codex crimson slaughter.... yup, GW really hates us.

[notsoevil]

Quite frankly for me it just comes down to CSM not coming anywhere close to how they're portrayed in the novels.  This codex is bland. I don't care about the power-level (hell, I won't even go NEAR a tournament), it's just not as exciting and varied as it should have been.

 

And though they don't have ATSKNF, dammit, they should at least be fearless.

[Noctus Cornix]

In turn, I find it sad that you are implying things that I never said. I don't approve of Legion rules. I don't think it belongs in the codex, and I find it to be utterly pointless. Period. That is all I ever said.

 

Does that mean I support the current codex? Absolutely not. It's bland, its boring, and it lacks variety. Legion rules, whether I agree with it or not, would be like putting a bandaid over a slit stomach with your intestines dripping out. It will make you feel better for a few minutes in your head and then you'll find something else to complain about. The variety intended for the faction comes from the Gods. That is what makes Chaos, the Chaos Gods. I give the 3.5 codex credit for atleast that in there was a host of options for the Gods and daemonic abilities, not the shoehorned Legion rules. A good Chaos Space Marines codex needs to be about Chaos, more variety and depth of connection to the Chaos Gods, opportunities to delve into Lesser Deities and demons for those who want to remain undivided, Alterations and abilities that promote the occult religion or ancient warrior pantheon, more powerful Chaos Space Marines and sense of actual power that has been bestowed upon you by the Dark Gods.

 

 

The Crimson Slaughter Supplement Codex is coming out and its shaping up from the rumors to be pretty stellar and a step up... And all you people can do is complain about how its not a Legion. I mean seriously, before you even open the thread, you can already see the childish complaint "yup, GW hates us." on the bloody title. This is a Chaos Warband GW is trying to promote for Chaos Space Marines, not Legion Space Marines.  This is utterly pitiful.

[Rain]

Yeah but it's a silly faction almost nobody asked for that they just pulled out of their warp holes for the Dark Vengeance boxed set. Even the name is silly, who the hell would name themselves "The Crimson Slaughter"? It smacks of Saturday morning cartoon villain "let no good deed go unpunished let no evil deed go unrewarded" crap. As for the rules, well it's a supplement so it's not going to fix any core issues either way, it's just that people would have prefered more fluff and minor options for a faction that have already been playing and that has a history and not "Generic Evil Marine Band XYZ"

[Hellrender]

I think the last couple of replies have not been so much about how its not a legion.. that was on the first few pages. I personally dont care much for whatever name they place on it. Most of the fluff i can find on google anyways. I would like to see clarification in the complete rulebook that Abbaddon and chaos in general is much more dangerous then they now appear, as all that gets told is that they lose each crusade. A bit new lore on a warband can be interresting, if done right. And to be fair, it does shape up to be rather interresting.

The biggest problem, these last few pages, is that the codex is bland. The cool stuff takes 1/3rd of your points, and the good stuff needs to be spammed. Most units can only be run in 1 or 2 ways, and nothing that can make them slightly better in a way, or in a way to modify your tactics. Wether you call that legion rules, warband rules or chapter traits, it doesnt matter. It needs to come, or just a good old cost decrease compared to loyalist, which get the Traits, ATSNKF and combat tactics, plus whatever special characters can bring (Think about Khan or Pedro), for barely a point more. Hack, compare ANY unit to its chaos version and you see a big big difference. And then you compare the fluffy units Possessed vs Honour Guard/command squad, Chosen vs Veterans etc. And you will see. All will see.

[Scribe]

@noctus,

 

At that same time, its Codex: Chaos Space Marines, who's origin myth/legend/reality, is based in the Great Crusade, and the First Founding. I get what your saying, and I've argued that Codex: CSM needs to be blown up, but there is no reason we cannot have both satisfied. 

[Trevak Dal]

Why choose a rather unknown warband?

 

This is the way I see GW looking at it.

 

GW: Chaos is warbands. Not legions. Legions are dead, you are playing the bitter corpse of them. All warbands all the time. Wanna know how much I mean it, here is Crimson Slaughter supplement.

 

Fan: But I want Legions!

 

GW: Valued customer may I direct you to Forge World Horus Heresy Books. I take it you like Legions. Well 30k is all legions all the time.

