The Serpent Beneath - Omegon

[Kol Saresk]

As well as influencing it. Just because a Farseer casts runes, it does not mean the response is free of daemonic influence. Take Path of the Incubus for example. A Tzeentchian daemon influenced a farseer's casting. So the casting can be corrupted. But eldar society probably preaches no such thing can happen and since these "false castings" probably always result in no surviving witness, it is easy to hide.

[Anvilarium]

Maybe the Nemesis Force Halberd on his statue is actually The Pale Spear

 

The Pale Spear is almost identical in description to the Soulspear - the unique weapon owned by the Soul Drinkers chapter in the 41st Millenium, which 'supposedly' belonged to Rogal Dorn. Basically like Darth Maul's double-bladed lightsaber, but with black energy blades.

 

This puts an interesting spin on the Soul Drinkers, as up until now they were believed to be a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists that have fallen to the corruption of Chaos. It would be fascinating to find out that they were instead a sleeper faction of the Alpha Legion!

[mc warhammer]

i like this, urza.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually the "Imperial Fist Successor" line was killed in Phalanx. Through study of the gene-seed by the Angels Sanguine, it was determined they had no common genetic markers with the Fists. The Fists also had no records of the Soulspear or of any connecting records to the Soul Drinkers. Of course, all of this was "proven" after Lysander activated the gene-locked Soulspear. So take a wild guess of which rumor just became #1.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

Maybe the Nemesis Force Halberd on his statue is actually The Pale Spear

The Pale Spear is almost identical in description to the Soulspear - the unique weapon owned by the Soul Drinkers chapter in the 41st Millenium, which 'supposedly' belonged to Rogal Dorn. Basically like Darth Maul's double-bladed lightsaber, but with black energy blades.

 

This puts an interesting spin on the Soul Drinkers, as up until now they were believed to be a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists that have fallen to the corruption of Chaos. It would be fascinating to find out that they were instead a sleeper faction of the Alpha Legion!

If the Soulspear is likened to Darth Maul's lightsaber, but black, then how could it be Alpharius' spear?

 

http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/images/archive/9/95/20120715213211!Alpharius_by_John_Blanche.jpg

[Perrin]

That's a pretty old image though, I don't think the Pale Spear is based on that in any way other than "Oh Alpharius has a spear". Also I don't think the Soulspear is like a lightsaber, I think it's more like a spear with void spear heads on each end.

 

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rather than

 

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<]====[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Kais Klip]

Might as well swing for the fences here, but there's also the case of an official entry on Omegon missing; might he be in the future books, under Malcador's agents/part of the development alongside Shattered Legions (although I don't see any potential for night lord list development any more than that of the XXth, short of Omegon's operatives)? By the time they roll around off the print, BL should have covered any development that is to occur.

[Xin Ceithan]

Regarding the image, isn't that supposed to be the Khan? Dorn is shown with short, white hair and helmetless in John Blanche's art.

 

Also, even if there is a split / CivilWar brewing here, who says that other twin is siding with the Emperor?

More loosly on the topic:

Why are there No Horus siding defectors in the loyal legions that we know of? Everyone and their mother is a loyalist at heart these days...

(Ok, "Scars" touched the subject)

[Anvilarium]

If the Soulspear is likened to Darth Maul's lightsaber, but black, then how could it be Alpharius' spear?

The Pale Spear

(Horus Heresy Vol.III - Extermination. pg.265)

This was one of a number of strange and esoteric weapons associated with the Primarch and rumoured to be a strange xenos artefact whose forging predated even the rise of the Eldar. This double-bladed spear flickered seemingly out of phase with the material universe when wielded, emitting an eerie and otherworldly howling, and was able to pierce any physical defence it encountered without impediment, ripping them apart at a molecular level. Against living matter, it inflicted hideously gaping bloodless wounds as the flesh where it struck dissolved into oily smoke.

(emphasis mine)

Also, the weapon wielded in that old picture is not the Pale Spear. From the looks of it, it has a axe/scythe blade at the top and a scythe blade at the bottom, making it more of a double-bladed halberd - definitely not a spear!

[Kol Saresk]

Regarding the image, isn't that supposed to be the Khan? Dorn is shown with short, white hair and helmetless in John Blanche's art.

 

Also, even if there is a split / CivilWar brewing here, who says that other twin is siding with the Emperor?

More loosly on the topic:

Why are there No Horus siding defectors in the loyal legions that we know of? Everyone and their mother is a loyalist at heart these days...

(Ok, "Scars" touched the subject)

Sword of Truth hit upon it as well.

