salamanders 2000pts ideas

[cassian dracos]

I am just getting started with 30k but I have looked into it for a while now and I have made this army list that is slightly over 2k pts and I was hoping to get some feedback on what to take out to make it 2k. Any feedback is much appreciated

 

Praetor: mantle of the elder drake, cataphractii terminator armour, master crafted

chainfist, a storm shield and digi lasers 195pts

 

Pride of the legion

 

4x 5man terminator squads each with: a reaper autocannon, 4 power fists and a

chain fist. 880pts

 

 

Typhoon siege tank with lascannon sponson. 390pts

 

2x vindicators each with machine spirit. 290pts

 

2x mortis contemptors each with twin lascannons. 370 pts

 

 

 

Total 2125pts

[infyrana]

You could begin by making 2x 10-man terminator squads (or even 3x 6-7 man squads).  Whilst not as flexible, base squad prices are more costly than when you add the same amount of marines extra.  In addition, do you need them ALL to have power fists over power weapons which they come with as standard?  Drop a few fists for some initiative weapons perhaps (swords, or even axes).

 

You don't always need all the mods on each of your tanks, that will shave off some more points and allow you to begin a few games at least fielding the models all together to see if it would work.

[cassian dracos]

Maybe the 3 smaller units but not 2 big ones, it prevents overkill from moritats and vindicators etc, and also allows me to take objectives in my half as well as my opponents, the upgrades I have on my tanks I think are all necessary though, my vindicators zoom around 12" a turn dropping down templates and my typhon has its lascannon to destroy transports so that it can drop its template. And is not power fists what would you suggest?

[infyrana]

Correct me if I am wrong, but power fists are +5 points and you are trying to shave points.  I already suggested that perhaps use the basic power weapons that come free with terminators, which can include swords, mauls and axes.  Take a mix of swords, axes and fists / chain fists.  If you face armour, remove the power swords/axes first, and keep the fist models till last.  I only suggested to drop a few, not all.

 

But, it would seem that as you are already fixed on all the units you have available the way they are currently setup, I'm guessing I can't help further with my limited experience.

[Moonstalker]

Welcome to the B&C.  Please do not be scared, I only yell to help you.

 

Maybe the 3 smaller units but not 2 big ones, it prevents overkill from moritats and vindicators etc, and also allows me to take objectives in my half as well as my opponents, the upgrades I have on my tanks I think are all necessary though, my vindicators zoom around 12" a turn dropping down templates and my typhon has its lascannon to destroy transports so that it can drop its template. And is not power fists what would you suggest?

 

Maybe I'm misreading your intention here, but you can't have the Typhon pop a transport with its lascannons and then shoot the guys inside with the main gun in the same turn - all the shooting for the unit has to be declared at the same time, you can't hold one gun back to wait for the others.  It's a flawed concept anyways, since the majority of the transports you are going to see will be Spartans with Flare Shields.  Rhinos just aren't very common when the best way to take your tac squads is in 15-20 man blobs, and Land Raiders just aren't as point-efficient as Spartans.

 

MC Chainfist on the Praetor is a waste.  He's in Cata armor, he can't run, any vehicle will just waltz away from him, so you might as well save the points and make it a powerfist.  Any infantry can walk away from him, too, for that matter.  That is the entire conundrum with footslogging terminator lists.  If you take Tartaros armor, they may not survive to make it into combat without the invul save.  If you take Cataphractii armor, they will not make it into melee at all.  You're worried about overkill from a Moritat?  Think about what a Tactical Squad will do when you walk right up to them (and you will walk up to them, because you have no other choice - they have way more shooting power than your terminators, who are melee-focused).  80 shots under Fury of the Legion will kill four and might kill all five of your terminators.  Considering they'd also have gotten a crack at your guys once or twice while you waddled your way in from 24 to 12 inches, you will be lucky to make it into combat with 1/4 of the footslogging terminators you've put on the board.

