Aegnor Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Agree to disagree regarding whether 30k or 40k was more intolerant and whether the Ultramarine view was mainstream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlover Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Any chance of a quote of the supposed gay joke, along with a link to the tweet confirming that that's what it is? Because that is not cool. Dragonlover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherCaptainArkhan Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Any chance of a quote of the supposed gay joke, along with a link to the tweet confirming that that's what it is? Because that is not cool. Dragonlover Others will say it's unambiguously a gay joke, but I think it's far less sinister than it's been made out to be (although I haven't seen this supposed tweet). Fulgrim says: I hear you do strange things to your bikes. Jaghatai says: I hear you do strange things to your warriors. Given the level of kinky the Emp's Children have progressed to by that point I didn't see it as so much of a gay joke as a comment on their aberrant practices with body mods, xenotic DNA, etc. It's probably more fun to rant at BL for being homophobic though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlover Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 But don't the crazy body mods start after Ullanor, which is when that conversation takes place? Dragonlover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherCaptainArkhan Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 But don't the crazy body mods start after Ullanor, which is when that conversation takes place? Dragonlover You're bang on about it taking place at Ullanor. My bad. I have no idea if there were body mods going on prior to that, I'm not an EC buff. I don't think it's one of those things where there was a clear-cut start point, but someone could enlighten me. In general I still don't see it as a 'haha ur gey' jibe - I was under the impression there was enough oddness about the ECs in the first place (thinking their perfectionist drive which borders slightly on the masochistic) to poke fun at without resorting to 15-year-old Xbox Live trashtalk. I suspect this is something which is in the eye of the beholder, to be honest - maybe I'm burying my head in the sand because I don't really want to think of one of my favourite Primarchs making a totally out-of-character XBL snark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Any chance of a quote of the supposed gay joke, along with a link to the tweet confirming that that's what it is? Because that is not cool. Dragonlover Others will say it's unambiguously a gay joke, but I think it's far less sinister than it's been made out to be (although I haven't seen this supposed tweet). Fulgrim says: I hear you do strange things to your bikes. Jaghatai says: I hear you do strange things to your warriors. Given the level of kinky the Emp's Children have progressed to by that point I didn't see it as so much of a gay joke as a comment on their aberrant practices with body mods, xenotic DNA, etc. It's probably more fun to rant at BL for being homophobic though... Honestly, I didn't get how it could be a gay joke. Guess my thought process is just different. But, Fulgrim(which is when the body mods start) takes place after Ullanor. So it is not a reference to that. I tried asking about it on the First Expedition(I thought it was a continuity error regarding the genetic experimentation) but nope, Laurie Goulding shut it down saying that it was a gay joke because "The Imperium is that fascist". Except for that one nympho composer who slept with every man and/or woman she wanted to, except for the mason, and that Slaaneshi pleasure house on Terra and other examples, but yeah "its that fascist". EDIT: Link to post for reference. http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=1087&view=findpost&p=22097578 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Yeah...very poor choice there, considering the lesbians in ATS as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Didn't A D-B say something like Cyrene's job in Monarchia was a priestess-prostitute? Don't quote me on that, chances are I'm misremembering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 And that is the kicker, it could have been played off so very easily, but instead it is now blatantly declared that it was indeed a tasteless gay joke. Not that gay jokes are tasteless, but this one in particular was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Didn't A D-B say something like Cyrene's job in Monarchia was a priestess-prostitute? Don't quote me on that, chances are I'm misremembering. Yes she was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlover Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Wow, that's something. Gotta say, not impressed with BL there, especially Laurie Goulding. Hell, not particularly happy with Chris Wraight for putting it in in the first place. Dragonlover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 See thats the thing, in hind sight, you COULD have implied that it was Fabius and maybe the corruption/modification had started earlier, that certainly would fit with how BL/FW has approached a few legions (Night Lord from Terra? You already came from a hell hole, just like those that came later). For Goulding to full on 'confirm' the intent, is really just in poor taste, and does NOT fit with the setting as established by others, or the feel of 30K where there is no reason whatsoever for homosexuality to be an issue of note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Eh. Doesn't bother me at all. As a veteran, I can tell you that they're pretty common amongst soldiers. It's one of those things that we in the militant profession don't take as seriously (on average) as civilians. Personally, I think it's fairly in keeping with not only the usual jibes between soldiers, but also the kind of snarky crap that passes between siblings. I should know, I have an older brother, and we trade underhanded barbs like that all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Yeah, I mean honestly, the fascist route would have only worked if it had "always been that way" because you could at least throw it as "Imperium of Man suffers few if any impurities". But lately it seems like they've fallen into the hole of political correctness and in an effort to still appear "that way" while compromising for appeasing modern social values, they've severely tripped themselves up. Like when it first started, it was "persecute all religion, regardless of whether or not it actually is religion." But now we're at the point "Persecute all religion unless it doesn't interfere with the Great Crusade." Which is worthless since some of history's bloodiest moments were the Crusades and other religious persecutions so if we're at the point "as long as it helps and is not Chaos" then why not simply create political propaganda to get the newly conquered natives to Crusade/Jihaad for the Imperium? Most of them are primitive enough that they'd believe the Emperor is their God anyways. That's why the Lectitio spread so quickly. I don't know. BL is doing a decent job building the war part background, with very few inconsistencies and most of those being how we viewed the previous material versus how they are writing the new material, but as for the political and societal idiosyncrasies, they're tripping worse than Bulk and Skull. Eh. Doesn't bother me at all. As a veteran, I can tell you that they're pretty