tantrum if an authour has a different view on the matter. This is simply my interpretation of the fluff.

 

 

Nothing has supplanted Abaddon as the number one Traitor champion. I think what has happened is the same thinking as "Failbaddon": poor representation.

 

The exact same problem, but magnified, exists with Lucius. What is basically happening is that we are seeing these top-combat characters in either an "eh" light(Galaxy in Flames for Abaddon; which also equals a total lack of representation) or in the worst light imaginable(Lucius; need I say more?).

 

So when someone like say, Sevatar, is well-represented, it creates this disillusion that the "newbie" is stealing the spotlight when in actuality its just that the newbie's spotlight actually works while the classics are using broken spotlights because someone forgot to clean the lens or change the bulb.

 

When it comes down to it though, characters like Abaddon, Lucius and Sevatar are archetypes of their Legions. And what that means for Abaddon, is that he is the archetype of what has always been stated as being the best Legion around. He always has been and always will be, the top dog. Of course, assuming that means he will never have a bad day is equivalent to assuming that there will never be a day where the sun doesn't shine.

[b1soul]

its just that the newbie's spotlight actually works while the classics are using broken spotlights because someone forgot to clean the lens or change the bulb.

 

This needs to be remedied

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

its just that the newbie's spotlight actually works while the classics are using broken spotlights because someone forgot to clean the lens or change the bulb.

This needs to be remedied

You'll find no disagreement from me.

[Karthak]

 

When it comes down to it though, characters like Abaddon, Lucius and Sevatar are archetypes of their Legions. 

Hmm. Hmmmmmm.

 

Lucius an archetype of his Legion? Narcissistic, egoistic, easily provoked, arrogant, etc...Yeah, I can see that.

 

Is it any wonder that he gets pounded into the dirt constantly?

[Deus Imperator Vult]

 

 

I reread it, and sure enough it wasn't like I remembered. To Kol_Saresk, he grabbed Loken's wrist and not the chainblade itself although that would hardly be a surprise considering he's in Cataphractii, and a Titan hit the building and buried Loken in rubble, not Abaddon. I still don't find that to be anywhere near enough to say that he'd be better than either Sig or Sev, but I have been proven wrong and made a fool out of myself, so I withdraw.

In technical skill I would say Sigismund and Sevatar are superior but you have to factor in Abaddon's strength aswell which to me would balance it out.

I think there are alot more factors that contribute to making a warrior 'the best' I mean when you read characters like Loken (appart from when he fought Abaddon), Garro, and Corswain their skill comes more from rigerous training and battlefield awareness. Characters like Lucius (yes I know he's not getting the best showing but still ) and Sevatar it's more instinct and skill. And warriors like Khârn and Kroger (the Iron Warrior may be spelling it wrong) are much more about zealous fighters throwing themselves at a miniscule opening that perhaps a fighter like Garro would avoid due to the risk. There are also things like ability to command and or fight with a squad. I mean just personally from reading Fear to Tread I think Raldoran seems like a much more accomplished leader of men than say Corswain or Sigismund.

 

 

A more nimble opponant could dance around the slow attacks open up the leg grieves at their rear the drive a blade down through the gorget or into an eye socked.

You are grossly underestimating how much of a game changer superior armor is.

 

Imagine a fencing match between an opponent who can only score by hitting the eyes and neck, and one who can land a scoring blow anywhere. Who do you think has the advantage here?

 

And if you want examples of Astartes in Tactical Dreadnaught Armor versus those without, look at Vraal against Mercutian, Cyrion, and Xarl in Soul Hunter.

 

Three on one isn't so bad when the one can walk right through bolt rounds and sword blows while tossing the three around like rag dolls.

Not at all I realise the warrior with the better armour will win 4 times out of 5 but I'm just saying it does have some drawbacks. Drawbacks which a gifted fighter or one who has deliberatly practiced fighting heavily armoured opponants would be able to exploit. We know what Sigismund is like for a challenge do we really think he won't have been dueling opponants in Terminator armour the minute it was introduced to the legion.

 

True but for every example like that there is one like Khârn (bare armed) vs Tarougar in Chosen of Khorne hell the entrire Ultramarines first company from the Battle of Macragge will tell you Terminator plate doesn't make you invaunerable.

[b1soul]

 

In technical skill I would say Sigismund and Sevatar are superior but you have to factor in Abaddon's strength aswell which to me would balance it out.

 

Sevatar's "technical skill" is partially, maybe even mostly, a product of his "repressed psyker" abilities (judging by Prince of Crows, boosted speed and combat precog)

[Marshall Bretton]

 

When it comes down to it though, characters like Abaddon, Lucius and Sevatar are archetypes of their Legions. And what that means for Abaddon, is that he is the archetype of what has always been stated as being the best Legion around. He always has been and always will be, the top dog. Of course, assuming that means he will never have a bad day is equivalent to assuming that there will never be a day where the sun doesn't shine.

 

But that is a skewed perspective, there are many places where the ultramarines or the dark angels are claimed to be the best legion, does that mean that their champions are therefore the best around? Not in my opinion.

 

 

Regarding armour, abbadon may well have terminator plate, but there are suits of power armour that offer greater protection than terminator plate. Sigismund has a suit of artificer armour with an iron halo which is at least as durable as terminator plate, but with none of the downsides. Same for others like sevatar as well.

Also I always got the impression that abbadon was considered strong because he was always in terminator plate, might just be how i interpreted it

[Antarius]

 

 

*snip

 

Dude that's exactly the reason why I love Imperial Fists. They bleed, they die, yet they endure. They are not fancy, friendly heroes wrapped in battle honours, they are stubborn bloodied soldiers fighting in mud. They are always in the enemy's way and stay there. That's why enemy needs to get rid of them so he descend on them in numbers. Yet they fight. Despite being severely outnumbered and outgunned they fight to the last breath, cursing the enemy, bleeding, and dying for Imperium.

 

Concerning Sigis fate, we always knew he died at some point. Somehow I got the feeling he didn't die of old age while gardening during his retirement, but his death has rather violent. I would MUCH appreciated if he would die by the hand of what Chaos has to offer rather than by hand of some random chaos/ork warlord who then carved his ... you know the drill. :D

 

EDIT: And HH is an entire different beast. In the start of Heresy they were literally only thing that stood between Horus and Terra. One legion against several others, needing to spread out through entire galaxy to defend it. Of course they are going to encounter enemy a lot. With numbers being not exactly on their side.

 Indeed. This, more than anything, is what draws me to the Imperial Fists. Let others take glory in easy victories; our glory lies in taking the hopeless stand against the encroaching darkness. That we die matters not, as long as our bodies shield humanity against the inevitable for just a moment more.

 

Or to put it another way; would Sanguinius have been more or less a heroic figure if he had not fallen against Horus?

 

Wouldn't that be cool if that was the catalyst to get Dorn involved?

It would. I could see a bit of a Faramir/Denethor theme there. The whole "your father loves you and will remember it before the end" vibe. Only, this being the 41st millenium, the son actually does die and the father's suicidal grief is one of vengeance.