Scars by Chris Wraight

[Wade Garrett]

You really don't see how Jaghatai wagging his finger at Mortarion for daring to suggest that he, freedom loving son of the steppes that he is, could harbor any sort of tyranical traits in his heart, is somewhat at odds with his "You do WHAT I tell you, WHEN I tell you, or it's beheading time!" act upon rreturning to Stormsword's bridge?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

There's a big difference, Wade, between tyranny and following the chain of command.

[Aegnor]

Yeah, see a pretty big distinction between insisting on tyrannical control via chain of command in a military organisation versus being a tyrant over a population.

[Kol Saresk]

I see Jaghatai having more in common with Angron; he likes a good fight. And just as he is the Emperor's Warhawk, the V Legion is his; it hunts as he wills. That is not dominion or tyranny, that is using a weapon and not being happy when someone tries to use it without your permission.

[Conn Eremon]

I think we are all arguing semantics, but I agree with Wade that this is an example of hypocrisy. He is against the very thought of tyranny, as he sees it (that of a stationary ruler), but is blind to the fact that his rule over the Legion is a form of tyranny. The Khan is being hypocritical, and this is something I noticed when I first read Scars.

 

Only, I don't think this was an accident on Chris Wraight's part, nor an unforgivable character flaw on the Khan's part. This is Warhammer. Hypocrisy is the norm, the rule, among every single Primarch. And while this is a bit more hypocritical than others, it's quite a bit less than more.

[Sevatar]

Interestingly, I don't believe Ferrus was a hypocrite. He seemed to have a clear idea of the Crusade, as Massacre shows. 'All else is sophistry and petty lies.' Powerful sentence.

[Wade Garrett]

Calling it "respect for the chain of command" does not make the Khan any less hypocritical, what with him blowing off the legitimate chain of command on Terra AND the brother whose call he swore to answer to go dig around in the ashes of Prospero.

 

And that's my problem with Jaghatai, on the one hand you have Yesugei and Ilya ddescribing his wisedom, cunning, and deep insight...but he demonstrates no such traits in the novel.

 

Instead, it's Fulgrim ("He just wants to ride down xenos on those delightful jetbikes") and Mortarion who seem to have him pegged, but I feel as though the author expects me to reject those opinions (hence putting them in the mouths of Fulgrim and Mortarion) and agree with the sage and the Stormseer.

[Nineswords]

As much as some of the higher ups of the movement were corrupted or compromised, I think the reason for the "mercy" is because most of the Warmaster-favoring Scars truly believed the Khan would side with Horus. They weren't traitors, just jumping the gun.

 

 

I think it's unlikely that any of the traitor Scars are going to be sent on penitent crusades just yet. I only read it the once, but do any traitor Scars leave the Legion? I thought they were pretty much full strength at the end of the book.

 

Also I wouldn't be surprised if that Thousand Son ends up with the Knights-Errant.

 

 

 

 Last chapter, in the summing up section its said that several White Scar ships vanish off

"A few smaller vessels never made it to muster, either destroyed by the Death Guard or dissappearing quietly, presumed unwilling to accept the rejection of thier planned accord with the warmaster"

 

Also regarding the penitant crusade bit,

The Khan clasped his hands behind his back. "Warbands" he said, thoughtfully. "Infiltrators. You took this tactic from the Iron Hand. I will think on it. Perhaps some will serve this way"

 

Agreed about the Son, he's got grey knight/inquisition written all over him.

 

Wraight's follow up story Allegiance found in the event-only anthology Sedition's Gate (I really hate paying eBay prices!) is an excellent bookend to where Brotherhood of the Storm begins. Spoilers follow.

 

 

 

• Tribunals for all the White Scars who turned are held. The Khagan exploits the shame generated by allowing them to join the sagyar mazan (the bringers of vengeance), (often suicidal) kill teams that form the vanguard of attack - in fact, the kill team led by Hibou Khan at the end of Little Horus in Age of Darkness is one of the sagyar mazan.
• If you survived, your crime was absolved and you were welcome back into the legion. Some Scars however swore the tsusan garag - the Blood Oath - which cannot be reneged. Jaghatai very reluctantly is forced to execute them.
• Arvida looks more and more like the founder of the Blood Ravens.

