Heavy Flamers! A Sisters best friend!

[Da Taz]

Talking about the best weapon for sisters got me to thinking! Now we all know that a Sisters squad can take a heavy bolter, mulit-melta or a heavy flamer. Now with the first two you get more range (both), shots(heavy bolter) and higher str(multi-Melta). But, lets look at the heavy flamer. While it doesn't have range or str along with shots it does have some very nice things going for it. First of all it removes cover saves! Second it is an assault weapon so you can move and shot. Third it can hit a lot of targets! While each of the weapons has some nice things going for it I still like the heavy flamer so much more for sisters. The no cover save, large amount of targets you can hit, along with move and shot and str 5 ap 4 make it so nice to take!

 

Now take the others. The heavy bolter is good at shooting at longer range, has three shots and same str and ap. However, if you move, guess what snap-shot! And the most you can hit is three! With the multi-melta you get a longer range, although not as much as a heavy bolter, very good tank killing or any other killing you need, but again if you move, yep snap-shot, plus you can only hit one target and anyone with a tank will want you dead fast! Or even quicker!

 

So as you can see why I take heavy flamers for each sisters squad! While it is nice to have a longer range and far better tank killing, the fact of the matter is that heavy bolters do better in a support roll where you can take four of them and really put out the firepower, Multi-meltas do better in the command squad where they can move as needed and just hunt tanks. Plus with the medic and cannoness they stay alive longer. But, for just the regular squad, heavy flamers are the better choice, especially if you are facing lots of models with low armor or toughness!  

[WarriorFish]

It's a template heavy bolter that ignores cover - what more could you ask for? As much as I love the HF it does depend on your meta somewhat as to whether the upgrade over a normal flamer is worth it, but the ability to flood the board with them if you so wish can be terrifying for many armies.

Remember: xenos are best served well done :P

[Da Taz]

But, with what wine? A red or white?

[*Furyou Miko]

Depends, but most common xenos are best served with white - Eldar, Ork and Tau - while I suspect that Tyranids are better with a nice, robust red.

[Fibonacci]

I prefer a nut brown ale.

[Naminé]

Squats were the tastiest of all, apparently...

[Hellios]

It's a template heavy bolter that ignores cover - what more could you ask for? 

 

Rending?

[greggles]

The heavy flamer, and flamer edge out vs the other choices (for a single selection at least), due to the automatic D3 overwatch hits per flamer. Because the last thing you want is sisters in close combat*...having anything that could prevent that from happening is a emperor send.

 

My general config is usually hvy flamer, melta (or flamer) in a immolator with TL-MM.

 

*=baring a giant massive point sink tarpit blob with priests.

[march10k]

 

 

My general config is usually hvy flamer, melta (or flamer) in a immolator with TL-MM.

 

The only problem here is the tiny squad size. Pop that AV11 vehicle, which you're highly motivated to do anyway, because of the TLMM, and wiping the sisters inside is actually fairly easy.  I prefer HF, melta, and because I take squads of ten, a simalcrum to get that tasty second shot of preferred enemy (which would not make sense if I only had demi-squads, but it's worth the ten points when I've got 10 sisters benefiting), in a rhino, with at least half of my rhinos sporting laud hailers.  As you can see, my list is very sisters-centric.  Dominion-spam might be more effective in a straight VP game, but since objectives are critical to most games...and immolators just don't work for me because they simultaneously restrict me to an unworkable squad size AND give the enemy an additional really great reason to blow up my transports.  

 

The way I see it, immolators draw fire away from exorcists, which is bad because you have an AV11 vehicle acting as decoy for an AV13 one.  On the other hand, the lowly rhino has fire drawn away from it by exorcists, which is fantastic because the exorcists usually aren't scoring, and they're AV13, at least on the front, so they can take a little more pain than a rhino.  99% of the time, I want the enemy shooting at "anything but my scoring units' transports"

[*Furyou Miko]

I like to include Immolators as a kind of extra heavy weapon to accompany larger squads of Sisters, especially in games of 500 points or so.

[march10k]

I suppose in a 500 point game, an AV11 "tank" isn't bad.  There won't be much in the way of enemy antitank fire to worry about...

[greggles]

 

The only problem here is the tiny squad size. Pop that AV11 vehicle, which you're highly motivated to do anyway, because of the TLMM, and wiping the sisters inside is actually fairly easy.

