Competitive Essentials for BA

[knife&fork]

After the tourney I've had some thought about how I could have gotten together a 'good' list. Getting a hard list from our codex is a bit like drawing blood from a stone. But since I'm one of those stubborn people who don't want to codex hop it's what I'll do. 

 

There are a few things I consider to be essential if we want to run a good list with a BA main detachment: 

 

Mephiston (primarily rolling Biomancy)

Frag cannon dread in pod (probably two)

10 sternguard in a pod (combiweapons optional)

vanguard vets with packs and melta bombs

stormraven (mephistons' ride)

 

Depending on loadouts 1050-1100 pts.

 

All of the above are what I'd like to think of as our essential tools, our problem solvers. Against any reasonable matchup I'll need all of them or all but one. If I my list doesn't include one them I'm very likely to run into a situation where they will be missed. 

 

 

With these units we are lacking in a few departments, scoring being the obvious one. There's also turn one fire support, the need to deal with 2+ saves, more than 2 flyers, monsters, mechanized or any combination thereof. 

 

Do you agree with the list above? How would you fill out the rest of the points?

Let's hear it. 

 

 

[Chaplain Admetus]

I disagree that we need ALL of them. I've always found Mephy to be better with his book powers as he needs wings to get around; popping him in the raven means he's useless for at least 2 turns, possibly not getting to do anything until turn 5; up until turn 3 minimum you're guaranteed to be fighting 250 points down, and that's a hefty handicap.

 

I've played 3 or 4 games with a fragioso in a pod - it's kick ass. Really solid, but our elites slots are congested so I'd question the use of two. Sternguard in a pod - I've had good use with 7 or so with combi-meltas (tragically I only have access to one pod at the moment, so I can't run both the sternguard and the fragioso in the same list). I'd take meltas as the combi-of choice, as special issue ammo has you covered against anything with a toughness value. Also I like to run a single ACTUAL melta in place of a combi in case of emergencies. (General unit is 3 combi-meltas, 1 regular melta, and 3 boltguns).

 

Vanguard vets are a good buy. But I'd keep the squad size down... 5 guys to save on points. Specific loadout would really depend on the rest of your list.

 

Now, onto things I'd add - multi-melta attack bikes. These things are kick ass. Great anti-mech, can put a dent in monstrous creatures, and it's a rare list indeed that doesn't have a good target for them. Even 4 T5 3+ wounds (I run a squad of 2) can tie something up in combat for a while, and if there's no good target they make a great nuisance unit that has to be dealt with before it pinches linebreaker/contests an objective.

 

Sanguinary Priests - dependent on the rest of the list. I play jump-heavy, so I like having one around to make them a little more survivable.

 

My go-to ranged gun of choice - the assault cannon. I run a Baal with twin-linked assault cannon and heavy bolters, and a storm raven with assault cannon/melta. Those cannons have scraped me out of a tight spot on more times than I care to count.

 

Regular librarians. With the advent of allies and cheap battle brother psykers, we're better off getting divination support from another source. I'm testing lists that run librarians with fear and shield, as the cover aspect is handy and you can just leadership-bomb certain armies off the table (Tau, I'm looking at you).

 

Those are my thoughts, mostly borne out by experience, but YMMV. I'm going to a tournament myself next weekend, going to post up a thread shortly with my preparations, then post-tournament opinions and see if my feelings change on the other side.

[ianj253]

Love the fragisio, but in my local meta it has had diminishing returns. My FLGS is decently competetive and many list are designed to deny first blood. Good players will see the fragisio and reserve there squishy targets. I have found it to be a liability in some games because it or the pod may give up first blood, which in tight games can really make a difference. 

 

I always take Mephiston's book powers too.  Without them he's too slow and like chaplain said if he's in a raven he can be a liability. In my last game he was in a raven and didn't come on until turn 4.  

[knife&fork]

If you are worried about your dread, pod empty and have him ride the raven. Or pod him in a safe location and move him with the raven later. 

I don't like running single pods either, part of the reason I want more turn 1 firepower is to demech early and not have to 'waste' the sternguard or fragioso.

 

In my experience Mephiston is slow if he depends on 'wings'. Having codex powers is no guarantee that he will reach combat faster compared to being mounted in the raven. In fact I've found the opposite to be true. With the raven he can potentially be anywhere on the board turn 2 and in assault turn 3. Can't say the same about 'wings'. 