 

Fan: But I want to play a legion in 40k!

 

GW: No problem valued customer, simply ask permission to play your mates orks vs a legion list.

 

Fan: But, but...

 

GW: You weren't playing games more serious then beer and pretzel games with your friends were you?

 

Fan: Maybe?

 

GW: I am disappointed in you. 

 

---

 

So yeah FW gets legions (because FW seems more in touch with what interests fans) and I suspect its selling like hotcakes and GW has decided to push more towards the newbs with a starter warband supplement. To essentially not cannibalize good ol FW sales.

 

Honestly I'm not even that fussed. Crimson Slaughter seems ok as a faction. Also the Chaos vs Space marines is like Coke vs Pepsi (ultras) colour coded now. 

 

You have yourself to blame, you should of lost interest in Chaos codex 4th edition. Or even the latest one, which continued the tradition. I know I did. 

 

The World Eater legion rules kinda suck :cuss.  (there I said it, Goddamn it).  I want world eaters/Khorne to be to close combat, what Tau are to shooting.

[Dread]

New? Well I think they need to help the others, Iron warriors, NIGHTLORDS (easy fix, make raptors troop choices).

[Trevak Dal]

 

Legion traits would make people happy. A lot of people. You don't have to use the trait. But you can. Easy enough. Even if it is just night vision for Night Lords. I've seen this discussion a million times and I know what your saying ADB, but traits would be cool. It wouldn't capture the complete blah blah of this legion and its varied warbands but who cares.

 

 

People who... like the lore? People who like the game? What you're literally saying is we should aim as low as possible and consider it awesome.

 

With due respect sir, I'd say it already aims as low as possible.

[daboarder]

And still misses

[Trevak Dal]

So help me, if GeeDub releases (re-releases?) Blood Angels and they have Assault/open topped rhinos "To be different", I'll put this Codex through a shredder, sell my Daemon Prince and Defiler and DV Meltabrute and Cultists and go there faster than you can say "Nanuke Waffe".

 

I want an army that's as good in close combat as my Tau are in shooting.  End of LIne.  I can more easily vent my unyielding rage/hate/fury/spite with my Enclave army (with 18 Crisis suits, 12 Stealth Suits 1 Riptide, 6 broadsides, and 3 Hazard suits) than I can with my Chaos Space Marines and that feels conceptually wrong to me.

 

I'm hoping the stuff about...mysteriously, many of the things we've been wanting (Arty armor equivalent, etc) isn't some douche trolling us (Probably is, just like the new CSM sprue was)

 

I get by with my CSMs, and I really like my All Beserker army as it's developing.  The thing that makes the corner of my eye twitch is that a Khorne Beserker is an Assault Marine (1 attack base, +1 for being double armed) when he's not charging (fearless, furious charge and WS 5 too but seriously...)

 

Boo-Urns.  If I'm paying 19 points for a guy, he'd better have more than 1 attack base +1 for being double armed.  2 base + 1 for being double armed, options for either taking Chainaxes-or extra bolt pistols (for making use of Gunslinger and still having +1 attack)

 

Now, I think Cult Beserkers should be -1 BS (the one thing they did do right with Plague Marines).  

 

I think Ksons need to have a We'll be back type rule where so long as the Aspiring Sorcerer is alive, they can stand back up, and the Sorcerer needs a hammer-hand type power that boosts the strength and ap of their bolters.  Ruberics should be i1, 1 attack each.

 

I think Plagues are okay...and where I got the inspiration for stat up-stat down.

 

I think Noise Marines should have a higher BS and lower weapon skill, or maybe start off with Twinlinked bolters and bolt pistols, and can upgrade to Sonic weapons.

 

Everyone Not Ruberics gets 2 attacks base (Champions get 3 attacks base).

 

You could tack those traits to any unit in the book if you wanted to run a entirely Cult army.  It'd be more expensive than just running an equivalent marked army-but would be 'better'. 

[Vassius]

For me, this "legions are dead, there are only warbands" is an lame excuse.
An excuse for this codex, which is again an epic fail. And for the supplements.