 

 

[Perrin]

 

As much as some of the higher ups of the movement were corrupted or compromised, I think the reason for the "mercy" is because most of the Warmaster-favoring Scars truly believed the Khan would side with Horus. They weren't traitors, just jumping the gun.

 

 

I think it's unlikely that any of the traitor Scars are going to be sent on penitent crusades just yet. I only read it the once, but do any traitor Scars leave the Legion? I thought they were pretty much full strength at the end of the book.

 

Also I wouldn't be surprised if that Thousand Son ends up with the Knights-Errant.

 

 

 

 Last chapter, in the summing up section its said that several White Scar ships vanish off

"A few smaller vessels never made it to muster, either destroyed by the Death Guard or dissappearing quietly, presumed unwilling to accept the rejection of thier planned accord with the warmaster"

 

Also regarding the penitant crusade bit,

The Khan clasped his hands behind his back. "Warbands" he said, thoughtfully. "Infiltrators. You took this tactic from the Iron Hand. I will think on it. Perhaps some will serve this way"

 

Agreed about the Son, he's got grey knight/inquisition written all over him.

 

Wraight's follow up story Allegiance found in the event-only anthology Sedition's Gate (I really hate paying eBay prices!) is an excellent bookend to where Brotherhood of the Storm begins. Spoilers follow.

 

 

 

• Tribunals for all the White Scars who turned are held. The Khagan exploits the shame generated by allowing them to join the sagyar mazan (the bringers of vengeance), (often suicidal) kill teams that form the vanguard of attack - in fact, the kill team led by Hibou Khan at the end of Little Horus in Age of Darkness is one of the sagyar mazan.
• If you survived, your crime was absolved and you were welcome back into the legion. Some Scars however swore the tsusan garag - the Blood Oath - which cannot be reneged. Jaghatai very reluctantly is forced to execute them.
• Arvida looks more and more like the founder of the Blood Ravens.

 

 

 

 

What's the new Arvida info?

 

I think he will be, but I think an author or editor said recently that the "Ravens of Blood" thing in ATS is a link to something that happens in a future HH book, not the Blood Ravens.

[Conn Eremon]

I thought the decision was that they felt they had made the connection too obvious and were simply going to stop, not that they were going to reverse it altogether.

[Kol Saresk]

Laurie Goulding over on the First Expedition I believe. He did quite a bit to quell any talk about the Blood Ravens, even going so far to say "They were made by Relic", which to be honest smacked to me of talk similar to Star Wars' handling of the now defunct EU.

[Conn Eremon]

Honestly, when I first read a post of him calling FFG non-canon for being non-GW, I stopped paying attention to what his claims were for canonicity. The only two rules for canon is, and always will be, that all is true and nothing is true.

[Wade Garrett]

He did quite a bit to quell any talk about the Blood Ravens, even going so far to say "They were made by Relic", which to be honest smacked to me of talk similar to Star Wars' handling of the now defunct EU.

The Mouse can have my copies of the Thrawn trilogy and the Rogue/Wraith Squadron books when they pry them from my cold, dead, hands.

 

Which has nothing to do with Scars, but I felt like taking a dramatic stand on a non-issue.

[Nineswords]

 

What's the new Arvida info?

 

I think he will be, but I think an author or editor said recently that the "Ravens of Blood" thing in ATS is a link to something that happens in a future HH book, not the Blood Ravens.

 

 

 

• Yesugei offers Arvida a place within the White Scars should he choose to accept it. Arvida is haunted by what he saw on Prospero and as his psychic powers of the Corvidae begin to return to him on the Swordstorm, he begins to find his purpose as the last remaining Thousand Son of the Great Crusade.
• Also, he has the Flesh Change. 