 

I'd also say that Mephiston is way too fragile to run on foot. He gets killed all the time if you do that, but with biomancy he'll live.

The only time I've lost him since I stopped using codex powers was a game where I rolled 3 double 6 perils on 6 psychic tests. Other than that he has always survived, usually with full wounds. Normal Mephiston will die to many things, including all basic weapons on eldar. Some combos are better than others (like iron arm + endurance) but everything in biomancy (except the primaris) is extremely useful to a beatstick like him. 

[Chaplain Admetus]

I'll be honest, I've only tried Mephy with rulebook powers a few times. However, the most recent one (two games ago) was an unmitigated disaster, and Wings was the reason he was essential to winning the last game I fielded him. Play him smart, and you can hide him. I also prefer the flexibility - it's an often overlooked facet that Mephiston is an exceptional defensive unit, in part because there's very few things that want to go anywhere near him.

 

Here's something I've been toying with though - Mephiston, or two Librarians? A librarian with jump pack and a librarian with termy armour (both with Shield of Sanguinius and Fear of the Darkness) both come in at the same point cost. The latter would sit back in a defensive role and support a firebase, and act as warlord; the former advances and supports the assault elements of the list. Fear is a great power to nail things in the 1-2 turns the assault marines are closing the gap before assault, and the termy librarian can swap his powers for divination powers and operate in a supporting role, or keep Fear against an army vulnerable to leadership shenanigans (Tau, and Guard are the main two), but it's also decent against shooty marine lists, as if they lack a sergeant they're testing on Ld 6.

 

Its basically a balancing act between the devastating damage output and survivability of Mephiston, or the more interesting options of the support buffs.

[Rafen IX]

Fork I agree with you on those being almost our codex's blue chip units, variations thereof notwithstanding. I've also found running meph in a raven is a fantastic way to threaten any army plus he runs no risk of being ID from the stormraven getting blown out of the sky (which I am profoundly sick of, almost to the point where I drop sternguard in to kill the icurus lascannon I invariably seem to face.)

I haven't really trialed him with biomancy yet. The ability to strength 10 is sometimes deal breaking. I also have just the one DP so depending on the enemy either the fragioso or the sternguard ride it down.

 

I'd like to add an honorary member to the blood angel auto include, Corbulo. That guy makes a fantastic addition to almost any army (except possibly jump heavy ones.) I won't go into combos because the majority should be apparent, but he has won me games keeping units alive or using that vital re roll.

 

R

[knife&fork]

 The ability to strength 10 is sometimes deal breaking. I also have just the one DP so depending on the enemy either the fragioso or the sternguard ride it down.

 

I'd like to add an honorary member to the blood angel auto include, Corbulo. That guy makes a fantastic addition to almost any army (except possibly jump heavy ones.) I won't go into combos because the majority should be apparent, but he has won me games keeping units alive or using that vital re roll.

 

R

 

I thought I would miss that S10 a lot more than I actually ended up doing. Instagibbing T4-5 without having to use the force weapon can be nice, but rarely do I find myself without a warpcharge. Vehicles are not much of a problem as most are AV10 in cc anyway, plus you get the opportunity to lower toughness and increase S via biomancy powers. BA usually have enough melta to not worry about the rare vehicles with rear AV11 and above.

 

I'm actually interested in how you would use corbulo as I have a hard time justifying his cost and the elite slot. 

[Midnightmare]

To be fair, I have gravitated to using Meph, two Fraggies and a Raven most games. I haven't used such a big Sternguard though, but can for sure see their merits.

 

I think you have the list spot on.

[Plague Angel]

If I'm already planning on taking priests and I have any non-jump units, the upgrade from foot-priest to Corbulo is worth it. He costs barely more than a jump priest, can be as survivable as a Terminator, and that reroll is a nice psychological boost.

[Chaplain Admetus]

Problem with Corbulo is finding a place for him. I've been running him in my list (see my batrep thread) but dropped him after a few games as he just wasn't adding enough. He's very list-dependent; unlike the other choices you can't just throw him into an army and expect him to be good.

 

Effectively, the units you've listed I'd say are our A rank units; always going to be good. Corbulo would be a great example of a B+ unit - he simply doesn't go in every list, but if there's a good place for him (i.e. hammernators) he is outstanding

[Plague Angel]

See, I've never had much luck with Stormravens; they always get shot down for me and kill most everyone inside. Whereas a unit of Assault Terminators with even one TH/SS in it (usually more, obvs) with Corbulo along has brought me great success. Those six models are directly responsible for me winning more games than any other single unit I've fielded.