 

"But I'll drop blast templates on them!"  No, you won't, because you'll be pissing your power armor over everything else your opponent brings that could be gunning down your terminators, or might be killing your vehicles.  Your footslogging terminator squads straight-up lose to tactical marines on a point for point basis.  40 tac marines with apothecaries, vexillas, etc is going to clock in at 2/3 the point cost of your terminator squads, so whatever 'advantage' you think you have in your heavy support/lord of war is actually a disadvantage.  You cannot spend more points than your opponent in those areas, he will have more and scarier things than you.  Converting all of your powerfists to power axes as infyrana suggests is a start, but in the end it only saves you 80 points (bringing you down to 800 points spent on your troops, compared to our theoretical opponent's 660 on 40 tac marines and 2 apothecaries plus squad upgrades).  You're still looking at being 2-300 points in the hole.  Why 2-300?  Because of your Praetor.  Until he gets into combat, he's just dead weight marching across the table, adding nothing to your army through abilities, psychic powers, USRs, etc.  He's just a melee murder machine, and outside of melee he's just a slow-moving brick.  Your opponent could've brought an HQ that is actually actively helping their army while costing fewer points.

 

 

The concept of bringing lots of big blast templates on vehicles that move 12 inches a turn has merit.  Footslogging terminators does not.

 

Edit: These issues are only exacerbated if you insist on trying to hold back half the terminators to hold home objectives while sending the other half forward.  Then you are just splitting yourself up for the enemy to kill you at his leisure.

[cassian dracos]

TO large tactical blobs with apothecaries is what the typhoon and vindicators are for and ye good point about the typhoon I'll drop the lascannons, and its an extra 5 pts for a chain fist over a power fist its worth it rather than a thunder hammer. I'll maybe make 3 6 man terminator squads like what infyrana said, but I don't see the point in dropping 80 points for power axes when I can use power fists, but I do understand your point about the only assaulting with half the termies that was very stupid of me. Last but not least I don't understand the point you are trying to make in your 3rd paragraph, please can you explain.

 

I will have dropped now altogether with the new 6 man termie squads and the base typhoon enough to put me at 1970pts if I've done the maths right.

[Moonstalker]

I really had two points in that paragraph.  My first was a pre-emptive counter to this:

 

 

large tactical blobs with apothecaries is what the typhoon and vindicators are for

 

The enemy that brings those large tactical blobs and apothecaries can afford to spend less on his troops than you do because his troops are more effective than yours.  He might (not necessarily will, but he might) have a cheaper HQ that contributes more throughout the battle.  This means he has more points to spend on things that your Vindicators and Typhon should be afraid of.  It is hard for your Vindicators and Typhoon to shoot at enemy tactical squads when they are either dead or trying to defend themselves from the extra anti-tank your opponent could afford because he brought cheaper, more effective troops and HQ choices.

 

The second is that your HQ is slow, expensive, and lacks any ranged attack or ability to help the rest of your army.  It will take him 4 turns to move 24 inches because he cannot run.  That is 4 turns where 1/10th of your total points is doing nothing besides get shot at.  He has no ranged weapons.  He cannot run.  He has no transport.  He cannot deep strike.  It will take him 4 turns just to close the distance between the edge of your deployment zone and the enemy's, just in a straight line.  If there is terrain, if the enemy deploys further back in his deployment zone than the edge, then it will take even longer to get him into melee.  You can use him as a 'tank' for one of your squads, try to bounce low AP fire using his storm shield, but that will fall apart as soon as you run into high volume fire - you roll enough 2+ armor saves and you will eventually roll 1's.  And space marine legions have a lot of high volume firepower.

 

The same is true of your other terminators.  If they're Cataphractii, they cannot run.  Their ranged firepower is pathetic.  Their only hope of dealing real damage is in melee, and it will take them over half the game to get there.  They will die to massed bolter fire.  Tartaros terminators can at least run, and maybe make it into melee on turn 2 if they're really lucky, but they are just as weak to massed bolter fire as Cataphractii, and they're weaker to things like Predator Executioners and Vindicators because of their invul save.

 

If you want this list to work, you need transports.

[cassian dracos]

The problem is though that the only transports that can take termites are WAY to many points, I would have to change the entire army just to fit them. But I do see your point however and thinking about it the only valid way to run cataphractii termites is with deep striking or transports. I will just make the army imperial fist and replace the praetor and termites with breachers and polux.