Abaddon vs Sigismund

[Aegnor]

Potentially related question. Do we know how Sigismund died?

[Stonerhino]

I KNOW. I KNOW THE ANSWER. 

 

But then, I cheated. I wrote the answer a few months ago.

 

It may still get changed in editing, mind you.

I hope that means a clear winner and not a well writen draw...

[Týr]

Between those two Alpharius would win. He always wins. 

[A D-B]

Potentially related question. Do we know how Sigismund died?

 

I DO I DO PICK ME.

 

 

I KNOW. I KNOW THE ANSWER. 

 

But then, I cheated. I wrote the answer a few months ago.

 

It may still get changed in editing, mind you.

I hope that means a clear winner and not a well writen draw...

 

Teehee. Touche', dearest Stonerhino.

[Legatus]

 

Potentially related question. Do we know how Sigismund died?

 

I DO I DO PICK ME.

 

We are all ears.

[Visitor13]

I KNOW. I KNOW THE ANSWER.

But then, I cheated. I wrote the answer a few months ago.

It may still get changed in editing, mind you.

A D-B hates Templars/Fist start in 3, 2, 1...

A D-B hates Chaos start in 3,2,1... ;)

[RapatoR]

A D-B hates Chaos start in 3,2,1...

Oh come on he knows how Sigismund died and knows who would win a fight between the two, isn't that obvious enough? :D

[Visitor13]

A D-B hates Chaos start in 3,2,1...

Oh come on he knows how Sigismund died and knows who would win a fight between the two, isn't that obvious enough?

Hope is the first step on the road to Games Workshop.

[Wade Garrett]

I take issue with the claim Sigismund is the greatest warrior the Heresy era Imperium has (Nicodemus of the XIII, Amit & Raldoron of the IX, Bjorn of the VI, etc all say hi).

 

As far as him vs Abaddon...generally, the smart money option is to bet on the guy wearing Terminator armor over the guy who isn't.

[Emperor's Furor]

If both fight during the Heresy then neither die since Sigismund goes on to found the Black Templars and Abaddon runs away to the eye of terror. I fancy Sigismund to win though, he'd have the agility and ability to penetrate terminator armour unlike Loken's weapon. Plus we know Sigismunds routinely fought with World Eaters in their pits and was undefeated and they fight dirty, so he should be used to it.

[Sothalor]

If both fight during the Heresy then neither die since Sigismund goes on to found the Black Templars and Abaddon runs away to the eye of terror. I fancy Sigismund to win though, he'd have the agility and ability to penetrate terminator armour unlike Loken's weapon. Plus we know Sigismunds routinely fought with World Eaters in their pits and was undefeated and they fight dirty, so he should be used to it.

Admittedly, after the Heresy is a whole 'nother ballgame.

And I don't think it's ever been stated before exactly how Sigismund dies.

It does make sense for the leader of the Eternal Crusade to take the fight to the heir of the traitor Warmaster though, doesn't it?

And we know who's still around and kicking (if only because he has no arms ) in the 41st Millenium...

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Well, it might also be the fact that Sigismund was given the best armour and weapons of the time. Or it could be that the Abba vs Sigi fight A D-B has is pre-Emepror's Champion.

 

It also depends on the situation and the status of the 2, sure they're Space Marines but if this was a fair fight to the death in the middle of a gladiatorial arena where they are only allowed what they carry then this could turn to Sigismunds favor, because it would be hard to fight dirty and Sigismund is used to fighting in this situation.

If this was a drawn out fight on board a ship or in the middle of a battlefield where Sigismund was fighting 2-10 men or the S.o.H. had the advantage and was tired and Abaddon just walks up to him fresh as a daisy then we'd know Abaddon would win. If Sigismund was given the Emperor's Blessing, the newly forged Artificer Armour that he salvaged from Mars, painted Black and carrying his massive Onyx blade that could carve through Terminator Armour like tissue, then he would have the advantage....

 

So it really depends on the status and the situation before and during the fight...

 

I just hope A D-B does this battle of Praetors justice though, Helsreach was an Awesome ride and so was the short story Abaddon....

 

edit: and also the sheer fact that Abaddon is alive in the 41st doesn't necessarily mean he won... Khârn DIED and yet he's still kicking around.... Sigismund could lose, but he also CANNOT die (if this was during HH) because he leads the Black Templars later on.... if this was after Heresy, then Sigismund could die, but that also means that the Abaddon he fought is the same Abaddon who is the Warmaster of Chaos, Blessed Lord of the Chaos Gods and the Archenemy of Humanity that he is today...

 

2nd edit: Because we have an author in the area and my grammar was horrible

[Emperor's Furor]

If Sigismund dies to Abaddon after the heresy then I've had it with black library, there is literally nothing they won't do to poop all over the Imperial Fists.