[ianj253]

I agree with chaplain on Mephiston. If you utilize his size to hide him, he easily makes it across the battlefield at or almost at full wounds. The str 10 is really important in my list and it makes Mephiston so versaitle. Also turns him into quite the MC killer. Especially when you're using him to bring down a riptide where you want to make your oppoent roll as many dice so he fails that 1 save for the ID. I think were going to see an increase in the amount of Russes on the table and it will come in handy here too. Mephiston also has taken down an Imperial Knight in CC, which wouldn't have happened without the str 10 .

Two of the best players at my store run nasty flying circus list. Fateweaver, Grimoire Tzentch Prince, Slaneesh lash prince, Be'lakor and a Heldrake. The Fragisio does nothing to this list and it was the main reason I stopped taking it.

I'd love to be able to use vanguard Vet's but there are also Tau players who take 2 riptides and misslesides. The vet's will just get intercepted off the board.

I'm always a little peeved when taking a Libby knowing that C:SM get's a Lvl 2 Libby with jump pack for 20 points cheaper than our level 1 with jump pack. Fear is awesome though, and I've even used it to make a unit of braodsides + commander run off the board. I think Pascal's drop podded furioso Librains aren't a bad idea for this shear purpose.

[Cronhour]

 

 

The ability to strength 10 is sometimes deal breaking. I also have just the one DP so depending on the enemy either the fragioso or the sternguard ride it down.

 

I'd like to add an honorary member to the blood angel auto include, Corbulo. That guy makes a fantastic addition to almost any army (except possibly jump heavy ones.) I won't go into combos because the majority should be apparent, but he has won me games keeping units alive or using that vital re roll.

 

R

I thought I would miss that S10 a lot more than I actually ended up doing. Instagibbing T4-5 without having to use the force weapon can be nice, but rarely do I find myself without a warpcharge. Vehicles are not much of a problem as most are AV10 in cc anyway, plus you get the opportunity to lower toughness and increase S via biomancy powers. BA usually have enough melta to not worry about the rare vehicles with rear AV11 and above.

 

I'm actually interested in how you would use corbulo as I have a hard time justifying his cost and the elite slot.

corbs with the sternguard, I tend to run him with 7-9 sternguard getting firstblood from the melta and then using corbs to tank wounds, played against a tau player last night, corbs must have tanked 50 wounds for the sternguard then the tac squad he joined later, I got creamed but I had a stupid list with new forgeworld toys i just wanted to try out. I don't bother if it's a 5 man unit as you want the higher numbers to soak the odd str 8 and above shots that may come your way. If you want a cheap first blood mechanic you can just drop a 5 man sternguard all with meltas it costs the same as a fragioso pod but you have 5 shots versus one to get the vp, i've heard of people running a gunslinging inferus pistol assault sergant and 2 meltas in a pod but thats more expensive and leads to you dropping troops turn one and worrying about dropping outside that 6 inch range.

 

Incidently meph in a raven was a bust in that list, raven got velocity locked, i used skies of blood to get him out as otherwise he would have 0 impact on the game but he failed his test on puppetmaster then just went down to shooting in the opponents turn, sure it took almost all of his shooting but he did take him out, 450 points off the board until turn 3 I needed him to make an impact.

 

My other auto include in a pod list is a death company pod with bolters and a couple of power weapons, rapid firing the turn they arrive they can do some decent damage then they have rapid fire bolters with 4 attacks each on the charge with unchallengeable power weapons. Then your opponent has 2 tough dangerous units in his backfield to give him difficult choices with the rest of your army moving up.

 

I switched to sternguard after having a lot of bad experiences with furiosos, I like the idea of them but in a pod they often seem to whiff then get taken straight away, they often failed to get me FB and gave it away cheaply. If i upgrade to five pods the third on turn one will probably be a fragioso though, melta sternguard with corbs tank, fragioso and death company dropping turn one, it's around 800 points fully maxed out but you can drop a man or two from the squads to shave points and remain effective.

[knife&fork]

To be fair, I have gravitated to using Meph, two Fraggies and a Raven most games. I haven't used such a big Sternguard though, but can for sure see their merits.

 

I think you have the list spot on.

Taking a full 10 man hits that critical mass where their bolters can wipe out entire units, with the benefit of being able to combat squad. Splitting them into two separate targets as well as having the option to use different ammo on different enemy units in the same phase can be very good.

