Making Sisters Cool

[Knight of the Raven]

I must say I actually like the sisters' corset of battle. Aesthetically, not sexually. And the mere act of existing is enough to have people fantasize about you. Friendship is Magic is a show for little girls with no fetish fuel and yet the internet is ablaze with pony pornography.

 

 

What to most people think are cooler? Space Marines or Sisters of Battle, and why is that?

Girls have cooties.

Seriously though, sisters would be almost as popular as marines are now if they started when the latter began and had four codices with the corresponding novel and model release for most of their existence. I say 'almost' because they're still human instead of genetically-modified super warriors.

 

 

So are you saying you would like to see the Faith thing utilised more strongly in the rules, to the point were it means the difference between winning and losing games?  It would certainly help give the sisters a niche!

As someone who doesn't play fantasy precisely because I don't want to have to choose what and when to cast/dispel a spell, I'd rather the Adepta Sororitas to be able to win without Faith. I loved that inaugural battle report against tau where they won even though their acts of faith didn't matter that much, especially after they lost access to them after Saint Celestine bought the farm!

 

EDIT: I agree that the sisters are a footnote as of now. That's how I consider them myself and while I don't mind it (I even like it from times to times), that doesn't help marketing them as worth Bob Random's time.

[MomentoMori]

If it weren't for the price/ availability of models and the lack of a hard codex. I highly doubt sisters would be "uncool". Period.

For pure competitiveness sake. Sisters lack the player base to make a solid dent in the meta. It's a numbers game. Sisters are a solid army. They always have been the last 4 editions. From white dwarf to which hunters to whitedwarf again to digital.

Minus the minority players like Fouryu. The rest of us like all gamers be it RPGs, board, CCG, tabletop, live action are either walking nerds or closet nerds with a nuns with guns fetish. I remember back in late 90s some gamer friends had an army of "battle :cuss" to this day I can field an apoc army of pure battle :cuss in the 6k range. Unfortunately a lot of us has been around 30 years to see fantasy or 20+ for 40k/rouge trader. If we haven't gotton an sob army it's more than likely because first we had the legion of the damn treatment ie a detachment to a main list or the cost.

Sisters have always been cool.
#6 GW could make sisters more viable by making plastic kits and a hard codex.

The real question is will the 2014 generation of kids going to fall for nuns with guns trick on a Dinosaur table top game and keep our community alive. And will battle :cuss still be cool if everyone ran them?

 

++EDIT. Non-family-friendly content replaced with : cuss. t++

[*Furyou Miko]

Fouryu, that's a new one. How did you know I wear glasses?

Just call me Miko, it's easier for everyone.

I agree that Sisters have always been a solid army, power wise, although I noticed a marked difference in my W/L/D ratio after the 5e white dwarf update over my witch hunter days, which is... a little odd, really. I think it has more to do with the fact I was coming back to the game after a very long hiatus and mostly playing my Necrons before then than the difference in codex power.

Anyway, get it right. We're Bolter asterisks, and proud of it.

So, our power level isn't the problem. We're no Tau, but we're solid. The difficulty of getting models and the rarity of players is the main thing holding us back, I think. Twelve year old boys today are just as interested in badass girls as they were fifteen years ago... and as for being a dinosaur game, a major focus in a good computer game would do us a world of good. As long as it was handled properly, of course.

[MomentoMori]

Agreed boys will be boys.

 

I think GW is going in the right direction with Knights is like Gundom but British. Now how does one make the Brits cool...

I want one of those models just to paint and place in my office as a show piece. If that's how to get new players whom eventually will find Sisters so be it.

 

Problem is the GW tax. If they weren't so bent in trying to monoplize everything from where you play to how you gain models. They would do ok. Go back to the roots hit up every fan boy comic book shop / hamebrew hobby store make things affordable again they just may start to make a profit again. Or sell the company like wizards of the coast to a hasbro and enter the world of mass marketing. I'm talking Toys R Us, Target, Barnes N Noble.

 

Hell, the money is in the US. Sponser after school activities keep kids of drugs and give the introverts a hobby. The youth should be your target.

[thade]

Oh, that is what I want. I want Relic to make a Space Marine-style video game with a lone Sister of Battle fighting across a death world. With a story by A. D-B. And a sound track by Skrillex.