If I want to play a warband, I can´t even do that. Chaos Marines are 13 pionts each and for that they come only with a bolter and a bolt pistol plus some grenades.
Oh, an only leadership 8, which ist one point more than a imperial guardsman.
So tell me, how does this represent Chaos Warbands ?

These Marines live in the Eye of Terror, they fight so many enemys, they face hostile ailiens and evil warp based deamons.
And GW tells me, they have only a boltgun and a pistol ? Not even a bloody close combat weapon, like a combat knife ? Really ?
That is so lame, I mean, they live in constant danger of being killed in combat and they don´t have learned from this, to be prepared at all times ?
With as many weapons they can get their hand on ?
(I was once in the army, and I usullay left the base with a minimum of 4 weapons: assault rifle, pistol, combat knife and a folding shovel.
And so it was with my soldiers. So we had more weapons than a chaos marine ? GW, blame on you)

And as they all have faced death a thousand times, so they are poor weaklings like the imperial guardsman.
Yeah that makes sense. I mean, these chaos marines warbands can withstand the terror, that is all around them.
Deamons, aliens and so on. They live in a place, which seems to be a hell and face dangers every day.
But when they are in combat on a battlefield and they lose 25 % of their squad, then they have to take a morale check.
It´s like: "Oh, these 12 blood deamons are so cool. An Angron, yeah, really my buddy. I´m Chaos !" and "Oh, these guardsman have killed 3 of my mates,
damn, should I attack them and show them the might of chaos or schould I go panic ? Hm, panic is a good idea."

It´s the same thing with all their war gear.
"He techmarine, we are now a chaos warband. So you have to destroy all these dop pods. And razorbacks. Don´t forget the Landraiders.
But leave the phobos pattern, that seems pretty cool. "
"Yes my lord, what is with the Storm Talons, Storm Ravens, venerable cybots, whirlwinds and Land speeders ?"
"Destroy them all or send them back to the mechanicus guys, with best regards from the crimson sabres. We are chaos now, we only need rhinos
and dinobots, provided by the dark mechanicum."
"So no more drop pod assaults ? No change in the art of warfare ? "
"No, we do it like the other chaos guys. Only rhinos and raiders, we are all the same warbands. We are not like the moron loyalists,
we drive into the enemy lines with our tanks, thats the only tactics we need. And a last point, collect all combat knives on the ship
and forge them onto a single thron, so I can sit on them. Seems pretty cool to me."

I think you guys get the point, we can´t even play a warband. If we want to keep up with the loyalists or the xenos, we have to play cultists,
a durable lord, some hell turkeys and dinobots.
If I play against tyranids, tau oder eldar, I cant even use Chaos marines, cause the suck so bad.

In my opinion, GW should take the head of the sand and look around. They should look at other games and see, what other companies
or authors do. And then they should let themselves inspired by these look around.
Games like Dawn of War:Elite Mod, Starcarft 1 & 2, Chaos in the old world, Arkham Horror, The complete Fallout series, Doom 3, Rage, Painkiller,
F.E.A.R, Knights of the old republic 1 & 2. And there is so much more, games like infinty, warmachine/hordes, Fire Storm Armada, X-Wing and so on.
And they should read more books, like the stories of H.P. Lovecraft, man the world is full of books, games and movies/series.
So much creativity, so much inspiring things.

But all we hear is a lame excuse, legions are dead, legion traits don´t represent the legions or the background.
It´s all about warbands and they differ and so on.
For me, this is only a excuse for being lazy. If GW would really care about chaos, they had done it better. Much better.
There is no reason why we can´t have plague terminators. Or berseker terminators.
Or why we can´t build sonic weapons on our Predators.
If chaos were only warbands, then the codex should have a massive amount of options to create your own warband.
Like a sandbox, so that no warband is the same. Because every little warlord has its own art of war and would use
any trick, weapon or wargear to kill the enemy.

But in fact, all chaos armies are the same. Khornelord on Juggernaut, chaos spawns, hell turkeys, dinobots.
And that is the epic fail of GW. The have lost their vision.
For me, a codex should offer me the possibility to play my army in multiple different ways/builds.
Ways, which in fact should be differ in the art of war and the troops I choose.
Why ? Cause there are enough games out there, that you can play in a different way, maybe not every way is succsessful, but rather fun to play.
But as I said. GW and all the people their have lost their vision.
Warhammer 40.000 is more than Space Marine Traits or Chaos Legions of the old.
Once:In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war !
Now: In the grim darkness of the grim darkness there is only grim darkness...