 

An example of this happened in a game vs Eldar: My opponent was running a squad of wraithguards, a real PITA unit for BA to deal with. I pod down the Sternguards and place both combat squads just inside of rapid fire range. First I unleash on the wraithguard with one of the combat squads using hellfire ammo. I roll a little above average and he fails a lot of saves, leaving only 1 model. Since that unit is now pretty harmless I decide to open up on a unit of guardians camping an objective behind the aegis instead of overkilling the last wraithguard. Ignore cover rounds takes a huuuge chunk out of the guardians and I've now crippled his return fire.

Overall a great ROI that wouldn't be possible with only one unit.

 

 

See, I've never had much luck with Stormravens; they always get shot down for me and kill most everyone inside. Whereas a unit of Assault Terminators with even one TH/SS in it (usually more, obvs) with Corbulo along has brought me great success. Those six models are directly responsible for me winning more games than any other single unit I've fielded.

Do you footslog them? I agree that one shouldn't put anything that can't survive a crash in a raven. Unless you bring a small throw away scoring unit or have multiples.

I agree with chaplain on Mephiston. If you utilize his size to hide him, he easily makes it across the battlefield at or almost at full wounds.

And then what? Even if you don't miss a single psychic test, charge or run move on the way there you can still get oneshotted by force and distort, or turned into fine mist by a cheap eldar blade storm. The survivability boost from biomancy is great and you'll probably take that raven anyway. If your raven survives (and arrives early) it can also be used to redeploy units across the board, something that has won me games.

 

Admittedly units like the vanguards and the fragioso won't have great targets vs all lists, but sure there's some use for them? Worst case hide them out of sight or risk a really aggressive deep strike that won't allow risk free intercept shots. On their own they are both vulnerable, they kinda depend on threat saturation if they are to survive.

 

Fear of the darkness is great, but a lot of things are immune to it. Rolling on telepathy you can get terrify or failing that psychic shriek. Great powers with lots of utility.

 

Oh, and if you are up against flying monstrous creatures a lot.... do you know whats really, really funny? Casting 'enfeeble' on a FMC and then instgibbing it with a grounding test :P

[Plague Angel]

 

 

 

See, I've never had much luck with Stormravens; they always get shot down for me and kill most everyone inside. Whereas a unit of Assault Terminators with even one TH/SS in it (usually more, obvs) with Corbulo along has brought me great success. Those six models are directly responsible for me winning more games than any other single unit I've fielded.

Do you footslog them? I agree that one shouldn't put anything that can't survive a crash in a raven. Unless you bring a small throw away scoring unit or have multiples.

 

I do. I admit I rarely play games larger than 1500 points, so 200+ single models like Mephiston or transports more expensive than a Razorback make me blanch a bit. That surely colors my local meta. I've found the unit so reliable, though, that at larger point games I'd readily put them in a Land Raider for delivery.

[ianj253]

And then what? Even if you don't miss a single psychic test, charge or run move on the way there you can still get oneshotted by force and distort, or turned into fine mist by a cheap eldar blade storm. 

 

And these thing's can't happen when he rolls Biomancy?  My problem with rolling book powers is, Mephiston only gets 2 rolls and half of the biomancy powers aren't useful. 

[knife&fork]

And these thing's can't happen when he rolls Biomancy?  My problem with rolling book powers is, Mephiston only gets 2 rolls and half of the biomancy powers aren't useful. 

 

They can, but not to the same extent. As for biomancy, the worst power is probably haemorrage, but other than that it's all great for Mephiston as we want him to be in combat and we have no reason to pick the worthless primaris.

 

Iron arm is rather obvious. WIth EW and even better T there's not much to fear.

 

Enfeeble is great as well, even though blessings are better than maledictions. Can potentially be cast on something the rest of your army is targeting, lowering that ID threshold on multiwound models is handy. Making some units unable to hurt Mephiston at all is great as well.

 

Endurance, having FnP and IWND on a T6 W5 2+ model makes everything but  ID very ineffective.

 

Life leech lets you dish out damage and replenish wounds at the same time. Witchfires are a lot better on Mephiston compared to regular librarians thanks to his higher ML and better BS.

 

With Warp speed very few models in the game will strike before you do. Also give you enough attacks to plow through larger groups of enemies or volume to force 2+ saves.