 

While I'm wish-listing, let's make this game free-to-play.

[*Furyou Miko]

lol. Skrillex? The Sisters deserve some classic rock.

[Fibonacci]

I vote for Pretty Reckless or Hailstorm.

[Grey Mage]

Whilst I agree (and want this) most whole-heartedly, was the Dark Eldar overhaul really a success?  Despite a new model line they are still fairly unpopular as far as 40k factions go.  Does this mean that there are other factors at play which are more important in determining the popularity of a given army?

I would say they are a success actually, theyre quite popular amongst casual gamers in the NW, and back in Montana. I know alot of people who have 2k or so DE sitting around, and several with apoc sized forces. The fluff renewal pissed some people off- and it always will- but it drew in more people than it lost with its dark fey aspects, and the new kits, and a decade of buildup before the release.... it was very well done, and GW has even talked about it as a major success for them.

 

 

 More female models in general.  Eldar does a good job of this I think, but the Imperial Guard, Chaos (not marine), Tau, and Inquisition are a total sausage fest.  It is such a  male dominated hobby visually that an inherently female army stands out as being so radically different that there's this sense that they don't 'fit in' with the rest.  More female

models in the hobby as a whole would help the sisters stop standing out in a negative way and start standing out in a positive way instead.

While on one hand I agree with this point.. on the other hand I dont. There are Tau females if you want there to be, and arent if you dont. Tau treat everyone the same, with the same armor, and have a female general who is quite firmly placed in the fluff and gets playtime as much as any of the other special characters out there. The Inquisition has female asassins and inquisitors, and the models available for henchmen is limited to begin with... most people use third partie minis anyways. Really, the only place a lack of women really stands out to me is in the IG. Players have been begging for that for ages, and GW doesnt seem to think theyre up to the task for some reason.

 

So that being said... its not a negative thing. The sisters dont need to be 'included' in a bunch of female model-releases for other armies. They dont need to be 'included' in anything. They are the emperors flame, where they are the imperium stands. Other forces are glad to be near their light, because it means the day is not yet lost ;)

 

Which is why I think their sexualization is really spot on. Theyve got enough secondary characteristics to make it obvious theyre ladies without making me feel like Im at a brothel, or a mall. Though maybe fewer high heels in the pictures?

 

 

 

  Another good point; the purpose of the Sisters is somewhat blurred at the moment.  What is their role in the galaxy?  Imperial police vs heretics?  Are their not several factions which fulfil that role already?

Theres going to be a small riot when I say this... but its true so :p

 

The Sisters are Space Marines light. There is less than one marine per inhabited world in the Imperium. For every marine that gets fielded there are 3-400 soritas, and thats good because sometimes you need someone who can stand up in a fight, with the best equipment and the highest levels of training. Someone who can be deployed en masse and fight like a real army should. Marines will often lack the numbers to hold ground, Sisters rarely have that problem, but arent as bogged down or variably reliable as the imperial guard. Ironically, theyre what napoleonics players would call a 'guard force'.

 

Even Kaskrin arent given bolters are their primary longarm. Its sad that a Bolter no longer seems to be important on the tabletop, but its still priceless in the fluff.

 

In any case... better than human stats and armor, marine level equipment, tau-infantry-list level numbers and quality vehicle support. The sisters are very capable of being fielded on the table top in a way that reflects their fluff. They just need to have that preserved while giving a spin on it that makes them stand out a bit. A rule on immolators that they can flat out and then fire? A new option for heavy weapons in retributor squads? A 2nd way of deploying ze ladies without rhinos? Actually, a workable alternate deployment system would really make them stand out on the tabletop.....

 

How about a 2nd fortification slot? Sisters are known for their monasteries and protecting the heck out of them. Bring out 2-3 bastionish fortifications, and allow sisters to deploy within them, or within 6" of them as long as they are atleast 12" away from an enemy, even though the bastion-thingies are allowed outside of the normal deployment zone. Let players castle up a bit, and their other forces act as mobile reserves... with the enemy breaking on the emperors shield?

 

Because the tank-rush pretty much sells itself. Sisters already drop and shoot out of rhinos just as well as marines do for a slightly cheaper price. Since marines got a point reduction, sisters probably will aswell by a point, maybe 2.