Only time will tell, if GW is moving in the right direction. But for now, it seems to me, they have lost their direction.

[crimsonhand]

Face it, if you want LEGIONS, you need to be playing 30k. 

[Sception]

I do have to say that what characterization I've seen from the new crimson sons book is how I want chaos marines in general to be characterized in the 40k era, especially the survivors of the heresy era legions who have tread furthest down the path of damnation, and the lack of such supernatural elements in the fluff and depictions of the heresy era legions is why I don't, for example, find 30k stuff to be a suitable substitute for depictions of 40k chaos marines, whether in terms of rules or fluff.

 

That there's more actual chaos to the depiction of these recent renegades than there is to basically any 40k era depiction of the traitor legions to me points at least as much to the failings of the depictions of the traitor legions in 40k as it does to the quality of the chrimson slaughter fluff.

[Dravenguild]

I do have to say that what characterization I've seen from the new crimson sons book is how I want chaos marines in general to be characterized in the 40k era, especially the survivors of the heresy era legions who have tread furthest down the path of damnation, and the lack of such supernatural elements in the fluff and depicti ons of the heresy era legions is why I don't, for example, find 30k stuff to be a suitable substitute for depictions of 40k chaos marines, whether in terms of rules or fluff.

 

That there's more actual chaos to the depiction of these recent renegades than there is to basically any 40k era depiction of the traitor legions to me points at least as much to the failings of the depictions of the traitor legions in 40k as it does to the quality of the chrimson slaughter fluff.

 

Not every chaos marine warband or legionnaire remnant group is going to be affected by the same things as others, time flows differently and there are different worlds with different exposures, some are more willing to accept chaos and some aren't.

 

I wouldn't mind your ideas but you're trying to paint every chaos marine under the same brush and say they should all be depicted as mutated twisted abominations resembling beasts.

 

When we know that several of the remnants of the legions do not follow chaos in this manner, as well as the majority of the renegades not being around long enough to warp so drastically.

[Brother Ambroz]

In turn, I find it sad that you are implying things that I never said. I don't approve of Legion rules. I don't think it belongs in the codex, and I find it to be utterly pointless. Period. That is all I ever said.

 

Does that mean I support the current codex? Absolutely not. It's bland, its boring, and it lacks variety. Legion rules, whether I agree with it or not, would be like putting a bandaid over a slit stomach with your intestines dripping out. It will make you feel better for a few minutes in your head and then you'll find something else to complain about. The variety intended for the faction comes from the Gods. That is what makes Chaos, the Chaos Gods. I give the 3.5 codex credit for atleast that in there was a host of options for the Gods and daemonic abilities, not the shoehorned Legion rules. A good Chaos Space Marines codex needs to be about Chaos, more variety and depth of connection to the Chaos Gods, opportunities to delve into Lesser Deities and demons for those who want to remain undivided, Alterations and abilities that promote the occult religion or ancient warrior pantheon, more powerful Chaos Space Marines and sense of actual power that has been bestowed upon you by the Dark Gods.

 

 

The Crimson Slaughter Supplement Codex is coming out and its shaping up from the rumors to be pretty stellar and a step up... And all you people can do is complain about how its not a Legion. I mean seriously, before you even open the thread, you can already see the childish complaint "yup, GW hates us." on the bloody title. This is a Chaos Warband GW is trying to promote for Chaos Space Marines, not Legion Space Marines.  This is utterly pitiful.

Weren't all the lesser deities retconned a short time ago? Pretty sure they were.

 

So basically noctus you would rather have ways to represent all different flavors worshipping the gods? Are you saying you don't want any way to differentiate between warbands other than which god they worship?

 

I really think a lot of people who dislike 3.5 get too shoehorned by the legion rules. Again, no offense to anyone but a lot of the time the people who dislike it had never played it. Forget the legion rules in that codex for a second and look at everything else, the COMPLETE customization of your lord/sorcerer/prince, chosen worthy of their title and veteran skills to represent whatever origin your marines hail from. I could care less about legion rules if we could get these back, the veteran skills alone would allow me to customize my warband with members from different legions/chapters/whatever.