 

 

What powers you roll will have a small influence on where to use him. Roll the Endurance + Iron arm combo and he can just get in the middle of things with no fear. Life leech + warp speed? Send him hunting MEQ or MCs.  If you get exactly what you need (like endurance when facing IG/AM) on the first roll you can always use the second for divination or telepathy.  

[Cronhour]

 

And then what? Even if you don't miss a single psychic test, charge or run move on the way there you can still get oneshotted by force and distort, or turned into fine mist by a cheap eldar blade storm. 

 

And these thing's can't happen when he rolls Biomancy?  My problem with rolling book powers is, Mephiston only gets 2 rolls and half of the biomancy powers aren't useful. 

some one said this to me the other night and i think it's people just being niggly for the sake of it it's pretty clear that it's meant to be tied to mastery level which is why they mention his mastery level 3 in the FAQ, thankfully the most up to date version of the rules clarify that he gets 3 rolls. I've heard they're updating the FAQ's before putting them back up and I hope they make the disinction for those without digital codexs as I find that people arguing the issue is pretty petty, just download a screenshot of meph in the digital codex until they do, hell if you need one pop me your email in a pm and i'll screenshot it and send it out to you.

[RenderDead]

Mephiston (primarily rolling Biomancy) Agree (Not entirely with just Biomancy)

Frag cannon dread in pod (probably two) Agree

10 sternguard in a pod (combiweapons optional) No (Maybe not enough testing with them for me to take such a high number, I like having priests if I run multiple Furiosos)

vanguard vets with packs and melta bombs No (Points, I rather take attack bikes)

stormraven (mephistons' ride) Hit or Miss (Hard to say, in most games I hate my flyer because it under performs, but I can't deny I need air support).

 

 

 

[Morticon]

I find the following (its gonna echo what most have said):

 

Mephiston - without a doubt.  I run him 95% of the time with wings though, I prefer my points on the board - his tactical options are broader I find.

 

Ravens - entirely. Take two.

 

Fraggy dreads- incredible.

 

Vanguard - depends on points and game type and if youre against titans.  

 

Would like to add corbulo into the mix.  IF you're playing  a priest in your list.  If youre not playing a priest at all, then its not necessary.  But the 2+ FNP and the reroll are a godsend.

[Chaplain Admetus]

I'm actually going to buck the trend and take a pair of librarians in place of Mephiston for my tournament next week. I think I prefer it slightly given the rest of the list. But it's close.

[ianj253]

 

 

some one said this to me the other night and i think it's people just being niggly for the sake of it it's pretty clear that it's meant to be tied to mastery level which is why they mention his mastery level 3 in the FAQ, thankfully the most up to date version of the rules clarify that he gets 3 rolls. I've heard they're updating the FAQ's before putting them back up and I hope they make the disinction for those without digital codexs as I find that people arguing the issue is pretty petty, just download a screenshot of meph in the digital codex until they do, hell if you need one pop me your email in a pm and i'll screenshot it and send it out to you.

Where are the rules that say this? In the psychic power app and the FAQ he only can take 2.

[Cronhour]

 

 

 

some one said this to me the other night and i think it's people just being niggly for the sake of it it's pretty clear that it's meant to be tied to mastery level which is why they mention his mastery level 3 in the FAQ, thankfully the most up to date version of the rules clarify that he gets 3 rolls. I've heard they're updating the FAQ's before putting them back up and I hope they make the disinction for those without digital codexs as I find that people arguing the issue is pretty petty, just download a screenshot of meph in the digital codex until they do, hell if you need one pop me your email in a pm and i'll screenshot it and send it out to you.

Where are the rules that say this? In the psychic power app and the FAQ he only can take 2.

Digital codex, and I would say the FAQ language is ambiguious at best, I think it's pretty obvious as he's clarified as ML3 elsewhere that the mention of mephistion in the passage is to show he can take rulebook powers as opposed to limiting him to 2 with the other librarians, even before I had the digital codex i was having no issues running 3 rulebook powers at the local gw and only bought the ipad version on a whim to limit what i need to carry around. As for the psychic power app I'm not sure I've seen it, but here is the screenshot

[Morticon]

What FAQ ? :P

[Bartali]

Rather than specify units, I reckon these are the three lists that work for BA.

 

1. Corbulo star. Usually Terminators+ allied psychic support

2. Fear/Telepathy bomb. 2x Libs, 3x Furioso Libs

3. Stormravens. Used as assault boats for Meph/Terminators/Furioso Dreads. Needs table with LOS blocking terrain to hide troops.