Who holds authority over a forge world?

[Battybattybats]

Remember when Zoats were the majority of Tyranid forces, a slave-race kept controlled by their diet of Zoatibix other than small indpendent groups of rebel Zoats?

Who knows, they may yet one day return GW seem to be going through a nostalgia phase in the rules at the moment (they even brought back spore pods for Nids).

I hope so, when they put a picture of a Zoat and a 40k vamoire in the 6th ed rulebook i was expecting a finecast one. They'd make a great allies option now army choice is even less restricted in 7th.

Remember when Dark Angels were Native Americans with names like Two-Heads-Talking and Fierce-Weasel?

Well that's not accurate. The story isn't meant to be taken literally, its a fable told to initiates to allude to the Chapter's secret mission without giving it away. Quite obviously, the Deathwing never painted their armour white because of links to their homeworld (they have all memory of their origins purged from them remember?). But it's a good story and reinforces a lot of the Chapter's key beliefs and values.

No that's the retcon explanation. In 1st ed Rogue Trader they are a tribal society where killing a Grox with a Knife and cutting out it's heart is the test for recruitment. The explicitly Native American thing came in with the first Space Hulk 1st edition expansion Deathwing. That expansion was the creation of the Deathwing notion, previous to that Dark Angel Terminators were depicted in Black Armour. The original version of the Deathwing short story was inside the Deathwing Space Hulk Expansion rulebook and was quite profusely illustrated leaaving absolutely no doubt. The story includes the painting of the armour white once the Terminators on their recruitment drive realise they are on a suicide mission and use a non-astartes tradition from their original culture. You are referring to the later book of short stories version, altered to suit the retconning of the chapter.Here's some of the pictures, the painting of the armour:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_-HZLorI1B0w/S4rBLAbcbjI/AAAAAAAAKzI/Y7unqpX4HYM/s800/Deathwing%20last%20stand%20artwork%20GW.jpg

And this is

the survivor out of his armour telling the rest of the Dark Angels what happened when they come looking for the missing terminators.

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h189/MKojiro/Deathwing03.jpg

And here we see the heraldry and explanation of the deathwing banner

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h189/MKojiro/Deathwing04.jpg

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Remember when Leman Russ had his lungs burned out and had an Osmotic Gill cybernetic installed to breathe?

Primarchs don't generally lose organ function, they have insane regenerative capability. So I think it's more awesome he just grew his lungs back

Primarchs didn't even exist in the 1st rulebook where the illustration of cyborged Leman Russ and explanatory text is. They came from the background of the boxed game Space Marine which was the Infantry game following on from Adeptus Titanicus the Titan vs Titan that itself introduced the Horus Heresy. I like the altered background of Primarchs etc, but it is important to note it's one of countless retcons and canon-conflicts even in 1st ed 40k. actually, here is the picture!

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_v-QnkPLGATg/TCTUpfDPFjI/AAAAAAAABVs/GM169Ent6nU/s800/lr_lg.jpg

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Remember when the Mentor Legion was the chapter that tested out new technology?

Well that never really made much sense. The Ad Mech don't release new tech to the Astartes without extensive testing themselves (and they reserve a lot of technology for their private use anyway). And new tech would usually be granted to the Inquisition or Deathwatch first, especially if its experimental (hellfire bolts etc).

Sure but it was still there Here's the illustration where we learn they test experimental tech, note the Techpriest in white robes! http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2010/11/13/154972_md-Artwork,%20Copyright%20Games%20Workshop,%20Mentor%20Legion,%20Rogue%20Trader.jpg

Remember when the Desert Lions Chapter included Legio Cybernetica Robots posthumously as Space Marines for their bravery?

Again, weird and awkward given how the Legio has been described in 30k. I'm not even sure if they're considered extant in the current 40k timeline.

Correction: the surviving robots joined the Desert Lions

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Desert_Lions

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Remember when the Blood Axe tribe of Orks regularly allied with the Imperial Guard?

Allies of Convenience

Yes, one of the reasons i support those rules, enabling old background and old legal armies to be returned to the table.

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Remember when Genestealers and Orks sometimes turned to Chaos?

Well the first instance is retarded, because Genestealers are Tyranids, and Tyranids are all the extension of one singular conciousness in the warp. They're already psychic puppets, and the Hive Mind is so powerful it actually silences the warp around it. Orks turning to Chaos is still a thing, they're found on Space Hulks sometimes. There is even that story in the Ork codex of that warband that landed on a Daemon world and fights for eternity now.