[*Furyou Miko]

Um, GM?

 

Astartes outnumber Sororitas in the galaxy. Some friends and I ran the numbers a little while ago, and, well... the Sororitas (According to established fluff) receive five hundred novices a year, which are then separated into the Militants, the Hospitallers, the Dialogous, the Pronatus, the Sabine... basically, their intake is unrealistically small. They only really control two worlds - Ophelia VIII, and Terra - with all other convents being minor or specialist missions.

 

The Black Library likes to have Sisters dying by the bucketload to show off how strong the enemy is, but if their casualty rates were anything like as high as that implies, they would have been wiped out centuries ago.

[Fibonacci]

 For every marine that gets fielded there are 3-400 soritas,

It all depends on who wrote the fluff and what is current.  The newest BRB says there are several thousand for each major Order and many lesser Orders of a few hundred. 

 

So (several thousand X Major Order) + (few hundred X many Sisterhoods) = exacly a whole lot of Sisters. 

How many are several?

How many are a few?

How many are many?

 

Going by Yahoo Answers ... "a few is three, rarely four; several is at least three but small, not exceeding five"

Many is elative.  A large portion of things.  It needs a whole to be judged against. So 6 major Orders, 8 to 12 minor orders and "many" lesser Sisterhoods.  So ... 25 is many? 2,500 is many? how about 75?  75 sounds good to me.

 

(several thousand X Major Order) + (few hundred X many Sisterhoods)

(4 thousand X 6 Major) + (3 hundred X 75 Sisterhoods)

(24,000) + (12,500)

37,500 Sisters of Battle in the current fluff. 

 

if there are 3-400 Sisters per marine then there are  between 94 and 124 Space Marines.  I don't know the full number of all the Space Marines but I'm pretty sure there are more than 10 full squads of them.

[WarriorFish]

As I've mentioned before I'd like there to be more Sisters. More orders too, so there's plenty of DIY scope for players in the same way there is for Marines for example. I always had this idea of the Sisterhood being able to march to war in significant numbers if they so wished, so I certainly wouldn't object if GW changed that in an update (hohoho, reset the clock please someone).

[*Furyou Miko]

There's as much DIY scope as you like because of the Minor Orders. For example, the canonical Order of the Blessed Enquiry was primarily drawn from the Order of Our Martyred Lady, but also (logically) must have included Sisters Dialogous and Pronatus, since their mandate was to "uncover the secrets of Chaos and its creatures".

[Grey Mage]

37,500 sisters, tops? In the galaxy? I doubt it.

Theres 6 major orders and 8 minor orders who are named, true.  But... many is 75?

Were talking about a galaxy where the worlds in a sector are by the hundred, and every time we read a black library book there seems to be a convent on most major worlds- of which every sector has 5-25. So even if each one is only a minor emplacement, its 2-4 hundred each, so were looking at 2000-10,000 a sector at a more reasonable guess.

Where are we finding this 500 a year piece however? Im curious to look at it, because that sounds like what one might expect of a sector each year, honestly. Considering the untold billions, and that theyre orphans of highborn stock.

[*Furyou Miko]

The normally references source is here, from GW's old character profile page for Inquisitor. The appropriate section I will quote below;

 

 

 

 

At the age of seventeen, Anastasia stood with five hundred of her fellow Novices and took the Oaths of Adherence in the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra. The Ecclesiarch himself blessed the assembled Novices in a ceremony that lasted throughout the night, and culminated at dawn with a superior from each of the Orders Militant stepping forward to lead each of the girls off to don the armour of their new Order for the very first time. It was a superior of the Order of the Ermine Mantle that stood before her, and Sister Anastasia left at her side, taking leave of Terra for Subiaco Diablo, the Hive world near the Cadian Gate called home by her new order.

Seems my memory was a little faulty - that particular piece of fluff implies that it's only the Orders Militant represented at that ceremony. Still, five hundred a year is ridiculously small.

[Grey Mage]

Indeed, but its also those raised from but a single planet, and probably only the orders stationed there or nearby that are present at the ceremony. I cant see someone from one of the cadian systems running all the way to terra to pick up one novitiate, no matter how rare and skilled. Theres more Pariahs in the imperium than 38,000.