 

 

[b1soul]

In all fairness, it's pretty clear that Jaghatai gives his legion quite a bit of freedom and his lieutenants enjoy considerable autonomy. I don't that will change in the future. He will however punish those who presumed to know his will, especially on a matter of such import. Note that he hasn't even executed anyone. If you define "tyrant" as any military leader who doesn't run his army as a democracy, then yeah, the Khan is a tyrant. Let's be real here...a whole host of negative connotations are associated with the term "tyrant". I'm not sure if those apply to Jaghatai.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeh, I mean honestly we haven't really seen the Khn do anything any normal military commander wouldn't do, which is expecting his soldiers to obey his orders. Now, if someone questioned his orders, like earlier in the book when that one old lady told him he was an idiot for trying to run the Alpha Legion blockade that he figured was a bluff since the XX were attacking the VI, and he killed them outright just for questioning, then we could start arguing tyranny.

 

As for lack of wisdom, instead of believing the various rumors he was bombarded with, he set out to find the unbiased truth, or as unbiased as he could get it. Doesn't sound too unwise,

[Wade Garrett]

Note that he hasn't even executed anyone.

Pay no attention to that headless noyan-khan on the Stormsword's bridge.

 

Edit:

Khan expects his warriors to render unflinching obedience to HIM above all else, even the Emperor or Horus. If it isn't rendered, he kills them or sends them on suicide missions.

 

He's a tyrant.

 

And no, Kol, just because he doesn't murder everyone who questions his orders out of hand doesn't automatically make him not a tyrant.

 

Perturabo spared Toramino's life when that Warsmith ordered an assault against his orders. Does that mean the IV Primarch is our friend, he fights for FREEDOM?

[Kol Saresk]

You mean the same noyan-khan who raised his sword to Jaghatai himself? Yeah, complete and total tyranny right there when compared to say, Nemiel reminding the Lion of the fact that it is an Emperor-given decree that the Librarius remain disbanded.

[Nineswords]

In all fairness, it's pretty clear that Jaghatai gives his legion quite a bit of freedom and his lieutenants enjoy considerable autonomy. I don't that will change in the future. He will however punish those who presumed to know his will, especially on a matter of such import. Note that he hasn't even executed anyone. If you define "tyrant" as any military leader who doesn't run his army as a democracy, then yeah, the Khan is a tyrant. Let's be real here...a whole host of negative connotations are associated with the term "tyrant". I'm not sure if those apply to Jaghatai.

 

He does, in Allegiance.

 

[Kol Saresk]

 

In all fairness, it's pretty clear that Jaghatai gives his legion quite a bit of freedom and his lieutenants enjoy considerable autonomy. I don't that will change in the future. He will however punish those who presumed to know his will, especially on a matter of such import. Note that he hasn't even executed anyone. If you define "tyrant" as any military leader who doesn't run his army as a democracy, then yeah, the Khan is a tyrant. Let's be real here...a whole host of negative connotations are associated with the term "tyrant". I'm not sure if those apply to Jaghatai.

 

He does, in Allegiance.

 

And according to your spoiler, it was only those who after being tried and found guilty, demanded that they be executed, forcing his hand.

 

[Wade Garrett]

You mean the same noyan-khan who raised his sword to Jaghatai himself?

Ah-hem.

 

Jaghatai was punctuating his every shout with a dramatic wave of his sword, and Hasik drew his own so he could do the same.

 

Of course, much like ignoring orders, waving your sword while you bellow is something only Jaghatai is alllwed to do, any of his sons who try it must die. So he knocks the sword out of Hasik's arm, then stabs the unarmed man through the hearts.

 

Also, Scars explicitly states he intends to send all the lodge members on suicide missions, and we see in "Little Horus" that he does (remember, Hibou Khan's ambush was originally aimed at the Primarch Horus, Aximund was the consolation prize) so saying he doesn't execute anyone would kind of be what we call "lying".

[Kol Saresk]

I'm just going to leave this here so others can judge the scene free of our own bias interpretations.

 

“Hasik bristled. ‘It can still be achieved!’ he cried. ‘We made mistakes, but nonetheless we see the truth. He has called, we must follow. That has always been the way.’

‘You have been lied to.’

‘But, lord, you gave no command.’

‘You were told to wait.’

‘Do not end this now,’ urged Hasik, taking a step closer. ‘Give me time, let me explain.’

‘There is no more time.’

‘Lord, I beg–’

‘Enough!’ roared the Khan, raising his blade.