Actually Genestealers were not Tyranids back then. That was another retcon. Genestealers were their own independent threat to the Imperium all on their own. They had Brood Telepathy and their own minor power in the warp. The shadow in the warp didn't exist back then and also hardly anyone played Tyranids, there was only 2 Tyrnaid miniatures back then while Genestealer Cults and Genestealer Invasion Forces were common and Genestealer Cults had a large metal range as well as plastics. Only struggling genestealer cults would use chaos to survive, but not only did they there's art of it.

Note the Daemon Weapons and Khornate symbols in this John Blanche artwork from 1st edition Warhammer 40,000 Compilation, the book tht introduced Eldar Craftworlds (my old beloved copy i got signed by Jes Goodwin a couple years ago)

http://www.mywargame.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/gen_lg-300x221.jpg

Here we have a Patriarch and a purestrain genestealer turned Chaos Spawn

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Pacific81/no3.jpg

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Remember when the Adepta Sororitas existed to destroy Marine Chapters who turned traitor?

Extra dumb, and completely contradicts their founding backstory. You don't send unaugmented humans to fight post-human crusaders from antiquity.

Their retconned backstory! Retconned for both Marines and Sororitas!

Here we see a Sororitas weighing and measuring a marine of the Rainbow Warriors chapter and finding them wanting.

http://gregorhutton.com/roleplaying/sister-sin.jpg

So as you can see 40k background has changed a massive amount over the years. So conflicts in canon will be plentiful hence i think its important for us to find solid source material for the forgeworld answer, and it could be that several sources directly contradict.

[librisrouge]

I personally buy genestealers turning to chaos. It would be rare and hard but possible as long as there isn't a hive fleet nearby. Stealers are instinctual and independent until the hive mind forces its way in, something they're written to fear.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I prefer the changes, was my point. I'm sure all that stuff was the case back when dinosaurs ruled the Earth. I'm making the broader point that GW have gotten better (somewhat, its not consistent) at fleshing out their crazy universe. Massive caveats apply, of course. 

[Battybattybats]

I somewhat agree, though i think some old stuff was superior. I think Genestealers were better on their own, even though i always liked tyranids too, and even when made into tyranids reducing them to make the tyranids look better was i believe a major mistake.

Still i think we can all agree now that it has been established that GW canon changes so when answering this topic question about forgeworlds it's worth citing source material.

So in doing so, on page 200-201 of Horus Heresy book 3 Extermination we are told that at the time of the Great Crusade each forgeworld was like an independent power or kingdom in their own right, with degree of fealty to Mars differing on a case by case basis from absolute to weak with rebellion distinctly possible, bound more by common doctrine, culture and mutually shared obsession rather than by loyalty or duty.

The political structure of the forgeworlds is also described as feudal, including on the scale of orders colleges fanes and forge-cities. Each forgeworld a patchwork of independent and semi-independent domains. Each Magos and Archmagos (it says terms and structures vary forgeworld to forgeworld) having their own military forces and domains. They make up a Synod ruled over by a Archmagos-Intendant or Archmagos Archimandrite.

Further alon on page 205 we get a flowchart of military hierarchy more specific example and more terms.

We are told an Archmagos Intendant has the equivalent rank of a planetary governor/imperial commander and with example alternate titles from some forgeworlds of: Hierophant Technis, Gnostarch, Fabricator Potentate, Vox-Omnis and finally Revered-Comptroller.

Now that's for 30k. How much of this remains by 40k is a good question.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I somewhat agree, though i think some old stuff was superior. I think Genestealers were better on their own, even though i always liked tyranids too, and even when made into tyranids reducing them to make the tyranids look better was i believe a major mistake.

 

Genestealers haven't been reduced at all (in canon terms...rules wise...don't ask). They're still a vanguard that make cults and overthrow local governments through terrorism and subversion. It would be nice if there were rules for it...

 

Speaking of Ad Mech background, you should really get a copy of Conquest. It expands on Knight-Titan background a lot. 

[Battybattybats]

 

I somewhat agree, though i think some old stuff was superior. I think Genestealers were better on their own, even though i always liked tyranids too, and even when made into tyranids reducing them to make the tyranids look better was i believe a major mistake.

 

Genestealers haven't been reduced at all (in canon terms...rules wise...don't ask). They're still a vanguard that make cults and overthrow local governments through terrorism and subversion. It would be nice if there were rules for it...

 

Speaking of Ad Mech background, you should really get a copy of Conquest. It expands on Knight-Titan background a lot. 

 

Actually in 2nd ed they had their first fluff reduction with the change to the infected with them losing part of their brain rather than being psychically and biologically made to obsessively desire to protect their child and the cult. Then they gradually omitted more and more of the fluff like the size cults could reach and their exponential threat alone to the Imperium, that Kryptman back in the Ichar IV days of Hive Fleet Kraken discovered they had even infiltrated as far as the high lords of terra! (though they never did say which of them), dropping the ork-genestealer hybrids etc now it's hard to find anything describing the generational stages of hybrids, the 'genestealer kiss' implantation, the Magus etcetera so a huge amount of standard stealer fluff is now absent unless you own old books or trawl wikis.