 

Yes, but it's a bit more of an issue when there is 6 of them...and multiple exorcists, dominions outflanking in immolators, and seraphim deep striking in your face.  Make target priority an issue, and the survivability of the immolators goes way up.

 

Don't forget they also have a 6++ and a 5+ deny the witch!.  (Better then nothing!).

 

For an increase in survivability, just use the immolators as repressors.

[march10k]

yes, I'm familiar with the concept of spam. But don't kid yourself. Nobody's shooting at your exorcists when you're spamming immolators. you don't want AV11 vehicles that are more threatening than your AV13 vehicles. That doesn't complicate target priority, it simplifies it. ditto the outflanking immolators, they're not even on the target list at first. You end up with your non-dominion immolators sucking up all of the enemy's antitank fire on turn one. I have a hard time imagining that going well for you. Then the outflanking ones trickle in randomly to be picked off, and they come in on the wrong board edge 1/3 of the time. The exorcists only get shot if they expose a flank or there are no more mobile multimeltas on the board at the moment. Rhinos are not only cheaper, they hold more troops, and they're less threatening, so the enemy's antitank fire goes against AV13, not AV11.

 

Repressors are...ok. Getting closer to the enemy exposes the flanks a lot mors than an exorcist has to (I would know, I spam chimeras, AV 12 front rarely matters on the enemy side of the board!), and they're horribly expensive for what they do. I only really use them in cityfight, where buildings to screen their crap side armor are plentiful (and they're fluffy in cityfight!)

 

immolators, like razorbacks, fail for me because they don't fit neatly into the category of transport (not enough room for ten models) or light tank (needs AV12)

[greggles]

march,

Though I do agree with you on the immolators being an easy high importance target...i disagree that the rhinos are any less of a threat. A rhino is still a mobile bunker, capable of firing it's own MM/melta out the top hatch. It sees the same priority target as the immolator does (in my experience).

 

The immolator isn't really that much more expensive then a rhino. It's basically the cost of a twin linked multi-melta (over a rhino). There really isn't a tax past the actual weapon cost.

 

Sure you have smaller squad sizes, but that is the main advantage of sisters anyway. Two specials, or one heavy, one special in a group of 5 sisters.

 

That's just my opinion!

[march10k]

 

A rhino is still a mobile bunker, capable of firing it's own MM/melta out the top hatch. It sees the same priority target as the immolator does (in my experience).

That's probably true...at least in your meta.  There is the psychological factor of the turret, versus "pshaw, it's just a dinky rhino," though.  Anyway, that presupposes that you're giving the mounted unit a MM/melta (I do give mine a melta), and then it's still not twinlinked.  

 

 

The immolator isn't really that much more expensive then a rhino. It's basically the cost of a twin linked multi-melta (over a rhino). There really isn't a tax past the actual weapon cost.

 

...except for the troops capacity and the lack of a fire port, you mean?  Not being able to hold ten models is huge for me.

 

 

Sure you have smaller squad sizes, but that is the main advantage of sisters anyway. Two specials, or one heavy, one special in a group of 5 sisters.

 

That's true in a small game, it lets you pack in the melta/flame weaponry, but in a larger game, not being able to spam more than six of those five man squads outweighs the advantage of the weapons density.  Smaller squads also benefit less from preferred enemy, certainly don't justify the inclusion of a simalcrum, and give up stupid amounts of kill points with ridiculous ease.  Three ten man squads are marginally more likely to survive long enough to hold an objective at the end of the game than six five man squads, and they are not only less likely to surrender a kill point, they have fewer of them at risk.  Of course, I field forty battle sisters, so I wouldn't be able  to do fives in the first place, lol.

[MomentoMori]

March

 

Ok for the past week or two I've been standing back trying my hardest not to say anything but I really can't. Your logic against immolators with 5 sister squads is pretty fail. Not only pretty fail but you make it a point to spread this logic on almost every post and thread you enter upon. And when you actually try to contribute with a list. The list just plain fails. The only other thing you have contributed was keeping a conversation going about how fantasy is better then 40k on a sisters thread. Please stop.

 

First sisters are not marines. Yes we may be able to shoot better then them but so can fire warriors. Just because we have bolters doesn't mean we should be played with only them.