[Wade Garrett]

Where's this idea that Sigismund

was a master of No Holds Barred fighting come from?

 

We know when he duelled Sevatar it was under some fa la la chivalry & honor ruleset (Disqualified for a head butt my fanny) not to mention that many of his fights in the XII's pits were

only to first blood ("Last blood counts for more.")

[Deadman Wade]

Sigismund defeated all traitor champions he faced at the Siege of Terra, I think that alone makes him extraordinary warrior.

Though I'm getting tired from reading how BT get humiliated whenever possible, I say that Abaddon (or maybe Khârn) is the character who should kill Sigismund.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Still, even if Sigismund AND Abaddon both fought dirty if this was a fight with just the 2 of them, both fresh and rearing, Sigismund would have the advantage because, not only is he more agile, but apparently his sword could carve through TDA. Mind you that Abaddon is still wearing Cataphractii Terminator Armour that is apparently more cumbersome and heavier than the standard Terminator Armour of 40k which would make him slower, but would also be proof that Sigismund could be overpowered because Abaddon would just be stronger.

 

Strength = Abaddon, one lucky hit and Sigismund will be in trouble.

 

Speed + Rending = Sigismund, lighter armour and the Black Sword.

 

It would generally come down.... on who could get an advantage first....

[Kol Saresk]

 

If Sigismund dies to Abaddon after the heresy then I've had it with black library, there is literally nothing they won't do to poop all over the Imperial Fists.

Where is all this pooping on the Imperial Fists? Everything I've read about them has them being stalwart warriors who fought to the bitter last and always dished out more than they got. I mean heck, a still healing Imperial Fist was the first to draw Curze's blood in UE. Not only that, but he survived. And got no new scratches! He's probably the only person in the whole book who can say that!

[Emperor's Furor]

They lose everything they are involved in, their one shining moment is the Siege of Terra, but everything else from 30k through to 40k has them being the generic marines that Black Library uses to put over some other force. Be it not being able to protect the phalanx in the souldrinkers series, to losing an entire company to put over ultramarines in the movie, to endeavour of will, to distant echos of old night, to the beginning of angel exterminatus, to honsu, to the short story where a chaos champion is actually destined to kill an imperial over and over as the fists geneseed is passed on, in the process a single land raider by itself is able to breach the front gate of a keep defended by fists, literally everytime they are asked to defend something they don't come across as capable to do it yet they are meant to be the most famous for it. They are used as black libraries cannon fodder and BL even published a blog post to apologise for the way they have treated imperial fists, that has since been removed but below is what they wrote.

 

"Today sees the early release of Ben Counter’s new Imperial Fists novel, Seventh Retribution. The sons of Dorn haven’t always had the easiest time in Black Library fiction, so we went behind the scenes to explore what makes the Imperial Fists so prone to literary accidents.

It has been commented upon more than once that we here at Black Library don’t always treat the sons of Dorn with the respect deserving of a First Founding Legion.

For years they’ve been used as whipping boys. From the beleaguered Scout retrieving gene-seed from a doomed Apothecary in the comic ‘Last Man Standing’ (which will be reprinted soon in Space Marines: The Omnibus), via a Lord of Change tearing open an Imperial Fists Dreadnought on the cover of Inferno! magazine, all the way through to one of their renegade Successor Chapters running amok on board the Phalanx, the boys in yellow always get a raw deal.

Their successors are not immune to this rough treatment either. The Crimson Fists were almost cleansed from the face of the Imperium in Rynn’s World, hundreds of Black Templars fell to orks in Helsreach and the Hammers of Dorn’s entire First Company turned from the Emperor’s light in the short story ‘Irixa‘. Even the poor Executioners suffered the ignominy of losing a Librarian in the prologue of an audio drama they didn’t even appear in.


When we ventured into the Editorial department to seek answers, we were met only with a wall of silence but, minutes later, a shadowy figure beckoned us to a dark corner of the office. Speaking only on the condition that we changed his or her name, this is what Graham Tyger had to say.

‘It’s not me; it’s the other editors who have it in for the Imperial Fists. I don’t know what’s behind it but I turned up to work once wearing a pair of yellow trousers and none of the other editors spoke to me for a month. Christian (Dunn) only has to look at a banana and he flies into a fit of rage, especially if it’s Nick (Kyme) who’s eating it.’ Chillingly, the mysterious editor’s final words were, ‘I swear, those guys would wipe out the entire Chapter given half a chance,’ before scurrying back to his/her/its desk, Lindsey Priestley having spotted our furtive tete-a-tete.

While we may not be able to make amends for past, and possible future, transgressions against the scions of Dorn, we can offer an olive branch to their legion of fans. Seventh Retribution, by Imperial Fists veteran Ben Counter, isn’t on shelves until July but blacklibrary.com is making the eBook available a full three months early.