Perhaps unconsciously, perhaps without meaning to, or perhaps through some misguided belief that his cause lent him the power to do so, Hasik lifted his own in response.

The Khan pounced, sweeping his dao hard and locking edges with Hasik’s tulwar. With a twist, he wrenched the sword from the noyan-khan’s gauntlet, then switched back and plunged the dao’s point deep into Hasik’s midriff. The strike was aimed with perfect precision, lancing through the Terminator plate with a hard crack of disruptor discharge.

Hasik went rigid, impaled just below his hearts, unable to respond as searing energies rippled across his body and locked him in paralysis.

Slowly, grindingly, the Khan hefted Hasik off the ground one-handed, pulling him upwards until their faces were level. His blade kept Hasik in position, bearing his full weight and preventing him from responding.

With every ounce of his post-human strength, the Khan reached for Hasik’s helm with his free hand and wrenched it from his head, casting it to the ground in contempt. For a moment they stared into one another’s eyes – one face white with shock, the other rigid with anger.

‘You say you see the truth,’ snarled the Khan. ‘You know nothing of the truth. If you had done as I had commanded, I would be telling you of it now. Instead I will only tell you this – the Legion is the ordu of Jaghatai, and none bear their blades in it save by my word. Thus it has been since we first fought together on the Altak, and no power of the universe, be it Horus or the Emperor or the gods themselves, will ever change that.’

Hasik’s eyes stared wildly, and blood foamed up at the corner of his mouth. His empty gauntlets flexed impotently.

‘You were given freedom that no other lord would countenance,’ said the Khan, his voice heavy with bitterness. ‘Thus do you repay me, and thus do I strike you down.”

 

Excerpt From: Wraight, Chris. “Scars: Collector's Edition.” Black Library, 2013-12. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

[b1soul]

 

He's a tyrant.

 

 

By your definition, any military leader would be a tyrant. Generals don't run their armies as democracies with referendums and multilateral discussions 

 

I think Wraight implies pretty heavily that of all the primarchs, Jaghatai gives his men the most free reign. However, siding with Horus without first consulting his opinion was too much for Jaghatai to tolerate. 

 

Keep in mind that I don't think Jaghatai will now turn into Joseph Stalin now that his men have abused their freedom. I think he'll reign them in but will still allow for plenty of autonomy compared to other primarchs and their legions

 

Look at how he's punishing the pro-Horus faction. He's setting them loose to redeem themselves. That's not exactly tyrannical. The Khan is a military leader first and foremost. He's only a tyrant in the sense that he's a general running an army. 

 

The Khan doesn't even kill Hasik:

 

Hasik Noyan-Khan remained on the Swordstorm throughout the engagement. Only when Mortarion had been banished did Qin Xa come for him, removing his weapons and armour and escorting him to the confinement chambers.

[Wade Garrett]

Huh.

 

I honestly thought he'd killed Hasik. Generally when someone says "Thus do I strike you down!" that doesn't translate to "Thus do I nonlethally disable you so that a tribunal may decide your fate at a later date."

 

That's no excuse for my lack of reading comprehension, though.

[b1soul]

Huh.

 

I honestly thought he'd killed Hasik. Generally when someone says "Thus do I strike you down!" that doesn't translate to "Thus do I nonlethally disable you so that a tribunal may decide your fate at a later date."

 

Yeah...but he "non-lethally disables" him by impaling him through the gut, rendering him limp and helpless before flinging him aside. I think that qualifies as "striking down" someone. It's not like he puts him in a gentle headlock. 

 

The quote also shows that he only does so after Hasik keeps talking back to him, basically repeated insubordination in front of all the Scars on the bridge. You get the feeling that if Hasik had simply stood down after being told that he "had been lied to", things would've gone a lot better for him...but he persists and ends up raising his sword to his primarch, the ultimate insubordination. 

 

In the end, he even gets a [presumably] fair trial and the Khan is unwilling to execute any members of the pro-Horus faction unless they ask for execution. I have no doubt the likes of Perturabo would've smashed their heads in with his hammer and been done with it. IIRC, Perturabo practices decimation...so yeah