... or to put it another way, Dark Heresy seems to say that about 20% off those attending the schola progenum- including both sexes so probably closer to 40% give or take- end up in the Soritas.

[*Furyou Miko]

The Famulous travel the Imperium taking recruits from here and there as they go. Five hundred wasn't the number of novices from that planet, it was the number of novices from that overall intake.

 

Dark Heresy also implies that there are more Sisters in the calixis sector than there are in the entire rest of the Imperium and that they can shoot laser beams from their eyes.

[Grey Mage]

They cant shoot laserbeams from their eyes?

Or imperial flame from their rare and holy farts?

Ive been living a lie! My DH character is going to be completely mangled now..... *sighs*

Sorry, I really like the DH fluff, so its where I take alot of my information.

[march10k]

I think Shirley Manson should do the soundtrack :)

 

And we need to differentiate between "sexy" and "erotic." Much of what is sexy is erotic, but very little of what is erotic is sexy.

[graysparrow]

 

Matthew, they are SO NOT 'combat archaeologists' !!!

 

True, but they could be.  It would be a specialization, a hook, something to give sisters a niche all their own that is more PR friendly than 'ultra fundamentalist catholic-esque zealots'.   /my2thrones

[Fibonacci]

  so were looking at 2000-10,000 a sector at a more reasonable guess.

10K per sector?  That's not many, that's many thousand!

 

I would have sworn I had read before that sisters numbered in the millions but I'm not finding it now.  Was it the 3rd edition codex, maybe?

 

The current codex says the Sisters of Battle were original formed of the two Prioris Convents each with "tens of thousands" of battle sisters.  That would be a minimum of 40,000 Sisters of Battle.  This was at their founding with war depleted numbers from the second most brutal and costly war of the Imperium's history. The convients contimued to grow and were split into the Major Orders; 4 at first with two more created later.  From the digital codex's discription we can guess at 250,000 Sisters of Battle as a start.

 

Anyway, the point is that information from various sources are vague, incomplete and contradictory.  And why wouldn't it be?  This is 40K after all. :lol:

[thade]

 

 

Matthew, they are SO NOT 'combat archaeologists' !!!

 

True, but they could be.  It would be a specialization, a hook, something to give sisters a niche all their own that is more PR friendly than 'ultra fundamentalist catholic-esque zealots'.   /my2thrones

 

 

Okay, so...I totally agree that they are NOT "combat archaelogists". Furthermore, I don't want them to be.

 

BUT

 

I really, really want a 40k faction that are strictly combat archaelogists. (I'll put a bolt round in the foot of the first marine that says "Necrons".) Gothic diggers? haha, actually Ad Mech is kind of that, in a way.

[march10k]

Yeah, and AdMech is getting a lot of really cool toys from FW these days, but I guess it's all 30k?  It'd be cool for them to get a proper 40k codex, after all there are a lot more AdMech running around than GK, and they get a codex!

[thade]

My (unfounded) suspicion is that we have people like Silent Requiem to thank for that, for making the GK (an admittedly hard to play list back in the day) a lovable underdog...which went along quite well with their look and mystique. That said, I'm hoping we finally get an Ad Mech codex now that these minimal overhead digi codecies are a thing.

 

Let's have them spring for the Sisters first though. <3

[RolandTHTG]

They've always been pretty cool to me. Just had other priorities, but now that I'm getting some funds built up from my job... ... they tempt me. They Tempt me so.
Doesn't help that my Dark Heresy sister has been taking names and kicking ass. ("Did you just cut off your own arm?" "The compound fracture was just getting in the way. Now where's the cultists? " and then she proceeded to kill all of them )

And their music should totally be like E Nomine/Schlafes Bruder

or

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

 

Matthew, they are SO NOT 'combat archaeologists' !!!

True, but they could be. It would be a specialization, a hook, something to give sisters a niche all their own that is more PR friendly than 'ultra fundamentalist catholic-esque zealots'. /my2thrones

Would you say the Sisters "ultra fundamentalist nuns" schtick is more or less PR friendly than the Dark Eldar's "torture and orgies" modus operandi or Chaos's "mass murdering devil worshippers" aesthetic?