[Sception]

some are more willing to accept chaos and some aren't.

 

The power of the gods isn't psychosomatic. Willingness to accept it shouldn't make a difference.

 

I wouldn't mind your ideas but you're trying to paint every chaos marine under the same brush and say they should all be depicted as mutated twisted abominations resembling beasts.

 

Pretty much. Monstrous & supernatural in some sense, yeah.

 

When we know that several of the remnants of the legions do not follow chaos in this manner

 

The manner in which they follow shouldn't matter. Disbelief in radiation is no protection from cancer due to exposure.

 

as well as the majority of the renegades not being around long enough to warp so drastically.

 

Which is why I find it annoying that one of the most properly chaotic depictions of chaos marines I've seen from GW has been lavished upon one of the most recent renegade factions, while so many depictions of ancient chaos veterans are just regular dudes in spikey armor.

 

I'm not saying such depictions don't exist, just that I don't like them, and that I don't like that these recent upstarts get to be proper chaos marines when we get depictions of, say, Iron Warriors or Night lords, as, again, just grumpy old men with some pointy bits duct taped to their power armor.

[Noctus Cornix]

 

 

Weren't all the lesser deities retconned a short time ago? Pretty sure they were.

Yes, they were to a degree. Its one of the things I would have liked to see come back, never said it would.

 

So basically noctus you would rather have ways to represent all different flavors worshipping the gods? Are you saying you don't want any way to differentiate between warbands other than which god they worship?

For the most part, if you're going to whittle everything I said down into the most basic way possible, yes. You want a particular warband, then you are free to customize and tool your army to however it pleases your warlord, but in the end it should come down to the Chaos Gods because that's where your power comes from. Whether you want to believe it or not, that's what GW wants to do with Chaos and they're not wrong in doing so, just seem to shoot themselves in the foot rather than the target in terms of execution. That's 5 different radical army options with a host sub-options and list opportunities that can be stemmed from it. That is of course dependent on the Codex itself which is utterly pitiful in this regard and makes little attempt to actually do what they evidently wanted to do.  

 

I really think a lot of people who dislike 3.5 get too shoehorned by the legion rules. Again, no offense to anyone but a lot of the time the people who dislike it had never played it. Forget the legion rules in that codex for a second and look at everything else, the COMPLETE customization of your lord/sorcerer/prince, chosen worthy of their title and veteran skills to represent whatever origin your marines hail from. I could care less about legion rules if we could get these back, the veteran skills alone would allow me to customize my warband with members from different legions/chapters/whatever.

 

Yes, well I started Chaos in 3.5 and I tried just about everything I could so that doesn't really work with me. But honestly, I wouldn't be too far against that. Just a blank slate of options without saying 'oh this is for World Eaters'. That way, you don't disassociate the myriad of other Warbands and you don't have to deal with the Legion junk being solidified.

[Rain]

@ malisteen Yeah but just because you don't like them doesn't mean that other people that do like them (that is, depictions of less corrupted Chaos Marines) shouldn't be allowed to build their army that way and still have a varied and somewhat viable army that represents their faction. Also, your radiation comparison is flawed because whereas radiation is physical rays or particles that ionize the physical particles in your body which kills you irrespective of what you know or believe, the warp is an innately spiritual and mental space, that yes, will have some effect on everyone, but only because no one can fully resist the whispers and mind altering visions.

 

Point is, belief has a HUGE part to play in how much the warp affects you, because the warp is not a physical realm, it's almost like a demonic Matrix, and even though there is no spoon, the spoon will probably try to eat you.  Remember that emotion and belief are the fuel of the Gods, and worship invites their patronage, and their gifts. Also, and this is kind of a meta point, but a lot of Chaos players like the less corrupted evil/bitter/sadistic Space Marines bit, and while I agree that you should have your options to play crazy tentacle monsters from space, I just want my option to play grumpy old men trying to get the shiny blue armored kids off their lawn.