common amongst soldiers. It's one of those things that we in the militant profession don't take as seriously (on average) as civilians. Personally, I think it's fairly in keeping with not only the usual jibes between soldiers, but also the kind of snarky crap that passes between siblings. I should know, I have an older brother, and we trade underhanded barbs like that all the time.I don't think its necessarily that, as for me personally, I wouldn't care. I've met very few guys who don't tolerate gay jokes and most of them are just straight guys who don't like the "bend over" jokes because they like wearing their pants around their knees. I think its more like the explanation is really poor since its "the setting" but the setting runs contrary to that excuse. Or maybe that's why I personally have a problem with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Yeah, I agree with Kol, its a weak explanation for a weak comment, that runs counter to a number of other things. Having those kinds of comments 'common' in segments of society is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Yeah, I agree with Kol, its a weak explanation for a weak comment, that runs counter to a number of other things. Having those kinds of comments 'common' in segments of society is irrelevant. It's relevant if its truthful to the subculture being displayed. If I wrote a book about a bunch of soldiers and they never insulted each other, playfully or not, it would feel flat. Because that's not how soldiers behave. Primarchs might be genetically engineered super-humans, but they're still soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Yeah, I agree with Kol, its a weak explanation for a weak comment, that runs counter to a number of other things. Having those kinds of comments 'common' in segments of society is irrelevant. It's relevant if its truthful to the subculture being displayed. If I wrote a book about a bunch of soldiers and they never insulted each other, playfully or not, it would feel flat. Because that's not how soldiers behave. Primarchs might be genetically engineered super-humans, but they're still soldiers. You're making a case nobody is arguing against. Nobody has a problem with brothers ribbing each other (which this scene was about, more than that of fellow soldiers, but the distinction is irrelevant in this circumstance), the problem is that something that could have been easily played off as such, is instead being shown to be something else entirely. A childish "pull my finger" jab. Not brothers/soldiers skirting the edge of political correctness in their familiarity with each other. The editor told us that instead, the Khan was blowing raspberries at Fulgrim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Yeah, I agree with Kol, its a weak explanation for a weak comment, that runs counter to a number of other things. Having those kinds of comments 'common' in segments of society is irrelevant. It's relevant if its truthful to the subculture being displayed. If I wrote a book about a bunch of soldiers and they never insulted each other, playfully or not, it would feel flat. Because that's not how soldiers behave. Primarchs might be genetically engineered super-humans, but they're still soldiers. I take issue with saying the Primarchs, and one which the book show's to be outside the norm such as the Khan, being that basic. Legion vs Legion talk between Astartes? No problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 they're tripping worse than Bulk and Skull. +1000000 internet points for a correctly used Super Ted reference. As for the gay joke, I took it as a reference to the experiments Fabius Bile was doing and regardless of what Laurie Golding says will continue to think of it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 It just seems odd that on the one hand, Khan goes on and on about how cultured and civilized he and his Legion are, and then he responds to Fulgrim...actually not being all that insulting, at least as words read off a printed page, with "HOMO HOMO HOMO!" Unless that's another of those refined Chogoris customs that only superficially resembles barbaric stupidity. To say nothing of the bit where he responds to Fulgrim offering to spar him with "I would 100% beyond any shadow of a doubt kick your butt so bad it would make the Emperor cry" (this after internally monologuing about how Fulgrim's pride is a flaw, pot, kettle much?) and when Sanguinus tells them both to stop being stupid he sulks because he feels left out of the other Primarchs close fraternity. Psssst. Khan. Maybe if you tried not acting like a complete prick every time you guys all get together, you'd have more friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I've got no problem with boasts from a Primarch ready to back them up. Its not pride, or cockiness, its confidence. The fact he hedges his bets against Mortarion (despite it being foreshadowing) should show that its more than just false pride, but an honest assessment of his abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlover Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 It just seems odd that on the one hand, Khan goes on and on about how cultured and civilized he and his Legion are, and then he responds to Fulgrim...actually not being all that insulting, at least as words read off a printed page, with "HOMO HOMO HOMO!" This. It bugs me on a bunch of levels, from a real world and in setting perspective, and to top it off it makes no bloody sense. So far the Primarchs have demonstrated no sexuality in any direction, so to have the first mention of it be an insulting allusion to homosexuality is both crass and irrelevant. As for Laurie's post on that other forum... But anyway, the rest of the book. Loved it. I thought the conversation between Khan and Magnus was awesome, I enjoy the moments when some of the metaphysical aspects of the Primarch backgrounds get explored. I also now want to know who or what made it so Fulgrim and the Khan landed on the wrong planets. As for the Mortarion fight... glorious. That's how you write a Primarch on Primarch fight. Dragonlover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I don't think the gay joke fits. As what is being talked about is modifying starships. Reguardless of what Mr Goulding says. Fulgrim - I heard you do strang things to your ships... Khan - You gay. It is far more of a potential continuity issue and Mr Goulding just wanted to nip it in the bud. The gay joke doesn't really fit. Even if it was a continuity issue, it is not a bad one. Because we really don't know when Fabius started his experiments. It would be far more interesting if Fulgrim forced Fabius more underground because of the Khan's comment. You can't let rumors persist about genetic testing/modification on Astartes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Or if it had just been a glimpse into how Fabius' experiments were just an extreme continuation of a pre-existing practice among the III Legion. It could have so very easily been played off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Yeah, the only continuity issue would be that Fulgrim's involvements in the experiments began after Ullanor, but that coul have been workable. Even if it was just a friendly jibe between brothers, it would have been manageable. But instead its "The Khan is ribbing his brother according to the culture of the time" which doesn't fit because the culture has been shown to be rather lenient in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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