 

Second, I really hate to say this but I don't think you been playing sisters to long to know how to play to there strengths. Example you mentions all you remembered bout cWH was 2 flying cannoess. Yet you pretty much posted a c:wh list. Back in those days our troop choices could rend with 2 flamers. Back than those troops would work in your list. And they had staying power.

 

Our troops now are nothing like then. Hence why it's either preferred to run 20man priest blobs or 5 man immolator squads. Because they are very much so proven.

 

On to immolators. First if your playing pure sisters you will max out exorcists and domionans. Then if using imolators troops you max out. You claim running 6 imolators. Hmmm 3 of them should be doms. If your only running 3 troops of them than I agree only immolators are to low. But in a 2k list you can easily max all six troops plus fast attack and and extra elite or hq in Immolator all while keeping 3 Exo's. That's 10 Immolator and 3 Exo in 2k list. 8 immolators and 3 Exo in 1750 list. I can no see how your list can touch this when you lack the best unit we have and replaced with one of our worst.

 

I personally don't think your meta is at all tough. You saying that you need full size squads in rhono is not saying much.

 

And no 3 10 man squads in rhino is not more survival than 6 five man squads in Immolator or rhino. Not even close. A good . Scratch that any eldar, tau, ig list can focus fire and wipe 3 rhinos and it's contents a full turn or two before 6immolators or rhinos with 5 man squads. Because of targeting issues alone.

[Naminé]

Ok guys let's just cool it a little on the different strategy talk :)

 

There are many different ways of making an Adepta Sororitas army work and having success; that is the beauty of the codex and 40k in general.  Let's try to avoid starting arguments over such matters and try and wheel this thread back on track, which is the discussion of heavy flamers and their merits.

[greggles]

That's true in a small game, it lets you pack in the melta/flame weaponry, but in a larger game,

That would probably explain our difference in opinion. We limit our game sizes to 1000 or 1500, as that helps to control the explosion of data slates, escalation, stronghold, formations, forgeworld, and supplements that have happened in the past year. Our local meta allows everything, just caps points at 1500 for 1v1, and 1000 for teams. (two 1000 point lists vs two 1000 point lists)

 

At 1500, you have to make hard choices, and though a new fancy toy will definitely be fun to play with, it will also severely hamper other elements of your army, which seems to make for more fun balanced play (without trying to ban the kitchen sink).

[thade]

Rhinos are roughly equivalent to paper bags on wheels, but that's not a mark against them considering that their purpose is to effectively redeploy a unit and make that unit invincible to small arms fire. Here's my "Rhino Litany":

 

First turn: still alive? Put the unit where it needs to be now that I know where my opponent is post-deployment.

Second turn: still alive? Cool, I have a second chance to reposition if I wish, and I still have a bunker.

Third turn: still alive? Wait, really? Okay, tank shock some noobs to punish them for leaving me with my paper bag.

Fourth turn: as third turn.

Fifth turn: as third and fourth turn, only with much more laughter.

Sixth turn: ludicrous. Tank shock some more.

Seventh turn: the Emperor was with us this day.

 

"Tank shock" can also just mean "be super annoying". I've dumped units early and moved an entire line of rhinos up and made a wall in the middle of a battle field, which is hilarious, especially if it leaves more wrecks than craters. They're cheap, nigh invincible to holy bolter fire, and serve a function. I virtually always take them.

[MomentoMori]

Thade

I 100% agree rhinos are very useful. I've posted the same thing on other threads. Personally I'm just running immolators instead. But I'm running 5man squads and running two tanks for ever one.

 

Greggles

Yes but Sisters only gets stronger if not a top tier army at lower points. 1k-1500 I'd take sisters against almost anything. Only changes I'd make would be switching a few multi melta immolators for heavy Flamer immolators. And go from 6troop choices down to four. I'd still keep doms and exo.

 

375

3x exo

 

495

3x dom

 

540

4x troops in heavy Flamer or multi melta Immolators

 

90 points for hq and upgrades

 

I'd take this list vs any 1500pt list out there.

 

Against lists 1500 and lower:

 

Knights? Imperial or aliens. Your taking out 1-2 units a turn but I have over 10 and any one of th can take your last wound/hull point. You have 2-3 knights? Makes it easier for me.