 

@Urza: I don't recall the Soulspear "screaming", but my memory may be faulty. Also, it doesn't explain why Lysander(supposedly an Imperial Fist) could use it.

[Anvilarium]

@Urza: I don't recall the Soulspear "screaming", but my memory may be faulty. Also, it doesn't explain why Lysander(supposedly an Imperial Fist) could use it.

Me either - which is why I only bolded the parts of the Pale Spear's description which were similar to the Soulspear

[Perrin]

The Soulspear (iirc) was a double-headed spear with void blades, not a spear that phased in-and-out of reality.

 

The effect the Pale Spear has on contact with flesh also doesn't match the Soulspear, nor does the "eerie and otherworldly howling"

 

Lastly, the whole Soul Drinkers thing is a Tzeentch plot, not an Alpha Legion one. The AL aren't mentioned at all, nor even hinted at.

 

Which all makes me think that although the Soulspear and Pale Spear sound similar, intended or not, they aren't the same thing. imo.

[Anvilarium]

The Soulspear (iirc) was a double-headed spear with void blades, not a spear that phased in-and-out of reality.

The effect the Pale Spear has on contact with flesh also doesn't match the Soulspear, nor does the "eerie and otherworldly howling"

Lastly, the whole Soul Drinkers thing is a Tzeentch plot, not an Alpha Legion one. The AL aren't mentioned at all, nor even hinted at.

Which all makes me think that although the Soulspear and Pale Spear sound similar, intended or not, they aren't the same thing. imo.

I don't think anyone can really say either way - I was just pointing out the marked similarities!

Also, the Tzeentchian plot was to pervert the Souldrinkers Chapter from their original course and unknowingly corrupt them beyond redemption in the eyes of the Imperium. That has nothing at all to do with the Chapter's origins - they were supposed to be an Imperial Fists successor Chapter, but this was proved to be untrue and their real origins are unknown..

[DuskRaider]

The whole "Phase in and out" thing makes me thing of Necron weaponry... isn't it hinted at that the Pale Spear is Necrontyr in origin?

[corai]

The whole "Phase in and out" thing makes me thing of Necron weaponry... isn't it hinted at that the Pale Spear is Necrontyr in origin?

I would have thought so. the description of how it works is very similar to the old C'Tan phase blades.

 

Calling it now, Cypher kills Alpharius (or Omegon?) breaks his spear and fashions a knife from it.

[Anvilarium]

The whole "Phase in and out" thing makes me thing of Necron weaponry... isn't it hinted at that the Pale Spear is Necrontyr in origin?

 

It is certainly hinted at that it could be Xenos in origin, and that it is older than the Eldar, so it could very well be a Necrontyr artefact.

[Kol Saresk]

But so wasn't the Soulspear?

 

Honestly, I think the only problem I'd have with the theory is that Lysander can use the Soulspear. Which would mean that he'd have to be Alpha Legion as well, which in turn opens a whole new can of worms.

[Anvilarium]

But so wasn't the Soulspear?

 

Honestly, I think the only problem I'd have with the theory is that Lysander can use the Soulspear. Which would mean that he'd have to be Alpha Legion as well, which in turn opens a whole new can of worms.

 

Perhaps Alpharius knew how to modify the gene-code access - if it was a Necrontyr weapon originally, he would have had to modify it for his own DNA when he originally found it in order to key it to himself.

 

Adding Imperial Fist DNA to the gene-code access would have helped the Fists and their successor Chapters to accept the idea that it was a weapon that originally belonged to Rogal Dorn.

[Perrin]

 

But so wasn't the Soulspear?

 

Honestly, I think the only problem I'd have with the theory is that Lysander can use the Soulspear. Which would mean that he'd have to be Alpha Legion as well, which in turn opens a whole new can of worms.

 

Perhaps Alpharius knew how to modify the gene-code access - if it was a Necrontyr weapon originally, he would have had to modify it for his own DNA when he originally found it in order to key it to himself.

 

Adding Imperial Fist DNA to the gene-code access would have helped the Fists and their successor Chapters to accept the idea that it was a weapon that originally belonged to Rogal Dorn.

 

Or coding it so that any Space Marine can use it. I haven't got the Soul Drinkers series to hand but I can't remember a single instance of a Space Marine (not a SD or IF) trying to use the spear and it failing to work. We know that the AdMech couldn't get it to work, but the only proof of it being genecoded to sons of Dorn is Chapter legends, which have already proven to be unreliable.