 

Actually on that point, to me the move toward more possessed monsters etc. is just further indicative of game/fluff writers not really being fans of Chaos because it further dehumanizes the faction and turns us into evil freaky monsters instead of individuals with their own (albeit twisted) goals and agendas. Even the Tyranids, the very face of inhuman unthinking beasts are actually controlled by an extremely intelligent and calculating hive mind while Chaos Marines are apparently all running around yelling "Kill for the sake of killing! Let no evil deed go unrewarded! BLARHAFHAFHAAG" Yay, we get to be Power Rangers villains.

[Sception]

 

Weren't all the lesser deities retconned a short time ago? Pretty sure they were.

Yes, they were to a degree. Its one of the things I would have liked to see come back, never said it would.

 

Yeah, reducing all of chaos to just the big four remains, in my mind, the poorest decision GW has ever made in the handling of chaos lore.

[Brother Ambroz]

I wouldn't mind seeing them come back too. There were a few really interesting and cool deities they did away with.

 

When people post large paragraphs like that I usually try to sum it up, so yeah. That being said, when you put it like that I kinda like that idea. Still though, some warbands or warriors within certain warbands try not to associate with the gods, so there still should be a way to represent certain skills they would've acquired in other ways.

 

I think veteran skills is the way to go to represent chaos marines, that and purchasable gifts to allow the most customization possible. Unfortunately though GW doesn't seem to agree.

[cgaolol]

This thread has deviated a little.

 

I guess I'm in the minority in that I look forward to this release.  Then again, I just got into this hobby in 6th edition, though I am familiar with chaos since 4th (owned the codex and some models but never played).  I guess as a newcomer the Crimson Slaughter appeals to me much more than to other people.

[daboarder]

Im looking forward to it actually.

 

Ive kinda changed my mind. I still cant fathom why its not word bearers because we dont actually have all that much info on what they are doi g in 40k. Remember black legion fleshed them out its only far the legion WARBANDS get the same treatment. Id have loved to hear about kor phaeron erebus and other members of the council. Maybe a nod to marduk as well.

 

All that aside the key issue is that we are getting a variation in how to play our very bland and boring list.Im thinking less crimson slaughter and more possesed warband list

[Sception]

The crimson slaughter book has grown on me.  While I care absolutely nothing for the slaughter itself, they seem to be portrayed in the manner that I prefer 40k chaos marines to be portrayed in, and I like possessed conceptually, so if they actually make troop possessed playable, then I would totally be down with using those rules to represent a Black Legion warband like the forsaken (an all possessed warband briefly described in the black legion book).

 

But since the book is priced as a full codex, and I don't care about the slaughter as its own thing, and don't expect them to make an all possessed army or even an army that heavily features possessed functional, even if they make it possible, I don't think I'm going to be able to justify actually getting it.

 

I'm not bitter about it existing anymore, even if I still think a supplement about one of the legions, or even a particular warband decended from one of the legions, would have been an infinitely more sensible choice, but I doubt I'll actually buy it, unless I start hearing some pretty stellar reviews of what few shreds of rules the book deigns to include.  Likewise, I love the new brute, but don't think I can justify the cost for a pure display model, which is what it would be for me under the current rules.

 

 

Which leaves me hoping we might see the rumored chosen in the following week, though it's more of a long shot with each passing day.  As a black legion player & Cypher fan, that's a purchase I could actually justify to myself.  Chosen may not be good, but within the confines of the Black Legion supplement or the Fallen dataslate - both products I've already purchased - they're at least functional, which is more than I can say for hellbrutes or possessed (troops or otherwise) right now.

[Scribe]

As someone who deeply does not want to put money in GW's CSM bucket, multi-part chosen in the DV style would be gut wrenching to resist.

[Phoros]

See, I've long been a proponent of the idea of, in essence, purchasable "warband tactics" as a unit-by-unit thing. Don't tie them to any one warband, and don't make it so that you have to buy it for the whole army - give people the ability to customise their units. It'd make them distinct from Loyalist chapter tactics, provide the ability to make them into stereotypical "Legion armies" (without stuff like extra heavy support slots and "Iron Warriors can't take marks ever!", which are kind of bad ideas anyway), and would better represent how Chaos forces tend to be less of a cohesive whole.