 

Fliers? Ok I might lose but I stand a good chance drawing and if I play towards mission I can still squeak win.

 

Demons? First I'm castling up. Soon as you deep strike in I'm comming at you with more Flamer templates than you have models (jokes) and any large threat is going down by exo and doms.

 

Seer council? You don't have enough 2++ saves in a single death star to handle my flamers. Your left over points is no match for the rest of my army.

 

Serpent spam. Tough match up. What I do you basically do better. But I can spam just as many as you and my doms eat your shields. Any of my units are more than capable taking you down. I probably have more straight forward tricks just lack your speed.

 

IG parking lot? Like any list. Divide and conquor.

 

Tau hover board lot? Divide and conquor. Pray doms takes out hammer heads.

 

Flying MC? Focus fire.

 

CSM/drakes/bikes Stay in transports castle up focus fire. Just need to out play them.

 

SM and variants. Identify their gimmick. Proceed to cleanse the heritics. I can almost do anything you can do. I shoot just as well depending on who you talk to. Your toughness and ATSNF separates us. But what I lack in pure toughness I make up for costing less which means I can bring more to the table.

Bikes: see seer council

Terminators: see knights. I should auto win against terminators 5/6 games. Kill points I'm going for complete wipe out.

 

Orc/nids? BBQ

 

Cortez? Pretty much a wasted 100 points towards you. Either one shot him or ignore him. If he running conclaive avoid close quarters. Pop transports and mass Flamer template.

[thade]

Paper bags come in all flavors. Feel free to employ the Rhino Litany for your Blessed Immolators at need. <3

[*Furyou Miko]

Sadly, we only have one extra Sister for every twelve Marines. I'm not really sure if that balances out.

[MomentoMori]

When you put it that way no it hardly makes a difference. But For 135 points I can get a twin linked heavy Flamer, a Flamer and a heavy Flamer or a twin linked heavy Flamer, 2 flamers and a combi Flamer. And for same points you could go all melta and or mix. Not many of any army including space marine can do that. Avg cost of space marine squad is 190 + rhino cost. When you factor the low cost for every other unit we have. We should be able to field 2-3 extra units on table. With more fire power.

[*Furyou Miko]

Yeah, that's very true. How many times do we hear Marines crying for double special weapons in tactical squads? hehe.

[march10k]

 

March

Ok for the past week or two I've been standing back trying my hardest not to say anything but I really can't. Your logic against immolators with 5 sister squads is pretty fail. Not only pretty fail but you make it a point to spread this logic on almost every post and thread you enter upon. And when you actually try to contribute with a list. The list just plain fails. The only other thing you have contributed was keeping a conversation going about how fantasy is better then 40k on a sisters thread. Please stop.

First sisters are not marines. Yes we may be able to shoot better then them but so can fire warriors. Just because we have bolters doesn't mean we should be played with only them.

Second, I really hate to say this but I don't think you been playing sisters to long to know how to play to there strengths. Example you mentions all you remembered bout cWH was 2 flying cannoess. Yet you pretty much posted a c:wh list. Back in those days our troop choices could rend with 2 flamers. Back than those troops would work in your list. And they had staying power.

Our troops now are nothing like then. Hence why it's either preferred to run 20man priest blobs or 5 man immolator squads. Because they are very much so proven.

On to immolators. First if your playing pure sisters you will max out exorcists and domionans. Then if using imolators troops you max out. You claim running 6 imolators. Hmmm 3 of them should be doms. If your only running 3 troops of them than I agree only immolators are to low. But in a 2k list you can easily max all six troops plus fast attack and and extra elite or hq in Immolator all while keeping 3 Exo's. That's 10 Immolator and 3 Exo in 2k list. 8 immolators and 3 Exo in 1750 list. I can no see how your list can touch this when you lack the best unit we have and replaced with one of our worst.

I personally don't think your meta is at all tough. You saying that you need full size squads in rhono is not saying much.

And no 3 10 man squads in rhino is not more survival than 6 five man squads in Immolator or rhino. Not even close. A good . Scratch that any eldar, tau, ig list can focus fire and wipe 3 rhinos and it's contents a full turn or two before 6immolators or rhinos with 5 man squads. Because of targeting issues alone.