 

Officially they dropped the army because it was too nasty adding the massive firepower of guard units and tanks to the best CC unit in the game.. but they aren't that good in CC now and with unbound we can mix those two anyway, so it's time they brought them back.

 

As for Conquest i'm waiting on the delivery! I ordered the collectors edition and a Styrix and am just waiting on international shipping. :D

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Actually in 2nd ed they had their first fluff reduction with the change to the infected with them losing part of their brain rather than being psychically and biologically made to obsessively desire to protect their child and the cult. Then they gradually omitted more and more of the fluff like the size cults could reach and their exponential threat alone to the Imperium, that Kryptman back in the Ichar IV days of Hive Fleet Kraken discovered they had even infiltrated as far as the high lords of terra! (though they never did say which of them), dropping the ork-genestealer hybrids etc now it's hard to find anything describing the generational stages of hybrids, the 'genestealer kiss' implantation, the Magus etcetera so a huge amount of standard stealer fluff is now absent unless you own old books or trawl wikis.

I think some of it is still in the Tyranid book, although its massively condensed. Sadly 'Stealers are but a shadow of the former glory in rules terms...here's hoping a dataslate for Cults comes along someday.

Officially they dropped the army because it was too nasty adding the massive firepower of guard units and tanks to the best CC unit in the game.. but they aren't that good in CC now and with unbound we can mix those two anyway, so it's time they brought them back.

Genestealers aren't the best close-combat unit in the game, haven't been for some time now. It's really sad how far they've fallen. The first blow (and probably mortal) was Rending going from hits to wounds. Losing biomorphs with the move from 4th to 5th was another (killed Carnifex too), and now with 6th and 7th adding in no charges from Outflank, Interceptor and Overwatch...I feel so sorry for all the people who went Stealer Shock lists in 4th and 5th. They've had their whole army gutted repeatedly.

As for Conquest i'm waiting on the delivery! I ordered the collectors edition and a Styrix and am just waiting on international shipping.

Good call, I think the Styrix is the dark horse of the book. Let us know how he turns out, I have a feeling the volkite gun on him has utility. Krak missile, 5 shots and Deflagrate...MC's really don't like the sound of that, neither do tanks.

[Battybattybats]

 

I think some of it is still in the Tyranid book, although its massively condensed. Sadly 'Stealers are but a shadow of the former glory in rules terms...here's hoping a dataslate for Cults comes along someday.

 

 

That or Forgeworld. I think that, despite the high cost, Forgeworld would be the ideal. Alas unless they expand i don't see that happening with the current heresy focus.

 

 

Genestealers aren't the best close-combat unit in the game, haven't been for some time now. It's really sad how far they've fallen. The first blow (and probably mortal) was Rending going from hits to wounds. Losing biomorphs with the move from 4th to 5th was another (killed Carnifex too), and now with 6th and 7th adding in no charges from Outflank, Interceptor and Overwatch...I feel so sorry for all the people who went Stealer Shock lists in 4th and 5th. They've had their whole army gutted repeatedly.

 

In 1st ed every single Genestealer had a hypnotic gaze attack before combat even started, as well as fear, as well as being -1 to hit if they moved their full move (most units moved 4, ran/charged 8, Genestealers moved 6 ran/charged 12! Moving 10+ got the -1 to hit) and their strength gave a -3 save modifier so was the same as a power sword. So going to rending in the first place was a nerf, but 2nd eds parry from swords nerfed them a little even though few things other than dual-bonesword warriors rivalled them.

 

Every edition nerfs genestealers further without exception. When a friend tried a 2nd ed game and saw just what they originally were like i joked that the only explanation is that the current rules writers are still suffering PTSD flashbacks and nightmares from the early editions and are still nerfing them every chance they can get long after the threat has gone.

 

Good call, I think the Styrix is the dark horse of the book. Let us know how he turns out, I have a feeling the volkite gun on him has utility. Krak missile, 5 shots and Deflagrate...MC's really don't like the sound of that, neither do tanks.

 

Admitedly i've got it based on the looks, the Omnissian-skull face being very much appropriate to my House Cydonia style (with the cog-haloed skull House emblem i made it's a providence only divinity can explain :D ). The only reason i didn't get a Mageara when they hit preorder was i'd seen some of the event pics of the Styrix so started setting cash aside for that. I tend to go with what i like and what fits story-wise and then try not to be too easily defeated from there. Though so far my friends haven't come to grips with the one knight i have been fielding so i've been doing quite well.