We can’t guarantee that no Imperial Fists were harmed in the writing of this book, but we hope it goes some way towards atoning for the many we have slain so mercilessly over the past 16 years."

[Balthamal]

Like pretty much every other thread in this vein, it really doesn't matter. At least not until something appears in print, if indeed it ever does appear in print. Based on the various opinions of characters throughout the rest of the books thus far, Abaddon and Sigismund are at the pinnacle of the Legions in terms of fighting prowess whilst also in the potential mix you have Raldoron, Sevatar, Corswain and Khârn (note to all the people preparing to froth at the mouth over some exclusions, that's just the opinions of characters). So the next question will be, do any of these guys face off against each other? All 3 traitors could go head to head with Sigismund and Raldoron because they're at Terra. Corswain be a tad trickier given the Dark Angels not turning up although there's still 5 years of story to fill in where they may get down to killing again.

 

Personally, I've still got my hopes pinned on Sigismund being the one to kill Khârn, if for no other reason than it will cement his place in the fluff that's been around for years about him killing the greatest champions of the traitor legions during the Siege. As for the other 2, ADB has not so much as dropped a hint at Sevatar's fate and we know Abaddon get's to carry on for a few thousand years but from a character development point of view I think it would be amazing for him to get owned by either Sigismund or Raldoron, preferably by getting his :cuss handed to him. Adds another facet to his personality and legend that he was humbled at Terra yet still dragged himself out of the dirt to become the Warmaster of Chaos

[Demus Ragnok]

 

 

I KNOW. I KNOW THE ANSWER.

 

But then, I cheated. I wrote the answer a few months ago.

 

It may still get changed in editing, mind you.

You damn tease. Don't make me buy a plane ticket.

Dont do it. That much 30/40k imagination power localized will collapse reality!

[Wade Garrett]

On the one hand, I kind of get it...

 

"As long as there are men, there will be warriors. Among those warriors, there will be princes of war. Among those princes there will be kings, and among those kings, an emperor. Such a one was Sigismund. When will we see his like again?"

 

On the other hand, Black Library putting it down in black and white that Sigismund > all other Loyalists, it's Draigo and the executioner Space Wolves all over again, you know?

[Kol Saresk]

*snip

And? Sounds like how Chaos is traditionally written most of the time. That's part of 40K: You will be disappointed. Whether it be the Ultramarines sergeant who became a champion of Nurgle, the big moonshiner who got cut to ribbons to the Night Lord who was killed by the very brother he tried to protect. That is 40K. If it is written for a faction not your own, do not expect your faction to be the glorious victors who effortlessly beat back the darkness. Even when the Blood Angels beat back the Chaos fleet in Soul Hunter, they lost an honored Dreadnought and were seen killing children. In Ben King's Space Wolves novels, Night Lords were slaughtered by only a handful of Wolves. In Graham McNeill's short story, the Night Lords were beaten by the Ultramarines. World Eaters were beaten by Imperial Guardsmen. A Chaos Marine suffered death by pincushion when a group of primitives killed him with blowpipes.

 

But even as a Chaos fan, I still don't think BL is pooping over Chaos. But that is just my opinion.

[Legatus]

In Ben King's Space Wolves novels, Night Lords were slaughtered by only a handful of Wolves. In Graham McNeill's short story, the Night Lords were beaten by the Ultramarines. World Eaters were beaten by Imperial Guardsmen. A Chaos Marine suffered death by pincushion when a group of primitives killed him with blowpipes.

Hm... one of those examples is not like the others. Or maybe it's just intentionally offensive.

[Kol Saresk]

It still gets the point across. As a Night Lords fan, reading about Night Lords losing, regardless of how well written, well you can see where I'm going.

[RapatoR]

*snip

Dude that's exactly the reason why I love Imperial Fists. They bleed, they die, yet they endure. They are not fancy, friendly heroes wrapped in battle honours, they are stubborn bloodied soldiers fighting in mud. They are always in the enemy's way and stay there. That's why enemy needs to get rid of them so he descend on them in numbers. Yet they fight. Despite being severely outnumbered and outgunned they fight to the last breath, cursing the enemy, bleeding, and dying for Imperium.

Concerning Sigis fate, we always knew he died at some point. Somehow I got the feeling he didn't die of old age while gardening during his retirement, but his death has rather violent. I would MUCH appreciated if he would die by the hand of what Chaos has to offer rather than by hand of some random chaos/ork warlord who then carved his ... you know the drill.

EDIT: And HH is an entire different beast. In the start of Heresy they were literally only thing that stood between Horus and Terra. One legion against several others, needing to spread out through entire galaxy to defend it. Of course they are going to encounter enemy a lot. With numbers being not exactly on their side.