Wow...rage much? Fail this, fail that. I think perhaps you fail to think beyond the netlist of the day. Instead of just flaming people you disagree with, try this:

1. Explain how taking as few scoring units as possible, and then making them the smallest legal size and putting them in a very expensive AV11 coffin is a really great way to make sure you control a winning number of objectives at the end of the game. Then explain how taking four decent-sized scoring units instead, and putting them in much cheaper AV11 coffins is a really bad idea.

2. Demonstrate that I said "Sisters are marines and should be played like marines." Further demonstrate that I said "You really should only field boltguns."

3. I have been playing SoB since before C:WH. And you're completely changing what I said in order to try to sound like you might know what you're talking about when you say I just picked up a sisters army on ebay yesterday (or was it the day before?) What I said was that I remember the prime use of faith points in the C:WH era being for spirit of the martyr (IIRC...in any case, the one that made armor saves into invulnerable saves), mostly on challenge monkey canonesses and seraphim. That's nowhere near the same as saying "all I remember about C:WH was flying canonesses." (by the way, mine has never flown) Nice try.

4. 20 man priest blobs and 5 man immo spam are the netlist du jour. Nobody disputes that...but I've never been one to follow the crowd. My 4th/5th edition tau had 7-8 crisis suits, only 2-3 of which were fireknife and none of which were deathrain. I got pretty good at telling the "take fifteen crisis suits and make them all either fireknife or deathrain, or you autolose" chorus to pound sand. You need to lighten up and allow for the possibility that games can be won without slavishly fielding a carbon copy of a netlist.

5. Our battle sisters are very much like what they were in C:WH. The only difference is that they have a unit-specific act of faith that suits them well now, instead of a menu of situational options.

6. I'm not sure where or in what context I mentioned six immolators, but whatever. My point is that spamming expensive vehicles that are a high priority target because of their TLMM, yet easy kills because of their AV11 isn't particularly the best idea. I guess if I had to choose between your two netlists, I'd go with the priest blobs, if only to avoid the immo spam.

7. My meta must suck? That's mature...are you in the 7th grade, or is it the 6th? As a matter of fact, I move just about every year. I've experienced the metas of Savannah, Atlanta, Louisville, Colorado Springs, La Crosse, D.C., SF, Tokyo, and now Kansas City. Kansas City is by far the toughest.

8. Domionans, as you call them, are not a bad unit. They'd be the first thing I'd add above 1850, and it wouldn't be a bad move to substitute them for the repentia that I am fielding now. I just can't bring myself not to field melee troops, and two squads of them, at that, for redundancy.

9. It's easy to make the vacuous claim that MSU is harder to kill "because of targeting issues." Six AV11 vehicles is child's play for my mech guard (spamming nine chimeras with heavy bolter, multilaser, and a squad with an autocannon in the hatch, except for the company command squad with four plasma guns instead), there are no "target saturation" issues there at all. Mechanized wraithguard spam won't have any issues, either, with their 500 twinlinked shots per wave serpent. Tau can't handle six AV11 vehicles in one turn? C'mon, man! Even their pulse rifles beat the pants off of a rhino chassis.

 

 

MomentoMori, on 17 Mar 2014 - 13:46, said:
When you put it that way no it hardly makes a difference. But For 135 points I can get a twin linked heavy Flamer, a Flamer and a heavy Flamer or a twin linked heavy Flamer, 2 flamers and a combi Flamer. And for same points you could go all melta and or mix. Not many of any army including space marine can do that. Avg cost of space marine squad is 190 + rhino cost. When you factor the low cost for every other unit we have. We should be able to field 2-3 extra units on table. With more fire power.

So you're comparing ten space marines to five sisters?  NO KIDDING, the sisters are cheaper.  If you're talking about five sisters in an immo, the valid comparison is to five marines in a razorback.  I would get 5 marines with a plasma gun and a combi-plas in a razor for 150 points, 11% more expensive than your five sisters.  For T4, ATSKNF, and access to far more weapon options (not to mention overcharged engines, for space vampires)...it's a steal.  I don't get how you say I'm the one trying to play like female space marines...Dominions with their four meltas do something space marines can't, but spamming 5 man troops choices in an AV11 vehicle with a gun on top is something  space marines do better than sisters.  And I don't even think it's a good idea when they do it!