 

Do Necrons have DNA anymore? I think it is a Necontryr weapon originally, but not the Soulspear. There are similarities but not enough for me. Alpharius would have had to have the DNA coding fitted himself, or Daenyathos or whoever. There's no way that Necron genecoding (if such a thing exists) would work with biological specimens, ala Space Marines.

[Kol Saresk]

But until Lysander used it, the whole two people(Sarpedon and the other guy who started the Second Chapter War) were both Soul Drinkers. And up until mid-Phalanx, everyone, even the Crimson Fists and Howling Griffons, believed the Soul Drinkers were a Second Founding Chapter.

 

But then, you get the horrible hot mess of Phalanx where Lysander activates the Soul Spear because its gene-coded to his and every other Imperial Fists' gene-seed, the 3rd Company Crimson Fist Captain and the Third Company who in the next Chapter magically turn into the Howling Griffons contingent, Reinez(or whatever that Crimson Fists' name was) and then the magical discovery that the Soul Drinkers actually aren't Imperial Fists and it turns out the undead Soul Drinker way back in the second novel who an Inquisitor believed was an Imperial Fist descendant was able to use Bletcher's Gland, not because of his mutations, but because he had a functioning Bletcher's Gland all along, which is something that even the Soul Drinkers' Apothecaries manage to miss. Because, you know, internal consistency.

 

Sorry for that rant. I just have very strong feelings towards the novel that I was very looking forward to and afterwards wished I could build a time machine, go back in time, gouge out the eyes of my past self before I could read the novel so somewhere there could exist an alternate universe where I was not so disappointed.

[Anvilarium]

Personally, I blame the Alpha Legion. Innacuracies, inconsistencies, ret-cons and outright lies are their forte

The fact that Phalanx is so chock-full of them makes me believe even more that the Souldrinkers are in fact an Alpha Legion sleeper Chapter.

[Conn Eremon]

Who is to say that the Soulspear was actually gene-coded? Did the Soul Drinkers know this because they knew and understand the technology? Or because their traditions and stories told them it was so.

[Kol Saresk]

 

Who is to say that the Soulspear was actually gene-coded? Did the Soul Drinkers know this because they knew and understand the technology? Or because their traditions and stories told them it was so.

I think the Mechanicum identifying a gene-lock and attempting to reverse-engineer it so they could break it was a rather big hint that it exists. I could be wrong though.

[Perrin]

Who is to say that the Soulspear was actually gene-coded? Did the Soul Drinkers know this because they knew and understand the technology? Or because their traditions and stories told them it was so.

 

That's the point I was trying to make. At no point does any marine that ISN'T an Imperial Fist or descendant try or fail to use the Soulspear. With the knowledge that the Soul Drinkers aren't Imperial Fist descendants, but Lysander can still activate the Soulspear, the logical conclusion is that the legends surrounding the Soulspear are made up for Daenyathos' purposes.

 

What Kol says about the AdMech messing with a genelock rings a bell, so if we assume that it was a genelock there are still numerous possibilities that can easily explain it. The most obvious in my mind is that the spear was genelocked to Space Marine DNA, rather than a specific Chapter, or it was coded to Fists AND whichever Legion the Soul Drinkers are actually from.

[Conn Eremon]

The Mechanicum, or certain Tech-priests? Trying to reverse-engineer, as in not succeeding in doing so? I'm not trying to argue against anything, just asking for clarification on something I never read (the Soul Drinkers' saga never really grabbed me back in the day, and my local library had an incomplete set anyways).

 

But it is possible that it was classified wrongly as gene-coded. Or perhaps not wrongly, but they interpreted the knowledge that it was gene-coded incorrectly. Or the Soul Drinkers themselves did. Maybe the AdMech who inspected the thing noted that it took genetic samples of those who wielded it for recognition purposes. The why and for what purpose part was kind of blurry, because attempts to recreate this aspect of the spear were less than successful. But now the Soul Drinkers are armed with the knowledge that it samples their blood and tests it against some form of internal database. So they think that perhaps it is verifying their genetics. But against what? Well, their legends tell them it is a weapon of the former Imperial Fists Legion, of which their legends tell them they are descended from and therefore share blood. So maybe the weapon is verifying that the wielder is a son of Dorn. If that's true, then maybe only a son of Dorn would be allowed to wield the spear. That is, in turn, accepted as logical and understandable, so the explanation spreads and ingrains itself with their legends.

 

I'm not saying that this must be what happened, just that one of the possible explanations for the weapon might be that there was an error in its classification, somewhere down the line, that created and perpetuated a false belief in what it does.